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Slane by-pass and the Archaeology beneth
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Wow I cannot believe someone is making a case against a dangerous road that has caused deaths and accidents and has no really valid reason for opposing it. I also cant believe that your making a conscious effort to change their font size when they post.0
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I am an ex resident of Slane and perhaps I've missed a quote or a thread somewere but what are arguments against building a by pass ?
It brilliant there haven't been any deaths on the road in 9 years and we should all be thankfull of that fact but the word minor does not cover the accidents that have been on the bridge over the years since the new traffic calming measures. And if you belive the minor is the right word to describe it then perhaps you should speak to the people involved in them.
Even that argument is getting of the point because really what has it got to fo with the by pass ? It seems that the discussion has gotten very off course and instead is focused on a he said she said campaign. Maybe get back to the real issue - the REAL arguments for and against the by pass in just bullet points no smoke screens or anything. I will say that I am leaning towards the by pass mostly because I haven't seen a decent argument against. Perhaps I'm wrong educate me.0 -
TGS, I just wanted to thank you for making our case for us.
I wouldn't personally have compiled such an exhaustive list of quotes in relation to Slane Bridge as I wouldn't have wanted to be accused of "hammering on" about the deaths, but as you have done so, I'll feel free to use it elsewhere.
Quote (sorry Grimes, I'm copying from his post and I don't know how to change the font back to normal, please feel free to do so):
One famous accident, the last one last March was when the brakes filed on a lorry. Then it was blamed on the lack of a bypass, not the fact that the brakes failed on the lorry.
Eh .... ? The whole point of the bypass is to get the lorries off the road. The reason we need the lorries off the road is because of the steep hill from Collon, the 90 degree turn onto the bridge and the fact that lorries KEEP LOSING THEIR BRAKING POWER AND HITTING PEOPLE! What bit of that are you NOT getting?!
Deep breaths, step back from the keyboard ...0 -
Seeing as I used to live 100m from the bridge, i think i can safely say that I saw at least one accident per week on the bridge. thankfully most of these were minor. However, there is a row of white crosses on the wall before the bridge where the Boyne View houses sit. They act as a constant reminder of the danger of Slane Bridge.
I welcome a by-pass, but i would hope to see a proper investigation of options taken. but the measures taken in 2002 have not stopped accidents.0 -
I hope that those who did die at Slane, before 2002, rest in peace and that their graves will not be bulldozed as happened to the grave sites at Tara.
I also hope that their children or grandchildren do not die on trollies, from neglect or from the results of cutbacks, as now happens due to the bills and attempts to recover from the political hubris caused by the politicians who now plan the proposed By Pass.
I hope that those close to those who will die due to cutbacks, hospital closures or collapsed social systems will ask; if there was money to build roads why then were we and our loved ones denied it? One could also ask this on may fronts now that our economy, ecology and yes even the roads we have lie in ruins.
God rest those who did die before 2002 and may their names not be misused.0 -
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They're not actually buried at the bridge, so all is well there.thegreenspirit wrote: »I hope that those who did die at Slane, before 2002, rest in peace and that their graves will not be bulldozed as happened to the grave sites at Tara.0 -
This is a bit of a joke. The country is not giving its entire GDP and health budget over to building one road however if protesters hold it up like they did at Tara a lot of money that could be spent on "saving our loved ones" will be wasted on security and lost work days.
TGS you are missing the point entirely and are getting hammered both here and on the Save Newgrange page. You seem to have very little grasp of the archaeology and importance of the site save the usual propaganda that comes up when these things are mooted. Please note your post below on the Save Newgrange discussion form for your paranoid and misleading interpretation of events which is dangerous and will do more damage to the campaign to Save Newgrange from a bridge in Slane closer to Knowth than anything else.
John Farrelly wrote at 07:51 on 06 February 2010
Hie all,
there is another thread running on Boards.ie and because I have challanged the pro road lobby, often I admit in an unplesant manner, they have threathened to close the whole thread down. Talk about crummy babies?
I was unpleasant because they are so full of themselves that they imagine no one else knows anything so they insult us at will,
Its not just here you know!
Link
It is very difficult to have an open and mature debate with someone who has such a warped view of the facts and manipulates events to fit a personal agenda.A few questions questions John, are you from Slane, have visited the site, are you Irish or have ever visited Ireland?
Call me paranoid and suspicious but are you only posting that size font even thought I have asked you not to so when I make font changes to keep this thread tidy it will say "edited by grimes" and you can claim I removed some of your content?0 -
When they say that the route goes within 500m of the sites of Newgrange and the others, does that mean within 500m of the site itself or is there a directly protected area around it?
I cant really remember from all those trips in secondary school, but isnt there constantly some work going on in some other areas where burial mounds have been found around there? Will this act as a catalist for that work to be increased?0 -
TGS - Are you really foolish enough to think that the money will be spent in any other department than roads once it has been allocated there! get with it! From what I have read you have yet to come up with a decent argument about the by pass instead ranting on and on and on and on about bog all. How about sitting down and just listing out the reasons you feel the by pass shouldn't be built. Because so far all I can see from you are 2:
- the money could go towards something more worth while ie healthcare and Ireland social issues
- the main reason to prevent more accidents in Slane is not vaild as there have according to you not been many and NO deaths since the last traffic calming measures so there is no need.
Have I missed any if so please remind me but not in an ranting essay please!0 -
When they say that the route goes within 500m of the sites of Newgrange and the others, does that mean within 500m of the site itself or is there a directly protected area around it?
The bridge will be located 500m outside the extensive UNESCO Brú na Bóinne buffer zone . It will not affect visually, intrusively or audibly on the Newgrange site. The argument against the road is that it will affect the view from Slane down the river to the bend in the Boyne.I cant really remember from all those trips in secondary school, but isnt there constantly some work going on in some other areas where burial mounds have been found around there? Will this act as a catalist for that work to be increased?
There is archaeological excavation going on all over the country, it is necessary before infrastructural development and is usually avoided or dealt with in the planning phase. This will not increase further excavation as all sites are protected by law unless necessary. As far as I know there are no excavations of a research nature being carried out at Newgrange at the moment however Newgrange was almost entirely excavated and rebuilt in the past.0 -
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"The argument against the road is that it will affect the view from Slane down the river to the bend in the Boyne"
Is that really the only true argument against the by pass ?
Because it might not be pretty to look at. I haven't stopped laughing yet !!!!! Thats brilliant well with that in mind I say bring on the bulldozers and get digging.0 -
pinkhappyturtle wrote: »"The argument against the road is that it will affect the view from Slane down the river to the bend in the Boyne"
Is that really the only true argument against the by pass ?
Because it might not be pretty to look at. I haven't stopped laughing yet !!!!! Thats brilliant well with that in mind I say bring on the bulldozers and get digging.
Well also it will disturb the bones of some God and give Fianna Fail powers to kill en masse children. Some sort of other stupid excuse. But from visiting the site what I can see is the only landscape that will be affected is the Slane landscape and the people who get the call on that are the people who live there.
There will also be sites excavated but nothing you would even have realised was there. Subsurface features ect0 -
thegreenspirit wrote: »I hope that those who did die at Slane, before 2002, rest in peace and that their graves will not be bulldozed as happened to the grave sites at Tara.
What graves at Tara, where in God's name are you getting that information?0 -
About fifteen years ago Bertie Ahern formed a cabal around him to plan his move on power. The plan on transport was simple; ignore public transport, veto the building of bus depots and the reopening of railway lines and instead concentrate on motorways, bypasses and bridges. The M3 is the best example of this.
Foreign conglomerates would build the roads and then receive payment over many decades. Tolls would provide these payments and in a powerhouse economy few would complain, it would be like throwing copper to beggars.
That plan has now ended in a pothole called Nama.
Collapsing employment and minimum wages have led to the avoidance of tolls as ever more drivers swerve back to the old roads that they know are free.
When Slane originally decided to ban HGVs they were following this plan. They knew it would not work, that Europe would not allow them force drivers to pay tolls and that the politicians who pleaded for us to accept The Lisbon EU would not challange this, they hoped instead that a plentiful supply of money would make it an easy option. Then the economy failed and the plan went astray. No one would admit to this lie and so the ban was quietly replaced by plans for a By Pass.
At Slane it was justified by the Myth of the Invented Dead, a myth which says 3 minor accidents in nine years is carnage. White crosses, obese politicians and corrupt journalists weighed in behind it, to hide the truth and the truth about tolls went missing.
If Slane was alone in this then it could be avoided too. You can easily avoid one piece of dog ****e on the path to work, but if the path is covered in it what then?
Some miles away, in an equally historic and culture filled landscape Noel Dempsey and the Ahern Cabal decided to build a deep water port at Bremore. It nears a start. 3000 to 5000 vehicles are to use this port each day, they have planned that these vehicles will go out onto the M1, by then tolled to the hilt in a desperate attempt to keep it and other roads maintained and working. They know that the drivers will by then all be subsiding on even more reduced minimum wages and they ignore the fact that Bremore is surrounded by a maze of small towns and narrow roads like Slane too.
Will the drivers pay the tolls and use the M1 or will they avoid it too, save money and go barrelling down the small side roads, into chocked towns; blocked to the gills but still toll free? Noel Dempsey; the architect of this madness will have no power to force them onto the motorways there either; that’s what he now says about Slane. So what will he do?
Well he find more towns that are prepared to invent more dead to hide his failure, will he build more bypasses, bridges and slip roads on the back of these lies as at Slane or will he legislate and force the vehicles onto the tolled motorways? What will he do?
If he cannot force people to use a tolled motorway and avoid Slane today how can he do it at Bremore tomorrow? If he can do it tomorrow at Bremore why then does he not do it at Slane today. This would avoid the costs of the Slane Bypass, it would save our heritage at Bru Na Boinne and the special area of conservation in the Slane valley too? Or has he perhaps a third option?
Will he soon head down the motorway with a lorry full of brown bags to where the last of Ahern’s cabal are waiting behind some hedge for the final big pay day and so leave it to blow dried Enda to fix up.
Does this matter to you?
You would have paid for it anyway had it worked; with tolls, tax and environment destruction.
You now pay when it fails by closing schools, jobs, healthcare, dole, and of course the environmental, heritage and cultural destruction that happened anyway.
Does this sort of politics matter to you? If so why do you stay so quiet?
The accident figures; no deaths and three minor accidents since 2002 on the Slane Bridge are taken from the Environmental Impact Statement, drawn up by Meath CoCo and backed by Transport 21 and The NRA.0 -
TGS your post has nothing to do with archaeology. You didnt answer any questions that were posed to you about anything relevant to this thread.
That entire post has just gone to prove that you are using archaeology as a weapon in an anti Fianna Fail agenda. Im no fan of the Fiannafailures but I certainly dont hijack an uneducated understanding of Irish culture and heritage as a weapon. You are, in my opinion much more destructive than Fianna Fail, the NRA or Archaeologists. You abuse Irish archaeology to get a dig in about a mismanaged country.
Keep your hands off our heritage, its not a weapon to be abused0 -
The hysteria in this country is unbelievable. For the nation that was once termed the 'Land of the Saints and the Scholars' we should be ashamed of ourselves. The protestors who have followed around Pied Piper Solafia from Carrickmines to Tara to Newgrange should start taking a look at the facts of this case. I agree there must be debates about development but the legislation is set up in such a way that this is allowed. For anyone to actually believe that someone is building a road through Newgrange is ridiculous.
There are people who are trained to understand archaeology, excavate archaeology and record archaeology. These people are the people who REALLY care about their heritage, and in the face of advancing development, endeavour to record archaeological sites in extreme conditions and for very low pay. We LIVE archaeology every day. The ignorance and militantism of Solafia's followers in ignoring archaeologists and banning them from open forums means that vulnerable and easily-led individuals are being dragged into a ridiculous one-sided propaganda attack which is based on lies and hysteria.
Archaeologists excavate IMPORTANT sites every day of the week to protect them from developments which the country needs. There is enough room in the world for both necessary construction works and archaeological knowledge. To actually CARE about archaeology is not to immortalise so-called 'important' sites, because they have been termed as such by propaganda tools and governments in the past (like the Celtic Revival), but to also seek to understand HOW people lived in the past and how they used this land of ours. This is done through meticulous archaeological excavation and recording. Many of the sites which people know about today have ALREADY been excavated and reconstructed so that we can visit the 'lovely' visitor centres with information cards; we then place our own modern ideas of importance on that site.
The protestors need to sit down and read the real facts.
They need to start respecting the people who deal with archaeology and heritage for a living. We know how to protect out heritage and it is NOT through ignorance, but through careful evaluation of the landscape prior to any construction works, and the discovery of new archaeological sites which are only revealed through construction work. The subsequent back-breaking physical work that is carried out ensures that archaeology is PROTECTED in this country.0 -
While this doesn't really affect the archaeology, it's fairly relevant: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2010/0826/1224277611157.htmlPLANS FOR a dual-carriageway to bypass the village of Slane, Co Meath, have been described as “idiotic” by Dr Edgar Morgenroth, associate professor at the Economic and Social Research Institute.
Obviously the area excavated for a two-lane road would be far smaller than for a dual carriageway.0 -
having driven to rosslare from donegal recently (to drive through france)
thank god they did, havent done this journey for a few years but from rooskey to gorey now is reasnably pleasant0 -
A geophysical survey of the bypass route has aready been carried out and 44 archaeological and cultural sites within half a kilometre of the road have been identified. Out of the 44 sites, 4 have archaeological potential. None ofthe 44 are within the Bru Na Boinne buffer zone.
Full details can be seen here
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?v=wall&ref=search&gid=286896560291#!/topic.php?uid=286896560291&topic=138040 -
actualfact
"The hysteria in this country is unbelievable. For the nation that was once termed the 'Land of the Saints and the Scholars' we should be ashamed of ourselves. The protestors who have followed around Pied Piper Solafia from Carrickmines to Tara to Newgrange should start taking a look at the facts of this case. I agree there must be debates about development but the legislation is set up in such a way that this is allowed. For anyone to actually believe that someone is building a road through Newgrange is ridiculous."
I would like to point out that the new planning/heritage laws have not been published, that the laws you refer to deligate all the actual powers to the minister involved (2004 ammendment),
and what ever about the facts involved in this case the fact you disparage the protesters involved in carrickmines in ridiculous, this was a clearly corrupt descision and has been recognised so by the CAB re Jackson way (who are hardly a bunch of hippies)0 -
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Detailed inventory of the "44 sites" for anyone who is interested (taken from the EIS).
It's very obvious there will be minimal disruption in only a few sites which will be offset by mitigation (some of which is as simple as using fencing during construction); and in most cases the sites will be unaffected.
Appendix 10.2.2
Inventory of Archaeological Sites and Sites of Archaeological Potential
The following list comprises the 45 sites within c. 500m of the Proposed N2 Slane Bypass
(See Table 10.1.1).
1. Mound – Johnstown (HC1)
No predicted impact.
2. Souterrain, Fennor (HC13)
No predicted impact.
3. Settlement deserted, Slane. (HC14)
No predicted impact.
4. Cashel, Slane (HC17)
No predicted impact.
5. Road, Fennor, Cullen (Old Dublin-Slane road, remnant section) (HC25)
Type of impact: Direct
Significance and quality of impact: Moderate, negative.
Impact after Mitigation: Positive residual impact. Site will be fully excavated and any archaeological features recorded prior to construction. If required site notified to archaeological Survey of Ireland (DOE) for inclusion in SMR.
6. Cashel House, Cashel (HC27)
No predicted impact.
7. Fish Weir, Slane (HC36)
No predicted impact.
8. Weir, Crewbane (HC37)
No predicted impact.
9. Site of buildings, Slane (HC41)
No predicted impact.
10. Site of buildings, Slane (HC42)
No predicted impact.
11. Site of buildings, Crewbane (HC43)
No predicted impact.
12. Possible aerial enclosure, Mooretown (HC45)
No predicted impact.
13. Possible circular enclosure (HC46)
No predicted impact.
14. Possible sub-rectangular enclosure (HC48)
No predicted impact.
15. Possible Feature – Slane (HC50)
No predicted impact.
16. Possible enclosure, Cashel (HC51)
No predicted impact.
17. Possible circular feature (HC52)
No predicted impact.
18. Possible circular feature (HC53)
No predicted impact.
19. Non-archaeological feature, Slane (gorse shrubs in circular form) (HC54)
No predicted impact.
20. Non-archaeological feature, Slane (gorse shrubs in circular form) (HC55)
No predicted impact.
21. Possible archaeological feature, Fennor (HC58)
No predicted impact.
22. Possible archaeological feature, Fennor (HC59)
No predicted impact.
23. Possible archaeological feature, Cullen (HC60)
No predicted impact.
24. Possible circular enclosure, Cullen (HC61)
No predicted impact.
25. Possible demesne landscape feature, Crewbane (HC67)
Perceived significance – local.
Type of impact – indirect.
Description: A small D-shaped enclosing feature is situated in the north- west of the field which would appear to be an 18th century demesne landscape feature, although it may an enclosure dating to an earlier period. It consists of a raised area, possibly a natural outcrop, enclosed by a drystone wall with mature deciduous (beech?) trees planted on the wall and interior. Evidence of a possible field boundary lies to the south west of the enclosure. A shallow linear depression runs from the field boundary in the west to the enclosure, in a south-west – north-east direction and is mirrored by a short section of earthen bank, a hawthorn hedgerow running in the same direction on the north-east side of the enclosure.
Impact after Mitigation: None
26. Possible demesne landscape feature, Cashel (HC68)
No predicted impact.
27. Race and weir buildings, Fennor (HC77)
No predicted impact.
28. Potential archaeological feature (HC79)
No predicted impact.
29. Weir, Fennor (HC80)
No predicted impact.
30. Flint Spread, Slane (HC82)
No predicted impact.
31. Early medieval rectangular enclosure (HC86)
Perceived significance: Regional
Type of Impact: Direct
Significance and quality of impact: Potentially significant, negative
Description: This investigation has confirmed the presence of a large sub-rectangular enclosure surrounded by a wide ditch up to 3.5m wide. It is unclear at present whether the enclosure continues under the townland boundary. A radiocarbon date was obtained from a cow atlas and can be calibrated at two sigma to 660-820 Cal AD (UB-7240). This indicates that the enclosure was in use in the early medieval period.
Impact after Mitigation: Positive impact, site will be fully excavated and any archaeological features recorded prior to construction.
32. Potential archaeological site, Slane (HC87)(
Type of impact: Direct
Significance and quality of impact: Potentially significant, negative
Description: Assessment of the southern field revealed outcropping bedrock which may have had an impact on the results of geophysical survey. The linear and curving features suggested by geophysical survey were not confirmed by the test trenches. These were however single trenches and the lack of features could be result of their location.
Impact after Mitigation: Positive impact, site will be fully excavated and any archaeological features recorded prior to construction.
33. River Boyne and Flood Plain (HC88)
Type of Impact: impact on river channel will be avoided as bridge piers will not be placed in the river channel. A single span of 78m in length will be constructed. The bridge piers will directly impact the flood plain
Significance and quality of impact: Potentially significant, negative
Description: The River Boyne and the flood plain of the River Boyne is a site of high archaeological potential. This Site is delimited, for the purposes of this assessment, in the east and west by the extent of the archaeological assessment corridor. The Site is delimited in the north the rising ground above the river flood plain in the Boyne River valley, and in the south by the canal and towpath (Sites 30 & 31). This Site contains Sites 36, 37 and 90. There are a number of weirs on the river, detailed as separate constraints.
Impact after Mitigation: Positive impact, site will be fully excavated and any archaeological features recorded prior to construction.
34. Townland boundaries of potential pre-17th century date (HC89)
Type of impact: Direct
Significance and quality of impact: Moderate, negative
Description: The earliest maps of Slane comprise the Down Survey maps (1656). The barony of Slane and parish of Fennor are recorded. The boundaries recorded on these maps indicate that the present townland boundaries around the townlands of Fennor, Slane, Cashel and Mooretown were well established when the maps were made and may represent much earlier territorial boundaries, possibly relating to the Norman sub-infeudation of Meath and earlier (Seaver 2005, 81).
Impact after Mitigation: Positive impact, site will be fully excavated and any archaeological features recorded prior to construction.
35. Riverine feature – islet (HC90)
No predicted impact.
36. Potential archaeological sites, Fennor and Cullen (HC91)
Type of impact: Direct
Significance and quality of impact: Potentially significant, negative
Description: A field survey, undertaken to identify the density of lithic artefacts in the plough zone of tilled fields, was carried out in the Slane area, as part of an academic research project (Brady, 2006). The route passes through four fields shown by this study to have potential for early prehistoric settlement in the area.
Impact after Mitigation: Positive impact, site will be fully excavated and any archaeological features recorded prior to construction.
37. Potential archaeological sites (HC95)
Type of impact: Direct
Significance and quality of impact: Moderate, negative
Description: Geophysical survey in advance of the preferred route; survey took in 18 areas, features of archaeological potential and varying scale identified in all areas. The entire route was not surveyed however, as ground conditions in some fields were unsuitable (GSB 2008
Impact after Mitigation: Positive impact, site will be fully excavated and any archaeological features recorded prior to construction.
38. Site of buildings, Slane (HC110)
Type of impact: Direct
Significance and quality of impact: No further impact, features have been removed.
Description: Site of buildings marked on 1st ed. and 2nd ed. 6" maps, smaller building marked on this site on the 25" map. Buildings removed by current (modern) house.
Impact after mitigation: None
39. Site of buildings, Cullen (HC111)
No predicted impact.
40. Site of buildings, Cullen (HC112)
No predicted impact.
41. Site of buildings, Cullen (HC113)
No predicted impact.
42. Site of buildings, Johnstown (HC114)
No predicted impact.
43. Battle site, Rosnaree (HC125)
No predicted impact.
44. World Heritage Site (HC126)
Perceived Significance: International
Type of impact: Indirect, slight visual impact.
Significance and quality of impact: Slight negative
Description: Boyne Valley UNESCO World Heritage Site
Mitigation proposals: Impacts should be minimised by Landscape mitigations measures (See Chapter 8), and through sensitive design.
Impact after Mitigation: Slight residual impact.0
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