Moving abroad in late 30’s

Ravn · 31-05-2020 2:43pm #1

Hi all. Im a 38 yo guy and am thinking of relocating abroad for a while as this is something I didn’t do in my 20’s and have always wanted to try at some stage in my life but for one reason or another have not got around to. I have no real ties in Ireland in terms of mortgage, relationships, no kids etc. I do have a good job here and my family are here, but I live in a city a couple of hours drive away from them so only really see them every 6-8 weeks or so (or not at all recently due to current situation).

Part of the reason for wanting to move abroad is to try and kickstart my social life as it has become almost non-existent where I am, possibly due to my lack of motivation. I think I’m a bit stuck in a rut here. Im also pretty fed up with the dating scene and am wondering if it will be a bit better somewhere else. I also think it would be good for my career if I can pick up some decent experience abroad.

Wherever I go I wont know anyone and am a bit worried that at my age I will find it hard to make friends/meet new people. I have no set destination of where id like to move to but I think im leaning more towards continental Europe/USA/Canada. Somewhere with access to plenty of outdoor activities but also a decent social life for my age group. I don’t speak any other languages but im more than willing to learn. I suppose I wondered if anyone is/has been in a similar situation and had made the move abroad, and if so where did you go and how did it work out? Generally, any advice/words of wisdom appreciated.

Moonbeam · 31-05-2020 5:04pm

I suppose it depends on what area you work in,different countries have different opportunities.
We moved to Oslo in our mid and late 30's with 4 kids and after 3 and 2 years here we would find it hard to move to Ireland again.
Hubby came a year before us and had a great social life and is an engineer so plenty of work.

exaisle · 31-05-2020 5:20pm

My advice (as somebody fast approaching 60) is....do it and do it as soon as you can.

It's better to regret doing something than to regret not doing it.

NSAman · 31-05-2020 5:26pm

Ravn, do it if you can.

I have moved quite a bit in life. A few things it does for you personally:

Self reliance
Challenges you completely to become and “know” who you are.
Makes you do things you would never do if in the security of “home”
Make new friends
Opens your eyes to how good/bad things are at home... (and I mean that in both senses of good and bad)
Gives family a place to meet you properly and in your life (if that is something you actually want)
Makes you stop all that what if....

If all else fails you can always go back to the security of home.

It’s a big world out there and there are many many good people everywhere. I know.

Jim2007 · 31-05-2020 8:17pm

Got for it. You have only have one life to live and there is no point in sitting around wishing you had given something a try...

I moved to Switzerland thirty years ago this month, but it was not really planned, it was more a case of going on holidays and forgetting to go home. So I can't comment on making the decision to move.

- Given your age, I'd expect it will be easier to move to somewhere in the EU or the UK as no visa is required.
- Since we don't know your profession, it is hard to say what the job prospects are like.
- Learning a new language can be a positive or a negative, depending on your attitude
- I'd say generally speaking in the small countries, you'll find more openings for English speakers and of course there are all the MNCs

On the social side, no matter where you decide to go, even English speaking countries, you will experience culture shock: You will have to learn how they do things around here and get used to the fact that things will not work out the way you expected. Switzerland is great in terms of out door activities and no matter where choose live you can usually get to the mountains, but socialising tends to happen in clubs and societies rather than at night clubs or bars - even for the younger generations. My daughter, 18, is in the town band and most of her activities - trips, parties etc, are through that and the same for my son, 22, orienteering and so most of the actives he does are with them: - ski trips, travel abroad each summer etc.

One thing I would say, is that if you move, don't spend your time hanging out with expats. Otherwise you will live in a bubble - fail to really get to know the country, it's people and language. You will also have the regular experience of loosing friends as people move else where in pursuit of their careers and so on.

CelticRambler · 03-06-2020 7:55am

Does England count as "abroad"?

If not, then after a decade in England, I moved "abroad" to France at the age of 36 (accompanied by wife & children, so not exactly the same circumstances) and while I'm still officially resident in the same house, my professional and social life extents into all the neighbouring countries.

As a kick-start to life in general, it's a great thing to do, but to get the best benefit you really do need to "go native" and avoid the ex-pat bubbles for the reasons Jim2007 sets out.

As a way to fix a dating drought, though ... the problems of 21st Century dating apply equally in other European countries, and the extra problems of dating in a rural area are exaggerated when that rural area is the twice the size of Ireland but with a tenth of the population!

The way the social scene works in France is similar to how Jim2007 describes it for Switzerland: you need to be involved in something, and go to where the action is and where the people are. Tourists visiting my part of France will tell you that it's "dead" after 9pm, and it certainly looks that way ... but in a normal summer, I could be out three nights of the weekend, every weekend for two months, dancing till 5am in a village hall or a field in the back end of nowhere.

As an outsider, you (might) have the advantage of being to be somewhat exotic, but whether it's for work or dating, your success will ultimately be limited by your ability to speak the language. That, again, is where having a shareable interest comes in very useful. Some interests open more doors than others, of course, and not necessarily those that you might first expect. As anywhere else, some individual groups/clubs can be a bit cliquey whereas others are very welcoming.

Gamb!t · 04-06-2020 3:26pm

Be sure to register on meetup groups for social activities,plenty of ex pats join set and set up social groups.
If language barrier is an issue join a running club that's what I did to make friends abroad

CelticRambler · 04-06-2020 4:29pm

Gamb!t wrote: »

Be sure to register on meetup groups for social activities,plenty of ex pats join set and set up social groups.

Mmm, yeah ... but then you end up in an ex-pat bubble, which might be "vibrant" but, as Jim2007 points out, is typically populated by people who are focused primarily on their career, and not necessarily looking for (or offering) any kind of stable relationship, neither with the people nor the place.

In a European context, it's also incredibly easy to fall back on a shared language (i.e. English!) as a "common interest" which tends to reduce the new immigrant's motivation to get involved with the locals. Sure, you can have "a great time" living like that, but (to my mind, at least) it rather defeats the purpose of relocating to somewhere completely different.

Gamb!t · 05-06-2020 9:00pm

CelticRambler wrote: »

Mmm, yeah ... but then you end up in an ex-pat bubble, which might be "vibrant" but, as Jim2007 points out, is typically populated by people who are focused primarily on their career, and not necessarily looking for (or offering) any kind of stable relationship, neither with the people nor the place.

In a European context, it's also incredibly easy to fall back on a shared language (i.e. English!) as a "common interest" which tends to reduce the new immigrant's motivation to get involved with the locals. Sure, you can have "a great time" living like that, but (to my mind, at least) it rather defeats the purpose of relocating to somewhere completely different.

I had all nationalities in the groups I went to and also French where I was living.

sheepsh4gger · 05-06-2020 9:48pm

If I would be a boomer I would want to be in a country with gibs (free government stuff), healthcare especially. Once you start pushing 40 the prospects of getting sick and not being able to work any more greatly increase. Ireland is better in that respect compared to other states and the US. You also don't want to be a 2nd class citizen. Go to a welfare office and just watch how foreign people are patronized and generally treated like sh1t. If you move abroad you might end up in the same situation.

CelticRambler · 05-06-2020 9:48pm

Gamb!t wrote: »

I had all nationalities in the groups I went to and also French where I was living.

That's my point! Assuming you were living in France at the time, describing social life composed of "... and also French" illustrates a degree of removal from normal life.

Out of interest, what language(s) were used for most of the group's conversations? [I know of a music-and-dance group in Dublin where I feel completely at home when I'm visiting, as it's "my" kind of French music and dance - all kinds of nationalities ... but I was the only Irish there the last time I went! :pac: )

Gamb!t · 08-06-2020 1:34pm

CelticRambler wrote: »

That's my point! Assuming you were living in France at the time, describing social life composed of "... and also French" illustrates a degree of removal from normal life.

Out of interest, what language(s) were used for most of the group's conversations? [I know of a music-and-dance group in Dublin where I feel completely at home when I'm visiting, as it's "my" kind of French music and dance - all kinds of nationalities ... but I was the only Irish there the last time I went! :pac: )

I only attended a couple of groups where English and French was mainly spoken as my French is limited but there were other groups with just all French speaking by ex pats and also French people.
I found the groups a good way to make a few friends and contacts while practicing French at the same time.

NSAman · 08-06-2020 3:57pm

If you have any french at all.... being in a francophone country will being on that French in leaps and bounds very quickly. Luckily I learned French and although I had not used it in a number of years it does come back quite quickly. For those with little French, the day to day shopping and groups like above will improve it very quickly if you put your mind to it. Having to speak a language makes you want to learn it.

For the past few years, being immersed with Greek staff and spending quite a bit of time there, it means you pick up the basics. Friends help, staff help and you just want to be able to converse a little with people. It is the same with Italian and German. Spending time in a country will allow you to understand the basics. Developing on that takes time and also a little homework.

Classes might be helpful also, but generally I find classes plus social interaction means you are far more confident in the way you approach day to day living and not being embarrassed to try means people are very appreciative.

CelticRambler · 08-06-2020 6:28pm

In the end, it very much depends on what the OP wants from the relocation/emigration experience. If it's simply for a change of scene, then there'll certainly be more people and more easily-accessible socialising in major expat/international hubs (specifically in relation to a European move). Whether or not that solves his problem of being "in a rut" is a different matter ... but the settling-in process would usually take a minimum of two years, unless you've got someone hand-holding you every step of the way. Don't underestimate how long might be needed to figure out why "stuff" doesn't work in quite the same way as it does back home.

sheepsh4gger · 09-06-2020 9:21pm

A lot of people move somewhere else or change careers just to find out it's not what they we're looking for and that they are still unhappy.

Some things to add, it's anecdotal or whatever: I knew a local guy who went to Australia because of the sun. He didn't like it and returned. However on his arrival the Irish government treated him like dirt - you get no unemployment benefit etc. even though you worked many years and you're a citizen with a passport. Fellow worked a menial restaurant job just to get by. The government hates returning expats for some reason.

Jim2007 · 09-06-2020 11:23pm

sheepsh4gger wrote: »

A lot of people move somewhere else or change careers just to find out it's not what they we're looking for and that they are still unhappy.

It is better to try something out and discover that it is not for you than to sit timidly wondering what it would have been like if had had the courage to try it out.

sheepsh4gger wrote: »

However on his arrival the Irish government treated him like dirt - you get no unemployment benefit etc. even though you worked many years and you're a citizen with a passport.

Why should you get special treatment when you return? If as a Swiss citizen I leave and go return later I don't get any thing from the Swiss government either. Ireland is nothing special in that since, it just the normal process in Europe.

sheepsh4gger · 09-06-2020 11:27pm

Jim2007 wrote: »

It is better to try something out and discover that it is not for you than to sit timidly wondering what it would have been like if had had the courage to try it out.

Why should you get special treatment when you return? If as a Swiss citizen I leave and go return later I don't get any thing from the Swiss government either. Ireland is nothing special in that since, it just the normal process in Europe.

I know a number of guys who tried and it didn't work out for them.

It's unfair with the taxpayer to be abandoned by your government like that IMHO.

mobileforest · 10-06-2020 7:54am

sheepsh4gger wrote: »

If I would be a boomer I would want to be in a country with gibs (free government stuff), healthcare especially. Once you start pushing 40 the prospects of getting sick and not being able to work any more greatly increase. Ireland is better in that respect compared to other states and the US. You also don't want to be a 2nd class citizen. Go to a welfare office and just watch how foreign people are patronized and generally treated like sh1t. If you move abroad you might end up in the same situation.

"young" boomers are in their late 50s. People in their 40s are Gen X. Another thing to consider is that if leaving the EU, unless he has some very marketable skill, the older he gets the harder it will be to obtain citizenship or similar.

CelticRambler · 10-06-2020 11:00am

sheepsh4gger wrote: »

It's unfair with the taxpayer to be abandoned by your government like that IMHO.

If you choose to emigrate, you're the one doing the abandoning! :pac: Chances are, by the time you decide to come back it's not "your" government either (i.e. not one you voted for) and you'll have been paying taxes somewhere else.

For anyone who's not sure why they want to leave the life they have, especially once you get past 30-ish, staying in the EU is a more practical option. You have access to a wide range of different social, economic and cultural environments, while remaining within relatively easy reach of "home" and, to a certain extent, being able to transfer many of your social security/pension benefits.

By far the most important point to consider is why do you want to leave - if you don't know what you're looking for, you're unlikely to find it anywhere else.

theoldbreed · 10-06-2020 11:10am

CelticRambler wrote: »

By far the most important point to consider is why do you want to leave - if you don't know what you're looking for, you're unlikely to find it anywhere else.

I think this is very important! The phrase 'Wherever you go there you are' comes to mind.

I lived and worked abroad in my twenties, Germany and Canada. I came back home and have liked it, I'm now 38 and thinking I would like to go again...I'm thinking SE Asia. I know being over a certain age is a wee road block for some countries but really age is nothing, life is short. Do it and good luck!

Jim2007 · 10-06-2020 2:55pm

sheepsh4gger wrote: »

I know a number of guys who tried and it didn't work out for them.

So just because it did not work out for someone else, you are prepared to give up on your dreams..... you only get one life to live, not much of a life if you are afraid to chance your dreams.

sheepsh4gger wrote: »

It's unfair with the taxpayer to be abandoned by your government like that IMHO.

But you are not a taxpayer, you left! The entire system is based on PayAsYouGO and you have not been paying into the system in recent times.

I left Ireland over 30 years ago and have not paid a thing into the state since then, how could it be fair to expect current Irish taxpayers to finance benefits for me???

Jim2007 · 10-06-2020 3:18pm

CelticRambler wrote: »

to a certain extent, being able to transfer many of your social security/pension benefits.

Actually you are able to transfer almost none.

- You may travel to another EU/EEA/CH country to seek work for up to 3 months while receiving Irish benefits, but that is it. You are not entitled to further benefits if you remain there.

- If you take up employment in another EU country and loose it shortly there after your Irish contributions may be used to determine if you meet the time period to qualify for benefits, but not necessarily the amount of benefits

- Irish pension contributions may be used in calculating your state pension entitlement in another state, but only if you fail to qualify for any Irish pension. (this is the simply version of the calculation)

- Healthcare in retirement is the responsibility of the government that pays the bulk of your state pension in retirement. This is usually not transparent, if they country has a public health system as it is an inter-state transfer, but if you come to a country like Switzerland where there is no state healthcare, the Irish government has to pay for you to be privately insured.

- The transfer of private pensions, while legal is a mine field as well.

Ravn · 13-06-2020 1:07pm

Thanks very much for all the replies. Some very good and thought-provoking points raised. I think moving to somewhere in Europe rather than further afield would suit me better personally but also in terms of not having to worry about visa’s, restrictions etc. As a side point, I may have the option of moving to somewhere in Europe but keeping my current job and working remotely. It’s something I am looking into at the moment so I thought would mention it as a few people have made points about tax/benefits/pension etc when moving abroad. Has anyone tried this out by any chance? Not sure how practical/feasible it would be….

CelticRambler · 14-06-2020 8:21am

Ravn wrote: »

I may have the option of moving to somewhere in Europe but keeping my current job and working remotely. It’s something I am looking into at the moment so I thought would mention it as a few people have made points about tax/benefits/pension etc when moving abroad. Has anyone tried this out by any chance? Not sure how practical/feasible it would be….

Very feasible. In your situation, as you don't seem to have a particularly burning desire to go somewhere specific, it's probably a great option - a "try before you buy" kind of offer.

If you can hang onto your current residence (in Ireland, I presume?) you can arrange your affairs so that you remain domiciled there for tax purposes, in which case all the tax/benefits/pension/healthcare side of things will stay exactly the same for you, and you can postpone getting into the foreign system until you're sure it's right for you (see sheepsh4gger's post above).

The terms&conditions of your remote working will put some limits on exactly where you can go. Even though I'm in rural France, I've got a 4G unlimited mobile data connection (for a tenner a month) so no problem streaming or up- or down-loading hefty files ... but the downside is the length of time it takes me to get back to Dublin. These days, it's a minimum of four hours just to get to the airport.

On that last point, if your work requires you to make occasional visits to the office, don't base a long-term decision on the existence of a convenient Ryanair service. Many British people of working age came to provincial France in the heyday of the "Ryanair tin shed" airports. It was great while it lasted, but as Ryanair has evolved to chase "real" business, most of those services have disappeared, the airports are closed and, without being able to work from home, the expats have sold up and gone back to the UK.

Gamb!t · 14-06-2020 2:48pm

Ravn wrote: »

Thanks very much for all the replies. Some very good and thought-provoking points raised. I think moving to somewhere in Europe rather than further afield would suit me better personally but also in terms of not having to worry about visa’s, restrictions etc. As a side point, I may have the option of moving to somewhere in Europe but keeping my current job and working remotely. It’s something I am looking into at the moment so I thought would mention it as a few people have made points about tax/benefits/pension etc when moving abroad. Has anyone tried this out by any chance? Not sure how practical/feasible it would be….

I did it for two years living between Ireland and France as CR mentioned below I kept current residence in Ireland so all health benefits,tax,job etc were unchanged but my wife moved over there full time and got into the French system for her job in France.I also paid a registered tax agent in France to look after all our affairs as we had to declare our worldwide income etc.

I found the travelling a bit tiring over and back and also a few other factors which I didnt fancy in France long term.

I would defo recommend trying it if you can keep your job here which is half the battle and and depending on what you do, Irish paid jobs are a lot better than in France,only downside is with remote working,your not in the local system for benefits unless you can get a transfer from work,it will be harder to make friends as you wont be working in an office with your colleagues and your a bit limited.

Jim2007 · 14-06-2020 3:11pm

Ravn wrote: »

As a side point, I may have the option of moving to somewhere in Europe but keeping my current job and working remotely.

Strictly speaking, you do not have a right to do...

Under the rules an EU/EEA/CH citizen has a right to move to another state for the purposes of:
- Seeking employment for up to 3 months, with a possible extension of another 3 months at the discretion of the host country
- Take up gainful employment
- Family reunification
- Living of independent means: investing and royalties
- Retirement
- Become self employed within the state.

And you must establish economic viability within five years or the host country are entitled to send you home. Last year there was a case of France sending a few Germany benefits spongers home. but they had to wait five years before they could do it.

Now most counties don't bother checking this, but in countries where registration is required, they may check and reject you if you don't meet the above conditions. For example, in my community if you wave an EU passport at them they will just accepted it, but in the next parish over (rather right wing), they will check into you in details....

CelticRambler · 14-06-2020 5:54pm

It's perfectly legal to move to/live in another EU member state and (keep) work(ing) for a company based in another member state. The fine detail relates to which country you choose as your primary residence. For a single person with no need to claim benefits, it's easy enough to arrange your affairs in such a way as to *not* have any rights or responsibilities in the foreign country.

On the other hand, that creates an instability which will almost inevitably leave you outside the social circles that are so important to understanding whether or not that place is right for you. Back to the risk of suffering the "ex-pat" never-settle syndrome alluded to earlier.

Most important of all, though, is to float the idea and seek advice before leaving - which you've done.

Jim2007 · 14-06-2020 7:36pm

CelticRambler wrote: »

It's perfectly legal to move to/live in another EU member state and (keep) work(ing) for a company based in another member state.

Really? Can you please give me a reference to that in the directive, I have a friend that was reject specifically for this reason and it would be good if we can direct the registrar to the directive. Thanks.

To be clear we are taking about a person who will continue to an employee of an Irish company that has no establishment in the other state, the employee is the primary earner, will generate no income in the other state and is entitle to bring his family with him under the family reunification rules.

CelticRambler · 14-06-2020 11:19pm

I'm not sure what specific question you're asking, but on a personal level, as an Irish citizen, I live legally, am tax-resident and professionally domiciled in France, and I'm entitled to work for any EU company provided I give notice to the local professional governing body of my intention to provide a service in that state. I have personally been cleared to work in Ireland and the UK (rights recently extended post Brexit) and was asked last week to work for a business in Belgium. As long as you declare your income in your country of primary residence, EU citizens can work for any EU employer, unless the employer has a problem with it.

My eldest son, domiciled in France, is working for two Irish employers. My sister, domiciled in Ireland lives and works in Germany for an EU institution. My nephew, domiciled in Ireland, will be working for a German company while living with me in France from next month. One of my neighbour's children, in the UK, does the payroll for her UK company's French-resident employees.

When talking about a family, especially one with school-age children, there's little scope for choosing as your official domicile anywhere other than where you do your monthly supermarket shopping and where your children go to school, and especially if you've bought a house there; but if you're single, it is very easy to be professionally mobile and legitimately choose a domicile to suit your circumstances.

As I said previously, though: that might be great for getting to see the world (or at least 27 countries of it) and possibly for developing your career, but it's not a great way to build stable long-term relationships, which was one of the OP's stated objectives.

redcup342 · 18-06-2020 1:48am

Jim2007 wrote: »

Really? Can you please give me a reference to that in the directive, I have a friend that was reject specifically for this reason and it would be good if we can direct the registrar to the directive. Thanks.

To be clear we are taking about a person who will continue to an employee of an Irish company that has no establishment in the other state, the employee is the primary earner, will generate no income in the other state and is entitle to bring his family with him under the family reunification rules.

https://ec.europa.eu/taxation_customs/individuals/personal-taxation/crossborder-workers_en#:~:text=Under%20the%20EC%20Treaty%2C%20individuals,State%20but%20live%20in%20another.

Taxation wise you still have to declare where you live but (generally speaking) you pay your income taxes where you work and theres a Tax Treaty between the two states to avoid double taxation.

I did it for 8 years between NL and DE

There are some sticky areas for sure but there's an EU Agency you can use to sort out any issues:
https://ec.europa.eu/solvit/index_en.htm

the_syco · 18-06-2020 2:05am

Ravn wrote: »

im leaning more towards continental Europe/USA/Canada

Continental Europe; would advise you learn the language before you go

Canada; Two year IEC work visa up to 35. After 35, you'll need to apply for PR (max age to apply for for PR is 46). It's a points based system, and you'll need money to show that you'll have be able to set yourself up (to ensure you're not there to leech off the system). After three years, you can apply for citizenship. Would advise you avoid any city with "fort" or "port" in its name.

USA; not sure

Moving abroad in late 30’s

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