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View Poll Results: When did you learn the extent of Irish involvement with anti-native forces in America
In school 4 5.41%
College / Adulthood 21 28.38%
This is news to me so 49 66.22%
Voters: 74. You may not vote on this poll

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25-08-2020, 13:27   #46
Tinytemper
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Like John Mitchell and Fr Kenyon?
Yes, they were praised for other deeds but not for their dark history. We don't celebrate this viciousness dispalyed by Irish people partaking in disgusting crimes, unlike other countries.
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25-08-2020, 13:30   #47
whisky_galore
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Yes.
Care to expand on that?
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25-08-2020, 13:33   #48
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Care to expand on that?
Yes, those Irish people who committed these crimes were rightly vilified and ostracised upon return.
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25-08-2020, 13:33   #49
Thelonious Monk
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Yes, they were praised for other deeds but not for their dark history. We don't celebrate this viciousness dispalyed by Irish people partaking in disgusting crimes, unlike other countries.
We celebrate the fact that we colonised Australia and USA though, which wasn't our land. We are no different to any other people.
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25-08-2020, 13:37   #50
 
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I think some Irish people have this yearning to depict the Irish as the bad guys - it's part of the colonial legacy of self loathing I suspect. Anti semitism is a card they love to throw around. Obsessed with De Valera being matey with Hitler (not that he actually was). There is this tendency from some to find it difficult to admit that the Irish were badly treated - that their colonial masters weren't that bad and they should be grateful that their betters taught them the way.

Of course there were going to be bad eggs among the Irish. Of course they weren't all innocent angels, but the fact remains that they were a powerless group compared to the British and other colonial powers. And the Irish undoubtedly experienced severe prejudice in Britain and the new worlds of the northern and southern hemispheres. It eventually passed - due to a lot of hard work and determination - but there's no denying it was once there in a substantial quantity.
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25-08-2020, 13:37   #51
 
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People have this view that the Irish are saintly and never got involved in any atrocities, and it's the Brits who are the devils of the world.
Irish were involved with mistreatment of Australian Aboriginals, Native Americans, and committed many atrocities while being part of the British army. That O'Dwyer guy was responsible for the massacre in India that inspired Ghandi to protest for independence.
There were also plenty of Irish slave owners.
We're just like any other humans, will kill/pillage for food/money/power when necessary.

The crucial difference is that we were under foreign rule at the time ourselves, and many of the "Irish" people in positions of responsibility for oppressive acts overseas were from the colonial class planted on this island to subjugate us.



How many acts of Imperialism has Ireland or even Irish people engaged in since independence?


It's good and timely to highlight evil done by individual Irish people in the service of other Empires, British, American, whatever. The Indian Wars is an excellent example. But to put it on the same level of national legacy as that of say Britain for its empire is a false equivalence.
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25-08-2020, 13:37   #52
Tinytemper
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We celebrate the fact that we colonised Australia and USA though, which wasn't our land. We are no different to any other people.
No, we don't. Any Irish person involved assisting other countries in colonisation are rightly looked down upon as scum. The only Irish people who excuse this sort of person are usually in favour of colonisation by other nations anyway.

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@Tinytemper. Your post falls outside the scope of the History forum in terms of content and language. Please do not post again in this thread for the rest of the day

Last edited by Manach; 25-08-2020 at 14:04.
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25-08-2020, 13:43   #53
Thelonious Monk
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No, we don't. Any Irish person involved assisting other countries in colonisation are rightly looked down upon as scum. The only Irish people who excuse this sort of person are usually in favour of colonisation by other nations anyway.
We do. How many times do you hear people banging on about the Irish building America etc.
As opposed to the poster above, I think we like to paint ourselves as Saints who'd never harm a fly, whereas we're just the same as any other people.
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25-08-2020, 13:45   #54
 
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Originally Posted by CrankyHaus View Post
The crucial difference is that we were under foreign rule at the time ourselves, and many of the "Irish" people in positions of responsibility for oppressive acts overseas were from the colonial class planted on this island to subjugate us.



How many acts of Imperialism has Ireland or even Irish people engaged in since independence?


It's good and timely to highlight evil done by individual Irish people in the service of other Empires, British, American, whatever. The Indian Wars is an excellent example. But to put it on the same level of national legacy as that of say Britain for its empire is a false equivalence.
Yeah I've heard "the fella who masterminded concentration camps was a Kerryman!" Earl Kitchener may have been born in Kerry but he was hardly your run of the mill Kerryman.
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25-08-2020, 13:47   #55
 
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We do. How many times do you hear people banging on about the Irish building America etc.
As opposed to the poster above, I think we like to paint ourselves as Saints who'd never harm a fly, whereas we're just the same as any other people.
Building America as in working as labourers.

And nobody is saying the Irish were perfect.

You however are depicting them as this army of brutes akin to the colonisers. I don't know why you'd want to put out such a false statement.
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25-08-2020, 13:49   #56
Thelonious Monk
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Building America as in working as labourers.

And nobody is saying the Irish were perfect.

You however are depicting them as this army of brutes akin to the colonisers. I don't know why you'd want to put out such a false statement.
Well we were only too happy to reap the rewards of colonisation is what I mean.
Not as bad as The Imperial Brits of course.
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25-08-2020, 13:49   #57
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Yeah I've heard "the fella who masterminded concentration camps was a Kerryman!" Earl Kitchener may have been born in Kerry but he was hardly your run of the mill Kerryman.
Very fond of naked statues of boys too
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25-08-2020, 13:56   #58
 
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Yeah I've heard "the fella who masterminded concentration camps was a Kerryman!" Earl Kitchener may have been born in Kerry but he was hardly your run of the mill Kerryman.

Reminds me of Field Marshall Montgomery going on to BBC's Desert Island Discs and listing "Danny Boy" as he explained that he was in fact Irish himself.


Not to negate Anglo-Irish identity but it is a complex issue, the nuances of which tend to be ignored when people nowadays talk about "Irish People" as having been complicit in the horrors of the British Empire.
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25-08-2020, 14:03   #59
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Yeah I've heard "the fella who masterminded concentration camps was a Kerryman!" Earl Kitchener may have been born in Kerry but he was hardly your run of the mill Kerryman.
"Just becuase you were born in a stable does not mean you are a horse".
Im sure Mr Kitchener would have agreed with his fellow "Kerryman".
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25-08-2020, 14:06   #60
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The Sioux probably had their hands full figuring out the differences between Anglo Americans, Irish Americans, German Americans.
I think it might be a bit much expecting them to break it down into Irish Irish, Scots Irish, Anglo Irish...
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