Will Ireland ever have a top level player in tennis?

Chivito550 · 28-01-2019 2:59pm #1

I’ve watched tennis for 25 years and there has never been an Irish player who would regularly qualify for grand slams and go on a decent run every now and again. No man. No woman.

Irish people watch tennis casually. While it’s not super popular, more people probably watch tennis in this country than other sports which we do far better at (athletics, rowing etc).

Why are we so hopeless at tennis?

What can be done about it?

Will we ever have a top 50 ranked player to root for? Maybe even a top 20 player?

[Deleted User] · 28-01-2019 3:23pm

barring a complete freak being born into a wealthy family who love tennis and put a racket in his/her hand at 2 and who can support him/her, being sent abroad at an early age to practice 6 hours a day to Spain/US and not getting involved in other sports like rugby etc can't see it happening.

there have been plenty of Irish people who went to the US on tennis scholarships for university but that's not the way elite players get produced as it's too late.

need to be fully focused on tennis from age 10 and playing it from 4.

walshb · 28-01-2019 4:30pm

It’s too far down the pecking order here...it requires a little bit more than many other more accessible sports. Pumping money into it may help, but likely wasted money..we don’t have the population interest.

Not sure we have the general population make-up to produce naturally good players..

Johnmb · 28-01-2019 5:08pm

We probably have about as much chance of producing a world class player as Scotland... i.e. not much chance at all, but never say never.

[Deleted User] · 28-01-2019 5:48pm

Johnmb wrote: »

We probably have about as much chance of producing a world class player as Scotland... i.e. not much chance at all, but never say never.

the Scots can leverage UK funding so the support and development level is way ahead of what is in place in Ireland to be fair.

Johnmb · 28-01-2019 10:01pm

glasso wrote: »

the Scots can leverage UK funding so the support and development level is way ahead of what is in place in Ireland to be fair.

Not really. Murray went to Spain to train. The LTA in the UK were just as bad as TI, and even more so in Scotland from everything that's been said. Murray was an anomaly, and that's what it'll take for Ireland to get that kind of success. Not impossible, but highly unlikely.

The Golden Miller · 28-01-2019 10:11pm

Tennis here has the stigma of being one of the "queen's" sports. It's origins here are within "the realm", unlike in most other countries where it's just another international sport. The extension of this is the private clubs mentality, it's still a sport of the elite and inaccessible to most. Also, as another follow up, no infrastructure on developing young players

[Deleted User] · 28-01-2019 10:12pm

Johnmb wrote: »

Not really. Murray went to Spain to train. The LTA in the UK were just as bad as TI, and even more so in Scotland from everything that's been said. Murray was an anomaly, and that's what it'll take for Ireland to get that kind of success. Not impossible, but highly unlikely.

he went to Spain off his own back as he saw that his brother (the guy playing doubles now) didn't progress enough.

Even years ago the support in England was leagues ahead of Ireland.

I knew a guy who was on a special tennis scholarship with Tin Henman at a boarding school in the UK from age 12. Henman came out of that.

There was and is nothing like that afaik in Ireland.

Johnmb · 28-01-2019 10:16pm

The Golden Miller wrote: »

Tennis here has the stigma of being one of the "queen's" sports. It's origins here are within "the realm", unlike in most other countries where it's just another international sport. The extension of this is the private clubs mentality, it's still a sport of the elite and inaccessible to most. Also, as another follow up, no infrastructure on developing young players

This is the first time I've ever heard the term "queen's" sports applied to tennis. It has had an elitist reputation though due to the cost of joining clubs, and the former waiting lists, joining fees, etc. They are long gone now though, no joining fees or waiting lists for about 95% of clubs, just show up and join.

TI don't know how to develop young players, or aren't interested because to do it right would require that they move away from the jobs for the boys mentality that runs rampant there...

paul71 · 28-01-2019 10:20pm

I will have to ask my Czech wife how a small country produced the argueably greatest male and and female players ever plus trainline of Grandslam winnerss.

Johnmb · 28-01-2019 10:22pm

glasso wrote: »

he went to Spain off his own back as he saw that his brother (the guy playing doubles now) didn't progress enough.

Even years ago the support in England was leagues ahead of Ireland.

I knew a guy who was on a special tennis scholarship with Tin Henman at a boarding school in the UK from age 12. Henman came out of that.

There was and is nothing like that afaik in Ireland.

The LTA had a reputation, valid or not, for being interested only in England. Scotland barely got a lookin. Judy basically had to fight them for everything, and they still ballsed up Jamie's progression, so the only reason Scotland had such successful players is because of a very stubborn parent, who knew what she was doing, taking her children somewhere else to train. The only way Ireland will get successful players is if an equally stubborn parent, who actually knows what they are doing, takes their child(ren) somewhere else to train.

Remind me · 28-01-2019 10:24pm

glasso wrote: »

barring a complete freak being born into a wealthy family who love tennis and put a racket in his/her hand at 2 and who can support him/her, being sent abroad at an early age to practice 6 hours a day to Spain/US and not getting involved in other sports like rugby etc can't see it happening.

there have been plenty of Irish people who went to the US on tennis scholarships for university but that's not the way elite players get produced as it's too late.

need to be fully focused on tennis from age 10 and playing it from 4.

Why wealthy?

[Deleted User] · 28-01-2019 10:26pm

Johnmb wrote: »

The LTA had a reputation, valid or not, for being interested only in England. Scotland barely got a lookin. Judy basically had to fight them for everything, and they still ballsed up Jamie's progression, so the only reason Scotland had such successful players is because of a very stubborn parent, who knew what she was doing, taking her children somewhere else to train. The only way Ireland will get successful players is if an equally stubborn parent, who actually knows what they are doing, takes their child(ren) somewhere else to train.

you said that the LTA were as bad as TI tho.

what you say about the only way in Ireland that it would happen to produce a player I agree with - that's what I said in the 2nd post on this thread.

[Deleted User] · 28-01-2019 10:27pm

Remind me wrote: »

Why wealthy?

to pay for a tennis academy education abroad from maybe 10/11 years old. who is going to hand you that sort of money for potential in a child that young?

The Golden Miller · 28-01-2019 10:29pm

Johnmb wrote: »

This is the first time I've ever heard the term "queen's" sports applied to tennis. It has had an elitist reputation though due to the cost of joining clubs, and the former waiting lists, joining fees, etc. They are long gone now though, no joining fees or waiting lists for about 95% of clubs, just show up and join.

TI don't know how to develop young players, or aren't interested because to do it right would require that they move away from the jobs for the boys mentality that runs rampant there...

I've regularly heard that from people who scoff at the idea of even watching tennis. Admittedly, as time went on, that's not the case anymore. But it does still have that remnant stigma attached to it, where it's not even considered within circles of young people playing sport. Traditional "elitism" in Ireland would very much be wrapped up in associations with Britain, calling something a "queen's sport" would be a flippant passing comment

Remind me · 28-01-2019 10:37pm

glasso wrote: »

to pay for a tennis academy education abroad from maybe 10/11 years old. who is going to hand you that sort of money for potential in a child that young?

Is there no underage set up in Ireland?

I’m just trying to compare to another individual sport like golf where we would have regular success.

[Deleted User] · 28-01-2019 10:46pm

Remind me wrote: »

Is there no underage set up in Ireland?

I’m just trying to compare to another individual sport like golf where we would have regular success.

It needs to be at the required level of coaching, other students/ practice opponents and facilities.

Nowhere near the required level exists in Ireland.

Good weather is also an advantage.

Gonad · 28-01-2019 10:48pm

I’d say we have about as much chance of producing a 2 weight ufc world champ

Oh wait ...

Remind me · 28-01-2019 10:50pm

glasso wrote: »

It needs to be at the required level of coaching, other students/ practice opponents and facilities.

Nowhere near the required level exists in Ireland.

Good weather is also an advantage.

Good weather an advantage but certainly not a necessity with indoor courts?

Just sounds like numbers don’t exist to make the game competitive here?

AllForIt · 28-01-2019 11:06pm

Tennis is looked down on in this country because of the overwhelming interest in team sports. If it's not a team sport then it's just some womens thing, not a real mans sport. Unless it's boxing where most ppl can understand a good punch, without too much effort.

Also, tennis is a highly skilled sport unlike football for example. Probably the most highly skilled imo. Most armchairs viewers of tennis haven't a clue the nuances of the sport as they can't be gleaned by simply watching it on TV. The complexities of the serve go over the head of most armchair viewers unless you study it, if your interested.

Tennis isn't exactly a working class sport and working class sports dominate in this country.

SophieLockhart · 28-01-2019 11:06pm

It's a good question and one that's been asked for years without a satisfactory answer.

Some say we don't have enough numbers playing, but the name recognition of the major stars is huge here, and anyone who could make it would be straight onto the A list, perhaps even more so then the golfers whom we're fairly accustomed to reaching the top.

A few names have been bandied about lately but they don't seem to be progressing much.

shutup · 28-01-2019 11:25pm

Ever is a long time but I can’t see it happening anytime soon.
The culture is just not in this country.
- The pull of team sports takes away the talent.
No history/tradition
No funding.
No infrastructure and not enough support to build it.
Crap weather.
Small numbers playing.
Massive cost involved.
Only rich kids playing whose parents value education above all else.
Drinking/socializing/quitting/ lack of confidence culture

It’s all against us but hopefully a gift from god will give us something to cheer about.

That kid would have to get out of ireland ASAP to avoid the above mentioned

shutup · 28-01-2019 11:30pm

By the way. Great to see some real Tennis talk on boards. We also need interest in local and low level Tennis to get more people involved which in turn gives more chance to unearth a world class Irish player.

Chivito550 · 28-01-2019 11:42pm

shutup wrote: »

Ever is a long time but I can’t see it happening anytime soon.
The culture is just not in this country.
- The pull of team sports takes away the talent.
No history/tradition
No funding.
No infrastructure and not enough support to build it.
Crap weather.
Small numbers playing.
Massive cost involved.
Only rich kids playing whose parents value education above all else.
Drinking/socializing/quitting/ lack of confidence culture

It’s all against us but hopefully a gift from god will give us something to cheer about.

That kid would have to get out of ireland ASAP to avoid the above mentioned

Interesting post.

No doubt team sports dominate, but many of the above factors also apply to athletics. It is very much a minority sport here, yet we do produce world class athletes. Not often, but we do produce them occasionally. In the past athletes had to go down the US Collegiate route to make it to the top, but not anymore. Right now we have a world class athlete in Thomas Barr, who trains in Limerick. Ciara Mageean is reasonably close to world class and has only recently moved to the UK after many years training in Ireland. There is a lot of exciting talent (almost exclusively on the women's side) coming through in sprints, middle distance and jumps (with a crazy amount of European U18 and World U20 medals claimed last year).

The sport gets decent funding, but it is hardly great. Nobody is making a good living off athletics in this country, that's for sure. Most are on no government funding at all. Coaches are still exclusively volunteers. There aren't enough tracks (only 3 outdoor 400m tracks in Dublin, and 5 if you include Leixlip and Greystones).

What makes athletics different from tennis? They both face very similar battles for column inches, funding, TV time etc in a nation obsessed with GAA, Soccer and Rugby. Is it a case that there are simply bigger numbers doing athletics than tennis, so a few squeeze through the net? Is it better coaching? Perhaps less of a barrier to entry re costs?

[Deleted User] · 28-01-2019 11:48pm

you can run around a track anywhere and measure your time

tennis development is far more complex and depends a lot on getting a sufficient level of competition and learning from your matches.

This needs to start at an early age (11 max these days I would say)

That's why those tennis academies are successful - they provide an intensive training environment with lots of practice matches.

I know that the guy Simon Carr went off to play on the futures circuit at maybe age 16 - I'm not sure where he is based out of.

Doesn't seem to have made a lot of progress over the last couple of years.

https://www.itftennis.com/procircuit/players/player/profile.aspx?playerid=100224982

Chivito550 · 28-01-2019 11:53pm

glasso wrote: »

you can run around a track anywhere and measure your time

tennis development is far more complex and depends a lot on getting a sufficient level of competition and learning from your matches.

This needs to start at an early age (11 max these days I would say)

That's why those tennis academies are successful - they provide an intensive training environment with lots of practice matches.

I know that the guy Simon Carr went off to play on the futures circuit at maybe age 16 - I'm not sure where he is based out of.

Doesn't seem to have made a lot of progress over the last couple of years.

https://www.itftennis.com/procircuit/players/player/profile.aspx?playerid=100224982

I take your point about tennis, but you are simplifying athletics a lot. There's a lot more to the sport than running around a track and recording your time. Lots of little details that go into something that the average punter on the street thinks is "just running and jumping".

[Deleted User] · 28-01-2019 11:58pm

Chivito550 wrote: »

I take your point about tennis, but you are simplifying athletics a lot. There's a lot more to the sport than running around a track and recording your time. Lots of little details that go into something that the average punter on the street thinks is "just running and jumping".

yes I appreciate that.

but required competition level is the key factor in tennis and we certainly don't have that in Ireland. you need to be playing several matches a week.

NIMAN · 28-01-2019 11:59pm

Irish tennis players would need to start juicing big time if they want to compete at any level.

Fr Tod Umptious · 29-01-2019 12:16am

Chivito550 wrote: »

I take your point about tennis, but you are simplifying athletics a lot. There's a lot more to the sport than running around a track and recording your time. Lots of little details that go into something that the average punter on the street thinks is "just running and jumping".

But any kid from any background can run in their local Community Games, and if they are any good they could very easily find themselves in a national competition.

And that's how they get their start.

That's not as easy with tennis

shutup · 29-01-2019 12:24am

Chivito, i take your point and we do well and I support our athletes but I suppose the difference is athletics covers loads of disiplines so when Thomas Barr is successful in just one you get to use athletics as an example.
It’s not like we compete at the medal table at the Olympics.
Tennis is a huge sport worldwide. Not broken into disciplines or wright classes. Hard to compete on a world level coming from Ireland.

Chivito550 · 29-01-2019 12:36am

shutup wrote: »

Chivito, i take your point and we do well and I support our athletes but I suppose the difference is athletics covers loads of disiplines so when Thomas Barr is successful in just one you get to use athletics as an example.
It’s not like we compete at the medal table at the Olympics.
Tennis is a huge sport worldwide. Not broken into disciplines or wright classes. Hard to compete on a world level coming from Ireland.

Fair point. Although to counteract that point somewhat, athletics, along with football, is the only truly global sport (there's no tennis in most of Africa, the Caribbean etc for example).

Also, while something like the shot putt is niche, long distance running is anything but. It is probably one of, if not the most accessible sport on a global level. The sheer numbers competing in it is huge. For somebody like Sonia O'Sullivan to get to the very top of that is nothing short of staggering.

Will Ireland ever have a top level player in tennis?

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