No Plastic campaign

Tell me how · 30-04-2019 9:17am

Anteayer wrote: »

A lot of them are deciding to use them primarily for visual marketing or for convenience of handling.

There are endless examples:

If you walk around any supermarket there are endless examples of plastic where it's totally unnecessary.

Exactly.
We might view these as totally unnecessary but that is a one view. If legislation was to come in banning all such packaging the industry would react very strongly against it as they would say their brand was being severely undermined. They would argue that preservation and convenience of handling lead to less waste and therefore should be allowed.

Maybe it could happen, cigarette companies had the same argument when legislation was brought in on how their packages looked and that happened but it was one sector of industry and a very harmful product. There were less willing to stand up for them.

I'd like to see people having and bringing their own reusable bread bags to shops instead of using those plastic ones at the bread counter. Same with fruit and vegetables.

I'd be in favour of a €1 surcharge on disposable coffee cups. Keep cup or no cup for takeaways.

They cost more to produce, but are still advantageous if used correctly.

Keep Cup vs Disposable

Anteayer · 30-04-2019 9:39am

To be quite honest if any big brand legally challenges reduction of packaging legislation they would be facing INCREDIBLY bad PR and probably irreparable damage and deservedly so.

The cigarette lobby lost their argument but it also wasn't comparable. The only proposal being made is to ban certain packaging materials. This has no impact on their ability to advertise and there are plenty of items banned for environmental or health reasons already.

I don't really see where there would be a legal case to be argued

Tell me how · 30-04-2019 9:44am

Anteayer wrote: »

To be quite honest if any big brand legally challenges reduction of packaging legislation they would be facing INCREDIBLY bad PR and probably irreparable damage and deservedly so.

I think you wayyyyyyyyyyy underestimate just what goes in in enacting legislation.

They would not legally challenge maybe but lobby heavily against it. Many brands are owned by corporations such as Nestle, P&G, Coca-Cola etc. They are vastly experienced in lobbying against prohibitive laws which may harm their business.

Anteayer · 30-04-2019 9:48am

I think you're jumping the gun with imaginary legal challenges.
It's completely reasonable and possible to implement a ban for environmental reasons. It would probably be best done at EU level though to ensure it actually works smoothly.

There's already moves a foot do exactly that. The European Commission committed to banning non recyclable plastic from packaging and it's been voted heavily in favour of by the parliament.

https://ec.europa.eu/environment/efe/content/european-parliament-votes-single-use-plastics-ban_en

That will be implemented by 2021.

Ultimately environmental and recycling costs have to be met somewhere and as it stands that financial burden is not being met by producers. They are quite literally engaged in environmental dumping.

Also this isn't and the EU isn't Washington DC. While those companies may lobby, there's a much more significant green movement in Europe and politicians genuinely aren't as beholden to big money, due to how things are generally structured in most countries.

Sadly the US Supreme Court has unpicked a lot of the sane regulation of lobbying activities and campaign financing - hence the US has become more and more blatantly driven by lobbyists.

The same isn't true in Europe and in Ireland it's actually trended the other direction with increasingly tough regulation of lobbying and financing of politics.

Tell me how · 30-04-2019 10:00am

Anteayer wrote: »

I think you're jumping the gun with imaginary legal challenges.
It's completely reasonable and possible to implement a ban for environmental reasons. It would probably be best done at EU level though to ensure it actually works smoothly.

There's already moves a foot do exactly that. The European Commission committed to banning non recyclable plastic from packaging and it's been voted heavily in favour of by the parliament.

https://ec.europa.eu/environment/efe/content/european-parliament-votes-single-use-plastics-ban_en

That will be implemented by 2021.

Ultimately environmental and recycling costs have to be met somewhere and as it stands that financial burden is not being met by producers. They are quite literally engaged in environmental dumping.

I never mentioned legal challenges.

Anteayer · 30-04-2019 10:09am

Tell me how wrote: »

I never mentioned legal challenges.

You referenced the tobacco industry on plain packaging legislation. That was a lot more than a lobbying effort. There was significant legal action taken (mostly unsuccessfully) in Australia, Ireland and several other jurisdictions.

The argument about undermining branding was made in court more than just through lobbying

Sam Russell · 30-04-2019 4:11pm

Fyffes and Pink Lady are two fruit brands that do not rely on packaging - merely a little stick on label.

That approach could become the norm.

Tell me how · 30-04-2019 4:15pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Fyffes and Pink Lady are two fruit brands that do not rely on packaging - merely a little stick on label.

That approach could become the norm.

Some vendors sell these suppliers produce with just labels but in many locations they still are in packaging.

50mm Pink lady apples are often sold in bags of 8.
>50mm are often sold in packs of 4 in cardboard containers with a cellophane wrapper.

Similar with Fyffes, pretty sure I've seen them in open bunches and also in plastic bags.

Edit. You are correct, they do not rely on packaging but still do seem to use it quite a bit.

Sam Russell · 30-04-2019 4:20pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Some vendors sell these suppliers produce with just labels but in many locations they still are in packaging.

50mm Pink lady apples are often sold in bags of 8.
>50mm are often sold in packs of 4 in cardboard containers with a cellophane wrapper.

Similar with Fyffes, pretty sure I've seen them in open bunches and also in plastic bags.

That extra packaging is the make life easy for supermarkets and stock control. Also to reduce spoilage and increase shelf life. Lidl sell organic bananas with a paper band around them to distinguish normal bananas It can be done.

emo72 · 30-04-2019 4:24pm

Just want to jump in lads and ask who is the spawn of Satan that decided to put microplastics into cosmetics? Who created microplastics full stop? If ever there was an invention that absolutely nobody wanted or needed, that's the one. There will be a documentary made about this person someday.

Anteayer · 30-04-2019 4:24pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Fyffes and Pink Lady are two fruit brands that do not rely on packaging - merely a little stick on label.

That approach could become the norm.

That approach was the norm for decades. It's been driven by semi-automated stock management and stock picking systems in retail and distribution. They don't want to hire people to handle fruit, so they basically put it all into little containers that can be bulk handled / machine handled.

It also gives the various brands an opportunity to differentiate generic products with fancier wrapping.

There are plenty of other ways of preventing spoilage and making handling easier too.

If you think back even to the 1980s and 90s things were not as packaged as they are now, particularly not fresh fruit and veg. Picking fruit and veg and putting into thin plastic bags was the norm, not picking up trays of items.

On all of these issues, my view is start with the path of last resistance and where you can make most improvement with least disruption. There's huge scope for improving things without impacting people's quality of life or availability of goods. It's just about using better materials and technology or less / no materials and technology and doing a little bit more handling.

It annoys me that for example SuperValu made a big song and dance about their biodegradable fruit/veg bags, yet you still go in and there are endless flow-wrapped plastic covered trays of products that don't need to be in trays.

Tell me how · 30-04-2019 4:29pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

That extra packaging is the make life easy for supermarkets and stock control. Also to reduce spoilage and increase shelf life. Lidl sell organic bananas with a paper band around them to distinguish normal bananas It can be done.

Of course, but then, so much of the single use plastics is purely to facilitate making life easy in some way.

If we accepted that we had to think differently about our expectations, we'd already be using a lot less plastic. Again, the disposable coffee cups as a case in point.

uptherebels · 30-04-2019 4:41pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Fyffes and Pink Lady are two fruit brands that do not rely on packaging - merely a little stick on label.

That approach could become the norm.

A couple of years ago, so not sure if they still are, but when boxes of fyffes were delivered all the bananas were still in a large, fairly robust plastic bag. I'm not sure if there was much of a plastic reduction over individually packaged bunches

Anteayer · 30-04-2019 4:55pm

Tell me how wrote: »

Of course, but then, so much of the single use plastics is purely to facilitate making life easy in some way.

If we accepted that we had to think differently about our expectations, we'd already be using a lot less plastic. Again, the disposable coffee cups as a case in point.

Not to mention that there are fully biodegradable disposable coffee cups. They're a bit more expensive, but when we're paying typically over €2.50 for a coffee and the margins are enormous, it's an utter disgrace that they's simply not just forced to use better materials.

Again, there's a somewhat unrealistic push back onto consumers while allowing the big coffee chains and even smaller retailers away with just dumping huge amounts of plastic into the environment without any logical reason for it other than profit margins.

I've zero sympathy as the margins on coffee are absolutely enormous.

Sam Russell · 30-04-2019 5:09pm

uptherebels wrote: »

A couple of years ago, so not sure if they still are, but when boxes of fyffes were delivered all the bananas were still in a large, fairly robust plastic bag. I'm not sure if there was much of a plastic reduction over individually packaged bunches

Huge sheets of polythene in the cardboard banana boxes, which is used to retain moisture. It could be reused, but probably isn't.

Bananas were shipped in long coffin shaped wooden crates which were returned empty. Most fruit and veg was shipped in wooden bushels, but cardboard has replaced them.

I think there is a need for research and analysis to find a better way. Perhaps not shipping this stuff around the globe might be start. We have lost the seasonality for fruit and veg. Every type of fruit and veg is available at all times of the year.

Anteayer · 30-04-2019 6:10pm

It's only really over the last 30-40 years that we have gone into this extreme disposable society mode.
I remember my grandmother who passed away a few years ago in her 80s doing her shopping back in the 1990s and she absolutely HATED plastic and saw it all as a total waste. People used to sneer at her for bringing her own shopping trolley and picking loose items, but she just hated the waste.
She even reused the hoover bags as she didn't see the point in throwing them away. It wasn't out of any kind of penny pinching or meanness, she just couldn't abide throwing good stuff away and using more resources.

More and more disposable items just became acceptable in a way that was never the case before. We have to turn back the clock on a lot of that stuff. There's no reason for all this waste. It doesn't benefit our lifestyles and it's an enormous environmental burden.

I just don't get how we became this lazy.

Sam Russell · 30-04-2019 6:39pm

Anteayer wrote: »

It's only really over the last 30-40 years that we have gone into this extreme disposable society mode.
I remember my grandmother who passed away a few years ago in her 80s doing her shopping back in the 1990s and she absolutely HATED plastic and saw it all as a total waste. People used to sneer at her for bringing her own shopping trolley and picking loose items, but she just hated the waste.
She even reused the hoover bags as she didn't see the point in throwing them away. It wasn't out of any kind of penny pinching or meanness, she just couldn't abide throwing good stuff away and using more resources.

More and more disposable items just became acceptable in a way that was never the case before. We have to turn back the clock on a lot of that stuff. There's no reason for all this waste. It doesn't benefit our lifestyles and it's an enormous environmental burden.

I just don't get how we became this lazy.

A word that has gone from our vocabulary is THRIFT - where waste is avoided, and extra cost is not accepted. It is not just price - it is the deeper idea of value, and personal values. Repairing a product is no longer considered by most users - sure it is better to replace as it only costs a bit more.

Tell me how · 30-04-2019 7:30pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

A word that has gone from our vocabulary is THRIFT - where waste is avoided, and extra cost is not accepted. It is not just price - it is the deeper idea of value, and personal values. Repairing a product is no longer considered by most users - sure it is better to replace as it only costs a bit more.

We do need to have a very significant shift in thinking on a societal level.

Everybody wants to get a pay rise.
Everybody wants to see improving public services.
Every company wants to see growth in order to afford said pay rises.
Every Government needs the tax revenue brought about from said sales to fund said improvements in public services.
That requires more sales.
Repairing products limit sales.
Designing and manufacturing products to facilitate repair is more costly than not doing so.
Notwithstanding the above, everybody wants the latest and greatest item and so repair is rarely even considered.
And so the cycle continues.

That's a very simplistic summation but consideration needs to be applied at each level at just what it will mean to improve how we do things. There is no step in the current life cycle of products which is optimised for sustainability.
There is potential for revenue streams to be replaced with selling spare parts and for design to allow for products to be upgraded and employment opportunities in the repair of goods but we have a long way to go.

Del.Monte · 07-05-2019 9:59pm

The Island of Capri are taking strong action on the use of single use plastics: https://news.sky.com/story/italian-island-of-capri-bans-tourists-from-using-single-use-plastics-11713684

This is the sort of action that's needed here as well as globally. Not a national conversation about global warming/plastic waste/recycling - but strong, resolute action. If the politicians were remotely serious about tackling the problems facing our environment they wouldn't let a week go past without some new initiative/ban etc. being put through the Dail - then and only then will things start to improve. Ireland can lead the way in this but I won't hold my breath.

Wake up Minister Richard Bruton!

Wanderer78 · 08-05-2019 9:41am

Del.Monte wrote:

This is the sort of action that's needed here as well as globally. Not a national conversation about global warming/plastic waste/recycling - but strong, resolute action. If the politicians were remotely serious about tackling the problems facing our environment they wouldn't let a week go past without some new initiative/ban etc. being put through the Dail - then and only then will things start to improve. Ireland can lead the way in this but I won't hold my breath.

Its quite disturbing how poorly our political system is with environmental matters, we ve a long way to go, but initiatives such as plastic bags would give you some hope

Anteayer · 08-05-2019 10:26am

I was genuinely shocked to see Freshii, that salad bar franchise from Canada, using a plastic bag for every salad they make.

They take the ingredients, put them into a bag and shake it and then throw that into a paper bowl. I've never seen anywhere using so much plastic.

Have they never heard of a bowl?!

Tell me how · 08-05-2019 10:41am

Anteayer wrote: »

I was genuinely shocked to see Freshii, that salad bar franchise from Canada, using a plastic bag for every salad they make.

They take the ingredients, put them into a bag and shake it and then throw that into a paper bowl. I've never seen anywhere using so much plastic.

Have they never heard of a bowl?!

Did you say it to them?

Anteayer · 08-05-2019 11:56am

Tell me how wrote: »

Did you say it to them?

Yeah, but they're just staff working in a franchise. I'll be on them on Twitter.
Googling around, it seems to have been brought up a lot by people in the Canada and the US in the past too and their response is the bags are biodegradable. AFAIK, most biodegradable plastics end up as micro plastics anyway.

Tell me how · 08-05-2019 12:24pm

Anteayer wrote: »

Yeah, but they're just staff working in a franchise. I'll be on them on Twitter.
Googling around, it seems to have been brought up a lot by people in the Canada and the US in the past too and their response is the bags are biodegradable. AFAIK, most biodegradable plastics end up as micro plastics anyway.

Fair play. It is not easy to say something a lot of the time.
I said it to a manager of a Dunnes Stores about the lights being left on in their multi-story carpark all night even though the shop closed at 22:00 and she looked at me like I was speaking Japanese.

They did change them to a timer later, but I don't think it had anything to do with what I said.

Anteayer · 08-05-2019 12:48pm

It's Dunnes - tell them it's costing them money

Guarantee it would be sorted!

No Plastic campaign

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