Fields of lush green grass and nothing else.

gozunda · 19-02-2019 5:29pm

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Again....

https://www.friendsoftheirishenvironment.org/eu/13-papers-today/biodiversity/4789-
I think (hope!) that you could debate this article with greater verbosity than “scarey dairy”.....the floor is yours!

Is that personal comment aimed at myself? Lol.

Gawddawggonnit - could you at least put up some commentary about the link please.

I dunno if we're supposed to react, summarise it or just get back to you if we read it. Discussion it aint.

This is third article dump without comment you've posted. Its your article - discuss away.

Anyway I'm still waiting for an answer to
https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057955076/5
I believe the question was

How many of any "average' farms would have "breeding corncrake, snipe, grasshopper warbler, sedge warbler, skylarks, meadow pipit, marsh orchid, early purple orchid, ragged robin"
& etc

Gawddawggonnit · 19-02-2019 5:42pm

gozunda wrote: »

Is that personal comment aimed at myself? Lol.

Gawddawggonnit - could you at least put up some commentary about the link please.

I dunno if we're supposed to react, summarise it or just get back to you if we read it. Discussion it aint.

This is third article dump without comment you've posted. Its your article - work away.

The article is self explanatory...and pretty much in line with what Car99 originally started this thread.

The floor is all yours...

gozunda · 19-02-2019 5:56pm

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

The article is self explanatory...and pretty much in line with what Car99 originally started this thread. The floor is all yours...

So that's an affirmative on the personal bit lol ?

Well the article doesn't answer the question I posted. No idea why you're directed it at my comment tbh.

:How many of any "average' farms would have "breeding corncrake, snipe, grasshopper warbler, sedge warbler, skylarks, meadow pipit, marsh orchid, early purple orchid, ragged robin" ?

as detailed above

If you want to start another discussion - then fine. But afaik the normal thing then is to make a statement etc and back it up with a reference then discuss AND not just dump random references and see if you get a hit ...

Btw I am interested in knowing how common those listed species are across all types of farm - hence the question...

Gawddawggonnit · 19-02-2019 6:22pm

gozunda wrote: »

So that's an affirmative on the personal bit lol ?

Well the article doesn't answer the question I posted. No idea why you're directed it at my comment tbh.

as detailed above

If you want to start another discussion - then fine. But afaik the normal thing then is to make a statement etc and back it up with a reference then discuss AND not just dump random references and see if you get a hit ...

Btw I am interested in knowing how common those listed species are across all types of farm - hence the question...

Stop pursuing a straw man argument/fallacy....

https://www.friendsoftheirishenvironment.org/eu/13-papers-today/biodiversity/4789-

Read the article, then comment or continue as you are.

The perceived personal comment was YOURS -> “scarey dairy”!! In fact that was your ONLY comment on Dr. Purvis findings. I’m sure that the posters here, myself included, would like to hear what you’ve to say...

I’d suggest to try Birdwatch Ireland for any answers you need for bird numbers?

I’ve plenty other articles from experts in the field (no pun intended) about Irish biodiversity, but why don’t you critique Dr. Purvis to start...?

Panch18 · 19-02-2019 6:59pm

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Again....

https://www.friendsoftheirishenvironment.org/eu/13-papers-today/biodiversity/4789-

I think (hope!) that you could debate this article with greater verbosity than “scarey dairy”.....the floor is yours!

Dawg you do know that France has seen a 29% increase in pesticide usage since 2009 and that the level of high nitrate concentrations in rivers is worse in France than in Ireland. Do you think these factors improve biodiversity in France or make it worse? What are your general thoughts on how the situation is disimproving in France despite some efforts made to improve the situation in France?

gozunda · 19-02-2019 7:11pm

Gawddawggonnit wrote: »

Stop pursuing a straw man argument/fallacy....
https://www.friendsoftheirishenvironment.org/eu/13-papers-today/biodiversity/4789-
Read the article, then comment or continue as you are. The perceived personal comment was yours -> “scarey dairy”!! In fact that was your only comment on Dr. Purvis findings. I’m sure that the posters here, myself included, would like to hear what you’ve to say..I’d suggest to try Birdwatch Ireland for any answers you need for bird numbers?I’ve plenty other articles from experts in the field (no pun intended) about Irish biodiversity, but why don’t you critique Dr. Purvis to start...?

I'll continue exactly the way I am thanks :pac:

Btw you haven't debated the article at all. You haven't even made out what you're discussing ffs! But just interested why you dont want to engage with my comment and try to answer that? What's the issue? Other than spoiling for an argument perhaps?

Just to go back and recap - the link you posted in reply has nothing to do with my comment and completely and utterly irrelevant btw to my question as I have pointed out.

Btw the comment - 'scary dairy' (ie the link) was in response to wtf had it got to do with the question asked. And the answer to that is it doesn't !

Just to recap I believe that question was

How many of any "average' farms would have "breeding corncrake, snipe, grasshopper warbler, sedge warbler, skylarks, meadow pipit, marsh orchid, early purple orchid, ragged robin" ?

Btw I really couldn't give a damn about your assumptions of other's wishes or what you want one way or the other. thanks all the same. That's it....

Capercaillie · 19-02-2019 7:26pm

gozunda wrote: »

So that's an affirmative on the personal bit lol ?

Well the article doesn't answer the question I posted. No idea why you're directed it at my comment tbh.

as detailed above

If you want to start another discussion - then fine. But afaik the normal thing then is to make a statement etc and back it up with a reference then discuss AND not just dump random references and see if you get a hit ...

Btw I am interested in knowing how common those listed species are across all types of farm - hence the question...

I have all those species breeding/growing on farm.

gozunda · 19-02-2019 7:29pm

Capercaillie wrote: »

I have all those species breeding/growing on farm.

That's good. Any idea how many of "average' farms in Ireland would have "all those species breeding/growing"?

Capercaillie · 19-02-2019 7:55pm

gozunda wrote: »

That's good. Any idea how many of "average' farms in Ireland would have "all those species breeding/growing"?

With the exception of corncrake it would be possible to have most of rest of species on farm with sympathetic management. However it would be rare to have most/any of them on conventional dairy farm now.

Dinzee Conlee · 19-02-2019 8:42pm

Did you ever walk into the room, and the missus and the kids are standing there... kids looking all cross and indignant... the missus looking even crosser, whilst shouting “I DONT CARE WHICH ONE OF YE STARTED IT...”

That’s what I keep thinking as I read this thread...

Lano Lynn · 19-02-2019 9:46pm

a local man was extoling the wisdom of the department he was complementing them for grant aiding him to remove hedges in the '70s and paid him REPS to plant hedges in the '90s.they paid him headage and ewe premium on the hill and extensification on the cattle on the lowland and now they are paying him on the basis of what he had 20yrs ago even though he is only keeping a fraction of what he had then .

his final deductions were

A. I if you pay farmers to do something that's what they will do

B. the department don't have much wisdom:D

gozunda · 19-02-2019 9:47pm

Capercaillie wrote: »

With the exception of corncrake it would be possible to have most of rest of species on farm with sympathetic management. However it would be rare to have most/any of them on conventional dairy farm now.

corncrake, snipe, grasshopper warbler, sedge warbler, skylarks, meadow pipit, marsh orchid, early purple orchid, ragged robin"

A significant number of those species are wetland or bog species such as Ragged Robin, Sedge Warbler, Marsh Orchid and the Corncrake. Not all farms - dairy or otherwise by any means have natural wetland conditions suitable to those species.

According to birdwatchers Ireland Meadow Pipits are of the commonest bird species in Ireland, favouring rough pastures and uplands.

Could habitats for these species be newly created? Sure they could. However I reckon that hundred of thousands of acres of cut over bog under government ownership is a better option for creating new wilded areas. This land is not only available but would make for largescale rewilding in areas that are not under agricultural production and that still have the potential to be returned to wetland conditions without effecting farm incomes or production.

wrangler · 20-02-2019 12:50am

Lano Lynn wrote: »

a local man was extoling the wisdom of the department he was complementing them for grant aiding him to remove hedges in the '70s and paid him REPS to plant hedges in the '90s.they paid him headage and ewe premium on the hill and extensification on the cattle on the lowland and now they are paying him on the basis of what he had 20yrs ago even though he is only keeping a fraction of what he had then .

his final deductions were

A. I if you pay farmers to do something that's what they will do

B. the department don't have much wisdom:D

or
You play the cards you're dealt

Capercaillie · 21-02-2019 10:32am

gozunda wrote: »

A significant number of those species are wetland or bog species such as Ragged Robin, Sedge Warbler, Marsh Orchid and the Corncrake. Not all farms - dairy or otherwise by any means have natural wetland conditions suitable to those species.

That's because of drainage of most wetlands (however small). Farmers are basically incentivised to do because of eligibility requirements for BFP. Corncrake are not a wetland bird btw.

According to birdwatchers Ireland Meadow Pipits are of the commonest bird species in Ireland, favouring rough pastures and uplands.

Your google search is out of date, huge decline in meadow pipit now and they are red-listed. They nest in meadows and cannot cope with intensive grazing or any early cut silage.

Could habitats for these species be newly created? Sure they could. However I reckon that hundred of thousands of acres of cut over bog under government ownership is a better option for creating new wilded areas. This land is not only available but would make for largescale rewilding in areas that are not under agricultural production and that still have the potential to be returned to wetland conditions without effecting farm incomes or production.[/

Pie in the sky suggestion. Do you think Bord na Móna are just going to give 100,000 acres for rewilding??

ganmo · 21-02-2019 12:38pm

Capercaillie wrote: »

Pie in the sky suggestion. Do you think Bord na Móna are just going to give 100,000 acres for rewilding??

https://www.bordnamona.ie/company/news/articles/bord-na-mona-deploys-new-excavators-for-bog-rehabilitation-work/

theres 500 acres right there

Capercaillie · 21-02-2019 9:03pm

ganmo wrote: »

https://www.bordnamona.ie/company/news/articles/bord-na-mona-deploys-new-excavators-for-bog-rehabilitation-work/

theres 500 acres right there

Tokenism at best. Need more than 500 acres unfortunately. Lough Boora is another good project, but needs large scale approach.

ganmo · 21-02-2019 9:29pm

Capercaillie wrote: »

Tokenism at best. Need more than 500 acres unfortunately. Lough Boora is another good project, but needs large scale approach.

haha you pulled 100k acres from ur ass and yet when i show you 0.5% of your figure you're not happy quelle surprise.

I'm fairly certain BNM are managing other bogs in a similar manner but cba digging through google to find proof

gozunda · 21-02-2019 10:11pm

Capercaillie wrote: »

That's because of drainage of most wetlands (however small). Farmers are basically incentivised to do because of eligibility requirements for BFP.

You do know that the largest drainage of wetlands in this country occurred in the late 19th and early 20th century? A time when there was no grants or incentives yeah?

Your google search is out of date, huge decline in meadow pipit now and they are red-listed. They nest in meadows and cannot cope with intensive grazing or any early cut silage.

Youd better tell that to Birdwatch Ireland - that's on the current website.

Pie in the sky suggestion. Do you think Bord na Móna are just going to give 100,000 acres for rewilding??

And do you think that government controlled land going unused wouldn't best be rewilded? That would be the most incredible use for much land that is otherwise going to waste and yet you would expect private Individuals to convert farmland into underproductive land? Really?

Corncrake are not a wetland bird btw.

Not to be pedantic one of the corncrakes noted breeding grounds was central Ireland, North of Lough Derg the River Shannon. These areas are noted as having very shallow gradient and in parts regularly floods its banks. The resulting wet grassland area, is known as the Shannon Callows. So yes indeed the corncrake are known to inhabit wetland areas

wrangler · 21-02-2019 10:30pm

Capercaillie wrote: »

Pie in the sky suggestion. Do you think Bord na Móna are just going to give 100,000 acres for rewilding??

A lot of farmers around here are worried about Bord Na Mona reflooding the bogs.
and turning off the pumps, a lot of farmers have their drainage plans based on water going into bord na mona bogs, surrounding land is very level and floods very quick, so quick that neighbours phone each other when they see it happen

Birdnuts · 21-02-2019 10:31pm

gozunda wrote: »

You do know that the largest drainage of wetlands in this country occurred in the late 19th and early 20th century? A time when there was no grants or incentives yeah?

The British gave alot of money to landlords to drain vast areas areas from the famine onwards. Probably sealed the faith of species like the Bittern and the Marsh Harrier. As for BNM and their bogs - love to see them put back and that was the original plan when the company started out in the 1940's. Unfortunatly the current top management are now only interested in quick money via subsidies for wind farms(which will further drive up everyone else's energy costs) which they then plan to flip to Vulture funds. This means that they will continue to pump vast amounts of water from bogs to keep them dry and sterilized - its will also mean vast quantities of peat silt will continue to pour into the Shannon, which is one of the major causes of flooding and poor water quality in that system:(

gozunda · 21-02-2019 10:31pm

ganmo wrote: »

https://www.bordnamona.ie/company/news/articles/bord-na-mona-deploys-new-excavators-for-bog-rehabilitation-work/

theres 500 acres right there

Thanks for the link. I heard about the project alright - very interesting to read about it.

Capercaillie wrote: »

Tokenism at best. Need more than 500 acres unfortunately. Lough Boora is another good project, but needs large scale approach.

And yet when I brought up the idea of large scale rewilding of these areas - you called it "pie in the sky" .

:rolleyes:

From the link:

The company has announced that it has progressed the rehabilitation of over 700 hectares of cutaway bog in the past year. This adds to the 15,000 ha of bog already rehabilitated by the company. The company has outlined a target of at least 10,000 hectares to be rehabilitated in the coming decade.

Birdnuts · 21-02-2019 10:33pm

wrangler wrote: »

A lot of farmers around here are worried about Bord Na Mona reflooding the bogs.
and turning off the pumps, a lot of farmers have their drainage plans based on water going into bord na mona bogs, surrounding land is very level and floods very quick, so quick that neighbours phone each other when they see it happen

Actually a healthy growing bog soaks up water from surrounding lands. Alot of the flooding issues in the Shannon basin are due to the loss of that function and vast quantities of peat silt entering the river from harvested bare bogs

BarryD2 · 21-02-2019 10:52pm

Re OP, not entirely sure that the Golden Vale and Glen of Aherlow areas etc. are representative of the rest of Ireland. There sure are numerous well organised enterprises down there, you can see the lands laid out to the last detail. Large sheds for overwintering stock, tracks radiating out to the various 'fields'. Many ditches have been taken out and the grassland striped / divided into more or less equal paddocks to allow for rotation of stock, resting and cutting silage etc. All very methodical and mathematically managed. It's the industrial approach to dairy farming and little to do with conserving natural habitats etc

But when you move away/ up into less productive land, disadvantaged land then the picture is more normal, smaller fields, bigger ditches, smaller building clusters etc. We live in such an area and see a fair amount of wildlife in terms of small mammals and deer etc. Also plenty of bird life. What is really noticeable though in the 25 years we've been here is the huge drop in things like bees, butterflies and moths etc. The house would have been 'full' of them if you left the windows open of a summers eve and the drone of the bees on a sunny day was unmissable. It can't be sprays as not a lot would be used around here, more grazing for sheep and cattle.

Capercaillie · 21-02-2019 11:02pm

ganmo wrote: »

haha you pulled 100k acres from ur ass and yet when i show you 0.5% of your figure you're not happy quelle surprise.

I'm fairly certain BNM are managing other bogs in a similar manner but cba digging through google to find proof

Gozunda came up with the "hundreds of thousands of acres", so you can thank him.

BnM have strip mined most of raised bogs of midlands, I don't think the tiny amount of bog restoration compensates for the total destruction...

Capercaillie · 21-02-2019 11:08pm

gozunda wrote: »

You do know that the largest drainage of wetlands in this country occurred in the late 19th and early 20th century? A time when there was no grants or incentives yeah?

Youd better tell that to Birdwatch Ireland - that's on the current website.

And do you think that government controlled land going unused wouldn't best be rewilded? That would be the most incredible use for much land that is otherwise going to waste and yet you would expect private Individuals to convert farmland into underproductive land? Really?

Not to be pedantic one of the corncrakes noted breeding grounds was central Ireland, North of Lough Derg the River Shannon. These areas are noted as having very shallow gradient and in parts regularly floods its banks. The resulting wet grassland area, is known as the Shannon Callows. So yes indeed the corncrake are known to inhabit wetland areas

Given I had 6 calling male corncrake last year, I know a bit more about corncrake than yourself. Shannon Callows were a stronghold for corncrake, only because the seasonally flooded meadows prevented early cut silage.... Areas away from Callows area mowed at normal times for silage thus eradicating corncrake.

gozunda · 21-02-2019 11:20pm

Capercaillie wrote: »

Given I had 6 calling male corncrake last year, I know a bit more about corncrake than yourself. Shannon Callows were a stronghold for corncrake, only because the seasonally flooded meadows prevented early cut silage.... Areas away from Callows area mowed at normal times for silage thus eradicating corncrake.

And are you sure about that?

and the fact that Callows are a type of wet grassland doesn't mark that out as being pedantic no?

gozunda · 21-02-2019 11:34pm

Capercaillie wrote: »

Gozunda came up with the "hundreds of thousands of acres", so you can thank him. BnM have strip mined most of raised bogs of midlands, I don't think the tiny amount of bog restoration compensates for the total destruction...

So you skid along and try and blame someone else :mad:

Why does that remind me of a kid screaming at their teacher saying 'Miss - whhhhaaaa he made me do it!

I was not wrong btw. My figures unlike yours are based on the fact that Bord Na Mona declare that they own approximately 80,000 hectares equivalent to some 197,684 acres of land.

See: https://www.bordnamona.ie/case_study/challenges-case-study-02/

SlowBlowin · 22-02-2019 12:04am

The 80,000 hectares is all the land they own, solar farms, wind farms, biomass, AND peat.

In total the official figures are:

Bord na Móna are the dominant peat producers in Ireland harvesting 4 million tonnes per annum. Other privately owned companies set-up in the 20th century are industrially extracting peat from designated and non-designated peatland sites. Based on estimates of volumes harvested by private peat producers it may be inferred that a probable total of 100,00ha is being utilised for peat harvesting (Reilly and Riordan, 2007).

gozunda · 22-02-2019 2:34am

SlowBlowin wrote: »

The 80,000 hectares is all the land they own, solar farms, wind farms, biomass, AND peat.
In total the official figures are:
Bord na Móna are the dominant peat producers in Ireland harvesting 4 million tonnes per annum.

Other privately owned companies set-up in the 20th century are industrially extracting peat from designated and non-designated peatland sites. Based on estimates of volumes harvested by private peat producers it may be inferred that a probable total of 100,00ha is being utilised for peat harvesting (Reilly and Riordan, 2007).

Well duh talking about stating the evident! Where was it said that BnM dont have wind generators, roads, buildings on the land they own etc? I also know they are the main peat producer in the county btw!

According to the piece you quoted there is at least an active 100,000 ha utilised for peat harvesting. However that piece does not clarify if that land being used by private peat producers is owned privately or is the figure inclusive of all BnM land as well? With BnM having a stated ownership of 80,000 ha I would guess it is the latter.

A lot of land owned by BnM has been harvested and much is sitting idle and if the EU have their way a lot more will go the same way.

It remains that the land under public ownership amounts to nearly 200,000 acres. The current rewilding program under way is a start anyway.

SlowBlowin · 22-02-2019 2:44am

gozunda wrote: »

Well duh talking about stating the evident! Where was it said that BnM dont have wind generators, roads, buildings on the land they own etc? I also know they are the main peat producer in the county btw!

Sorry I thought you were talking about land used for peat production.

Fields of lush green grass and nothing else.

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