The Theory Thread

25-09-2005 4:36pm

I've a bit of a lesson here for becoming proficient at using scales all over the fretboard to improvise over chords:

(I apologise for the crude looking fret boxes I've used, hopefully you can still see which fret is which)

This lesson pre-supposes that you know the tonal (interval) structure of the Major scale, the Nat. minor scale, and the modes.

Okay, There are 5 scale shapes here in total, and just these 5 shapes can encompass all 7 diatonic scales, i.e. all of the modes, etc (Excluding harmonic and melodic minors however)

These 5 shapes are the most convenient ones to use if you use classical guitar technique (i.e. 1 finger per fret, so you can only cover 4 frets at a time, and you must change position of your whole hand, i.e. move it up or down a fret, in order to play a note outside of that four-fret reach).

Also, remember that even though the shapes are named "E major" etc, this does not mean that this particular shape will only play a scale in the key of E major; they are ENTIRELY MOVEABLE, and this naming nuance is explained below.

Without further ado, here are the shapes. ('R' signifies the root note, and the other numbers on each fret indicate which note from the scale it is, e.g. |-6-| = 6th note of the major scale.)

|-3-|-4-|---|-5-|---|
|-7-|-R-|---|-2-|---|
|-5-|---|-6-|---|---|
|-2-|---|-3-|-4-|---|
|-6-|---|-7-|-R-|---|
|-3-|-4-|---|-5-|---|

C major SHAPE

|---|-5-|---|-6-|---|
|---|-2-|---|-3-|-4-|
|-6-|---|-7-|-R-|---|
|-3-|-4-|---|-5-|---|
|-7-|-R-|---|-2-|---|
|---|-5-|---|-6-|---|

A major SHAPE

A major CHORD SHAPE

|---|-5-|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|-3-|---|
|---|---|---|-R-|---|
|---|---|---|-5-|---|
|---|-R-|---|---|---|
|---|-X-|---|---|---|

^^ (Here you can see why it's called the A major SHAPE, even though it doesn't necessarily play in the key
of A. When you take the 1st, 3rd, and 5th notes from this scale you will get the A major chord shape, i.e. the fingering pattern used to play 'A major' in the open position).

|---|-6-|---|-7-|-R-|
|---|-3-|-4-|---|-5-|
|-7-|-R-|---|-2-|---|
|---|-5-|---|-6-|---|
|---|-2-|---|-3-|-4-|
|---|-6-|---|-7-|-R-|

G major SHAPE

|-7-|-R-|---|-2-|---|
|---|-5-|---|-6-|---|
|-2-|---|-3-|-4-|---|
|-6-|---|-7-|-R-|---|
|-3-|-4-|---|-5-|---|
|-7-|-R-|---|-2-|---|

E major SHAPE

|---|-2-|---|-3-|-4-|
|---|-6-|---|-7-|-R-|
|-3-|-4-|---|-5-|---|
|-7-|-R-|---|-2-|---|
|---|-5-|---|-6-|---|
|---|-2-|---|-3-|-4-|

D major SHAPE

These shapes fit together so that you can switch between positions at any time while improvising, this will dramatically improve your improvisation if you learn the shapes linked together all over the fretboard.

The shapes fit together in the order:
Cmaj-Amaj-Gmaj-Emaj-Dmaj-Cmaj....etc over and over.

For this reason, this system of playing the shapes linked together is known as the C-A-G-E-D system.

Here is C major all over the fretboard, to give you an idea:

|.3.|-4-|---|-5-|---|-6-|---|-7-|-R-|---|-2-|---|-3-|-4-|---|-5-|---|-6-|---|
|.7.|-R-|---|-2-|---|-3-|-4-|---|-5-|---|-6-|---|-7-|-R-|---|-2-|---|-3-|-4-|
|.5.|---|-6-|---|-7-|-R-|---|-2-|---|-3-|-4-|---|-5-|---|-6-|---|-7-|-R-|---|
|.2.|---|-3-|-4-|---|-5-|---|-6-|---|-7-|-R-|---|-2-|---|-3-|-4-|---|-5-|---|
|.6.|---|-7-|-R-|---|-2-|---|-3-|-4-|---|-5-|---|-6-|---|-7-|-R-|---|-2-|---|
|.3.|-4-|---|-5-|---|-6-|---|-7-|-R-|---|-2-|---|-3-|-4-|---|-5-|---|-6-|---|

..^.............^.........^.........^
open..........3rd.......5th......7th.....etc
(fret no.)

It is not easy to discern at first, but you can see that the shapes are all linked together in the order of C-A-G-E-D . (^^I included an extra C major SHAPE at the end here also; frets 14-18).

***********************************************************
***********************************************************
If you know how modes work, then you should already be able
to figure out how to play these shapes for the nat. minor scale, or
any other mode (use the same fingerings, but with the Root note
beginning in a different place).

However, for your convenience, I have painstakingly written
them out

|-5-|-6-|---|-7-|---|
|-2-|-3-|---|-4-|---|
|-7-|---|-R-|---|---|
|-4-|---|-5-|-6-|---|
|-R-|---|-2-|-3-|---|
|-5-|-6-|---|-7-|---|

A minor SHAPE

|---|-7-|---|-R-|---|
|---|-4-|---|-5-|-6-|
|-R-|---|-2-|-3-|---|
|-5-|-6-|---|-7-|---|
|-2-|-3-|---|-4-|---|
|---|-7-|---|-R-|---|

G minor SHAPE

|---|-R-|---|-2-|-3-|
|---|-5-|-6-|---|-7-|
|-2-|-3-|---|-4-|---|
|---|-7-|---|-R-|---|
|---|-4-|---|-5-|-6-|
|---|-R-|---|-2-|-3-|

E minor SHAPE

E minor CHORD SHAPE

|---|-R-|---|---|---|
|---|-5-|---|---|---|
|---|-3-|---|---|---|
|---|---|---|-R-|---|
|---|---|---|-5-|---|
|---|-R-|---|---|---|

^^ (The same principle applies here as did for A major CHORD SHAPE above).

|-2-|-3-|---|-4-|---|
|---|-7-|---|-R-|---|
|-4-|---|-5-|-6-|---|
|-R-|---|-2-|-3-|---|
|-5-|-6-|---|-7-|---|
|-2-|-3-|---|-4-|---|

D minor SHAPE

|---|-4-|---|-5-|-6-|
|---|-R-|---|-2-|-3-|
|-5-|-6-|---|-7-|---|
|-2-|-3-|---|-4-|---|
|---|-7-|---|-R-|---|
|---|-4-|---|-5-|-6-|

C minor SHAPE

This probably goes without saying, but, when practising these shapes, I advise you to always start and finish on the root note. Otherwise they tend to sound a bit contextless.

These shapes are useful for teaching you how the notes in scales relate to the notes in chords, and should should really open up your improvisational playing if practiced well.
Cheers

Flynn · 12-10-2005 2:58am

Hey was wondering if anyone can help with a Q...

When is it ok to have a major followed by a minor ie.. play C -> Cm.

How does this work when C is not supposed to be minor... The beatles did it alot and it sounds class but when can you use it?? whats the theory behind it?

Anyone??

LundiMardi · 12-10-2005 2:07pm

Flynn wrote:

Hey was wondering if anyone can help with a Q...

When is it ok to have a major followed by a minor ie.. play C -> Cm.

How does this work when C is not supposed to be minor... The beatles did it alot and it sounds class but when can you use it?? whats the theory behind it?

Anyone??

there's no rules to when you can use it, it's pretty simple, if it sounds ****, it is ****, if it sounds good then it's pretty good.

Incidentally, finger picking between a C and Cm sounds quite nice, as it does with any major and minor chord.

Jeanious · 23-10-2005 4:28pm

Flynn wrote:

Hey was wondering if anyone can help with a Q...

When is it ok to have a major followed by a minor ie.. play C -> Cm.

How does this work when C is not supposed to be minor... The beatles did it alot and it sounds class but when can you use it?? whats the theory behind it?

Anyone??

The only one i cant think of off-hand is Youll Never Walk Alone by jimmy and the crickets or billy bailey and the ....whatever anyway.

Playin it in C, just after ya get to the line "Dont be afraid of the dark", it goes G to G minor. The theory behind it here is that its modulatin to the key of F, the scale of which obviously goes F G A Bb C D E F, in contrast to the key of C whose scale goes C D E F G A B C. So the change in the chord G B D to G Bb D and then the fact that the next few chords are somethin like Bb major, F and C shows that its gone to the key of Fmajor.

So basically G-Gm puts the modulation into effect.

Dave! · 30-10-2005 5:29pm

Flynn wrote:

Hey was wondering if anyone can help with a Q...

When is it ok to have a major followed by a minor ie.. play C -> Cm.

How does this work when C is not supposed to be minor... The beatles did it alot and it sounds class but when can you use it?? whats the theory behind it?

Anyone??

You should read this site on chord leading.

In fact, this whole site is great for theory, if anyone wants it.

tripper · 08-01-2006 9:31pm

I was wondering if anybody out there could help me with playing from sheet music on guitar(like piano music).

Thanks

Fusion251 · 09-01-2006 2:46pm

What do you mean help?
Can you read music?
And what type of guitar music would you like to play?

Cheers
Fusion

tripper · 09-01-2006 9:40pm

Just any link to site that basically help you get the notes on the page onto the guitar, i've got to grade 5 without being able to sight read, i think its about time i learnt. Clasical guitar

PyRoS · 17-07-2006 3:55pm

Just something that has been bothering me for a while. This particular scale which seems to pop up all over the place, does anyone have a name for it?

Starting from E you have

E F G# A B C D

This is almost C phrygian but the sharpened G seems to come from the A Harmonic minor. Does anyone know what you would call this?

Fusion251 · 08-09-2006 6:43pm

That be a double harmonic scale!

1,b2,3,4,5,b6,7...

Fusion

PyRoS · 18-09-2006 12:52pm

Finally a reply!! Thanks Fusion. Could you (or someone) explain how you arrived at that name? On a side note I have since heard this scale called phrygian dominant as well, not sure where that name comes from either.

btw, appreciate the time and effort you guys put into the explanations on this thread, keep up the good work!

curtains · 26-09-2006 1:03am

Okay, maybe I missed this in the above posts, but seeing as the modes of the major scale, for example, as just the same notes but starting at different points, what is their practical application in improvising or soloing?

Alucard II · 09-01-2007 9:10am

i was ****ing about earlier today and came up with this scale. i then put it into Guitar Pro to see what it was, and it doesnt seem to know, which i find odd. anyone here know?

e|-------------------------|
B|-------------------------|
G|-------------------------|
D|-------------------11-14-|
A|----------12-13-15-------|
E|-12-13-15----------------|

nickcave · 09-01-2007 12:28pm

Alucard II wrote:
i was ****ing about earlier today and came up with this scale. i then put it into Guitar Pro to see what it was, and it doesnt seem to know, which i find odd. anyone here know?
e|-------------------------|
B|-------------------------|
G|-------------------------|
D|-------------------11-14-|
A|----------12-13-15-------|
E|-12-13-15----------------|

This is misleading, but if you deal with it in F (13 on the E) then it becomes:

1,2,3,4,5,b6,7

This is the harmonic major scale. What you have is simply a different position of this.

But I'm no expert.

Alucard II · 09-01-2007 6:03pm

cool, thanks man. i asked elsewhere as well, and got the same answer, so expert or not, you know something

in E its apparently E Locrian bb7, which doesnt quite have the same ring to it as F Harmonic Major

slipss · 04-08-2008 3:21pm

Good video by Marty Friedman on how to use apreggrios

http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=marty+friedman+melodic+control&sitesearch=#

and this is is a good site for your scales and modes

http://www.all-guitar-chords.com/guitar_scales.php

SoWatchaWant · 04-12-2008 12:18am

I don't think this has been addressed... does anyone know a link for a decent guide to reading basic sheet music? I'm kinda startin down that road to improve my game, but my google powers failed me, alas.:o

Joey1349 · 13-04-2010 3:01am

Hi, new round here.
Just wondering if anyone here could put my mind straight with 12 tone composition theory and/or serialism?
Im trying to study it in my own time before college stars back to get a head start on it...

Just to clarify, all the theory so far being discussed has been from the 17th century up to the 20th... It changed then as new composers felt restricted by the theory we are all taught when we learn piano or are taught generally in school.
In this type there are key signatures, with sharps and flats defining what keys are.
There are 7 tones in each of these key scales eg C D E F G A B, but with 12 tone composition there are no key signatures as all the 12 possible tones of music and being used at the same time (key) eg
C C# D D# E F G Ab A Bb B Cb.

My question however refers to serialism. I cant find a definition or clear explination of what this is... My current understanding is that it is a rule the composer creates and does to each note as it progresses in a sequence of playing??
i feel this is wrong though! Anyone have any guidence?! Also, am a music student so any theory questions I would be happy to help with

Thanks,
Joey

Behind you Joey · 21-08-2010 11:20pm

Arpeggios help.

kawaii · 24-08-2010 10:06am

Joey1349 wrote: »

My question however refers to serialism. I cant find a definition or clear explination of what this is... My current understanding is that it is a rule the composer creates and does to each note as it progresses in a sequence of playing??
i feel this is wrong though! Anyone have any guidence?! Also, am a music student so any theory questions I would be happy to help with
Thanks,
Joey

In serialist music the composer greats a set of pitches which must be played in order.

Eg. C, B, F, E, Bb, A, Eb, D, Ab, G, C#, F#.

This is an example of a twelve tone row/set - all twelve tones of the chromatic scale are employed. Theoretically, the composer will play the pitches of the set in order. The implication of this is that all of the notes are given equal importance and none are allowed prevalence over others. This gives the music a feeling of groundlessness (as well as usually being highly dissonant).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S0MvEUh5yKA

That's the basic premise of serialism. There are a few other rules which are used to avoid any sense of tonality, but some composers don't bother with them. Even Schoenberg, the founder of serialism and edifier of it's basic rules, found ways around the using pitches in order rule via hexachordal combinatoriality and other fancy things like that. Don't worry about that stuff though!

Hope this helps.

Check out Joseph N. Straus' book, Post-tonal theory, which goes through a lot of the terminology. You probably wont need more than the first two chapters for your course (I never went past there).

There's also a class book on Schoenberg's serialist techniques which I found much more interesting and practical, but I can't quite remember the name. I'll go look it up and post it later.

Hope this helps!

Btw I suggest perhaps starting a thread in the classical forum on this topic for more replies!

Edit: I remembered the name of the book! It's Schoenberg's Serial Odyssey: The evolution of his Twelve-tone method 1914-1928.

You'll need to go to a library for a copy of these books as they're quite expensive, and the latter appears. unfortunately, to be out of print.

skyscraperblue · 10-04-2011 1:09am

Hi guys, I was wondering if any of you could help me...

On flute for my next grade exam I've been playing a flute arrangement of Debussy's "Golliwogg's Cakewalk", and while it has a lot of the normal Italian terms, there are some instructions written in French. Google Translate is just giving me nonsense and I don't know anyone that speaks French, so has anyone here ever seen 'trés net et trés sec' as an instruction or note on sheet music? It'd be great if you could help me here!

(The accents on the e's go the other way btw - I don't know how to get them to come up that way on my laptop, sorry.)

Oh and in case any of you are familiar with the actual score, the arrangement I'm playing is from 'Claude Debussy: Eight Selected Pieces for Flute and Piano' arranged by Peter Kolman. Thanks (:

strobe · 10-04-2011 7:15pm

skyscraperblue wrote: »

Hi guys, I was wondering if any of you could help me...

On flute for my next grade exam I've been playing a flute arrangement of Debussy's "Golliwogg's Cakewalk", and while it has a lot of the normal Italian terms, there are some instructions written in French. Google Translate is just giving me nonsense and I don't know anyone that speaks French, so has anyone here ever seen 'trés net et trés sec' as an instruction or note on sheet music? It'd be great if you could help me here!

(The accents on the e's go the other way btw - I don't know how to get them to come up that way on my laptop, sorry.)

Oh and in case any of you are familiar with the actual score, the arrangement I'm playing is from 'Claude Debussy: Eight Selected Pieces for Flute and Piano' arranged by Peter Kolman. Thanks (:

It means very sharp and neat Sky. Not sure why it would emphasize that. I don't play the flute myself but at a guess maybe it means to play that section in short sharp notes, rather than fluid notes running in to each other? I guess listen to the piece and see if that matches up.

skyscraperblue · 10-04-2011 7:43pm

strobe wrote: »

It means very sharp and neat Sky. Not sure why it would emphasize that. I don't play the flute myself but at a guess maybe it means to play that section in short sharp notes, rather than fluid notes running in to each other? I guess listen to the piece and see if that matches up.

Thanks so much, makes perfect sense with the piece. That's great (:
I like your signature too. Although I think I'd get kicked out of my house if I did as you suggest. Honesty will have to wait until I turn eighteen this autumn.

Yakult · 16-06-2013 10:26pm

Anyone recommend good books that start from basic to advanced theory. Playing bass.

Rigsby · 17-06-2013 9:56am

Yakult wrote: »

Anyone recommend good books that start from basic to advanced theory. Playing bass.

They are not books, but here are two sites that I found very helpful.

http://www.billygreen.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/Music%20Theory%20-%20Basic,%20Intermediate,%20Advanced.pdf

www.studybass.com

Tec Diver · 12-01-2023 9:19am

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/3471767#Comment_3471767

I know this is an OLD question, but I've seen this in classical guitar music a few times now. Starting in the key of E, then go to Em, then back to E. Or similar in another key moving to the parallel minor key and back again.

Tec Diver · 12-01-2023 9:24am

In relation to theory books; my guitar teacher recommended I start with the ABRSM grades, then switch to RIAM after grade 5. His rationale was that ABRSM are really good books and exams at the earlier grades (I did up to G4 theory with them), but then there a big jump in requirements from 5 to 6.

I'd also check out Victoria Williams, she has a YouTube channel and a website with grade level courses you can sign up for (for a fee). I emailed her a theory question once and she replied the same day.

The Theory Thread

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