Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

The future of the Bray-Greystones line

1356789

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 8,633 ✭✭✭SeanW


    Forcing Intercity passengers to change to a DART at Bray would probably kill the service faster than now - why would anyone bother with that when an N11 bus would continue straight in/out?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 876 ✭✭✭Lord Glentoran


    SeanW wrote: »
    Forcing Intercity passengers to change to a DART at Bray would probably kill the service faster than now - why would anyone bother with that when an N11 bus would continue straight in/out?

    That’s the desired outcome of that suggestion.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,257 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    SeanW wrote: »
    Forcing Intercity passengers to change to a DART at Bray would probably kill the service faster than now - why would anyone bother with that when an N11 bus would continue straight in/out?

    That’s the desired outcome of that suggestion.

    No, quite the reverse.

    If the IC terminated at Bray and returned to Wexford, it would provide a morning service to Wexford which currently does not happen. It would also give an increased no of services between Bray and Wexford. I doubt that all the services would need to serve the Rosslare, given more scope for a highr number of services. How many passengers per day travel from Rosslare to Wexford, and how many travel from south of Greystones?

    If IR wish to close a line, they reduce service level, and make the times less user friendly. This would be the opposite in this case. Now that Dart is a ten minute service, it makes little sense to have inter-city trains crawling behind Darts.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,042 ✭✭✭Rulmeq


    No, quite the reverse.

    If the IC terminated at Bray and returned to Wexford, it would provide a morning service to Wexford which currently does not happen. It would also give an increased no of services between Bray and Wexford. I doubt that all the services would need to serve the Rosslare, given more scope for a highr number of services. How many passengers per day travel from Rosslare to Wexford, and how many travel from south of Greystones?

    If IR wish to close a line, they reduce service level, and make the times less user friendly. This would be the opposite in this case. Now that Dart is a ten minute service, it makes little sense to have inter-city trains crawling behind Darts.


    Also it's intercity in name only. Passengers would be better served if they're not trying to pretend it's something it's not.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,257 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Rulmeq wrote: »
    Also it's intercity in name only. Passengers would be better served if they're not trying to pretend it's something it's not.

    Wexford is not a city, so not even in name.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 28,928 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    No, quite the reverse.

    If the IC terminated at Bray and returned to Wexford, it would provide a morning service to Wexford which currently does not happen. It would also give an increased no of services between Bray and Wexford. I doubt that all the services would need to serve the Rosslare, given more scope for a highr number of services. How many passengers per day travel from Rosslare to Wexford, and how many travel from south of Greystones?

    if IE really wanted to provide any extra services to wexford they would do it. they don't, and they won't.
    If IR wish to close a line, they reduce service level, and make the times less user friendly. This would be the opposite in this case.

    actually this would also be a perfect way to shut the line, and probably a quicker and more guaranteed one at that. shove people off at bray and annoy a lot of them so much so they go elsewhere. increase the frequency and come back down the line and say "we tried increased frequency, no demand, we have to close the line as we lost users and it costs more" . the old service reduction and un-user friendly timetable trick is just 1 of a couple of methods to close a line. assuming that will always be the method brings a false sense of security and allows people to take their eye off the ball when we need our eyes on the ball more then ever.
    Now that Dart is a ten minute service, it makes little sense to have inter-city trains crawling behind Darts.

    well that is how it has to be given the limited infrastructure, and is preferable to your solution.
    Rulmeq wrote: »
    Also it's intercity in name only. Passengers would be better served if they're not trying to pretend it's something it's not.

    i am not sure what exactly you mean here as the line already is operated as what it is, a long distance regional line. most of the other lines in the country bar cork and belfast are operated the same. same stock (some of the time on the wexford line however that is a separate issue) no frills, no first class, a trolly service or not depending on services, etc.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,194 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    if IE really wanted to provide any extra services to wexford they would do it. they don't, and they won't.

    How are they meant to do anything more with the line when they can't afford to invest in it? Sams suggestion would get more out of the line while costing very little.
    well that is how it has to be given the limited infrastructure, and is preferable to your solution.

    Preferable to you perhaps, but if you asked the people living along the line if they'd like a more frequent, regular service, then I suspect that you'd get a different answer. I have no doubt that it would lose people like yourself, but I'd say it'd increase passenger numbers overall.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,928 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    CatInABox wrote: »
    How are they meant to do anything more with the line when they can't afford to invest in it? Sams suggestion would get more out of the line while costing very little.

    the lack of extra services is nothing to do with affordability but to do with lack of will and a cronic shortage of rolling stock doesn't help matters. there will be no increased capacity for a few years for any line.
    also when all real world factors and conditions are taken into account, you aren't going to get much more out of the line with sam's suggestion unless there are more units fourth coming, which as i said is not the case. you aren't going to save units either because dedicating units to a line and not interworking it with other services likely brings it's own complications elsewhere so a dedication of at least 2 units to a bray wexford/rosslare nonsense isn't going to happen. trains also have to return to their depot and not a chance (as it probably will be suggested again) will there be a depot built specifically to serve the rosslare line.
    CatInABox wrote: »
    Preferable to you perhaps, but if you asked the people living along the line if they'd like a more frequent, regular service, then I suspect that you'd get a different answer.

    if it was a more frequent service to dublin, i very much would get a different answer. if it is a more frequent service with a change on to a dart at bray when they can take the car and just drive to bray, or take the direct bus to dublin, i think i would get the answer i believe i would get. in fact if i was a gambler, i would put a bet on it.
    CatInABox wrote: »
    I have no doubt that it would lose people like yourself, but I'd say it'd increase passenger numbers overall.

    i think you would say wrong in reality.
    there is no incentive to use it or for new passengers to use it with a change at bray on to a dart when more direct alternatives are available. it's essentially shifting 1 issue for another when the line needs an actual improvement given the huge growth potential and the fact we can only widen the m11 so much.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,257 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    It takes 1 hr 45 min to travel be train from Wexford to Bray (av speed 75km/hr). By car, it takes 1 hr 30 min (av speed 85 km/hr) . Google maps does not give a train option when travelling from Wexford to Dublin, only buses.

    So for travel time, Google does not rate the train.

    The train would need to get its travel time down to about an hour (av speed 120 km/hr) and then it would attract passengers, but only if it could provide sufficient frequency. Changing at Bray is only a small price to pay for such a service, particularly if there was a Luas connection to Sandyford, and on to the GL and Metrolink.

    The idea of changing from one train to another is what happens if you want to go from Heuston to Limerick, or Ennis to Galway. It is a good way of increasing services at little or no cost.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,865 ✭✭✭prunudo


    It takes 1 hr 45 min to travel be train from Wexford to Bray. By car, it takes 1 hr 30 min. Google maps does not give a train option when travelling from Wexford to Dublin, only buses.

    So for travel time, Google does not rate the train.

    The train would need to get its travel time down to about an hour and then it would attract passengers, but only if it could provide sufficient frequency. Changing at Bray is only a small price to pay for such a service, particularly if there was a Luas connection to Sandyford, and on to the GL and Metrolink.

    The idea of changing from one train to another is what happens if you want to go from Heuston to Limerick, or Ennis to Galway. It is a good way of increasing services at little or no cost.

    Switching trains is pretty standard in other countries. If done right there's no reason why it shouldn't work. But historically we are very bad a joining up anything, even something as simple as timetables, whether its train to train or train to bus.


  • Advertisement
  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,257 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    jvan wrote: »
    Switching trains is pretty standard in other countries. If done right there's no reason why it shouldn't work. But historically we are very bad a joining up anything, even something as simple as timetables, whether its train to train or train to bus.

    Just look at the Rosslare Port where the train leaves as the boat comes in.

    If the Rosslare train goes into platform 1 with a Dart waiting across the platform ready to leave, what can be the problem. Equally the Dart arriving from Dublin pulls into platform 2 and the Rosslare train waiting ready to go on platform 1. Why is that bad?

    Would passengers prefer to stay on a slow IC train that sits outside stations it does not stop at waiting for the Dart in front of it to drop and pick up passengers.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,928 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    It takes 1 hr 45 min to travel be train from Wexford to Bray (av speed 75km/hr). By car, it takes 1 hr 30 min (av speed 85 km/hr) . Google maps does not give a train option when travelling from Wexford to Dublin, only buses.

    So for travel time, Google does not rate the train.

    The train would need to get its travel time down to about an hour (av speed 120 km/hr) and then it would attract passengers, but only if it could provide sufficient frequency. Changing at Bray is only a small price to pay for such a service, particularly if there was a Luas connection to Sandyford, and on to the GL and Metrolink.

    The idea of changing from one train to another is what happens if you want to go from Heuston to Limerick, or Ennis to Galway. It is a good way of increasing services at little or no cost.

    changing at bray is a massive and unnecessary price to pay in reality for something which could very easily be delivered without a change. anyone who wishes to use the luas line when it does open would have the option available to them without effecting the userbase as a whole, and anyone who is going to one of the suburban stations already has the option available. so then we have those going to dublin inconvenienced for nothing in reality. as i said, it's swapping one issue for another and keeping the line inconvenient but in a different way. also in my experience the busses aren't much quicker at peak times but they would be more frequent, and if your suggestion really did get off the ground, direct, meaning hardly anyone new would be attracted to the line. plenty are happy to take a slower train if it is convenient, i am such a person and there are plenty of others, your suggestion means a slow but now inconvenient train which would push the ballance to other methods. sorry but direct trains to dublin are the only option for this line if the powers that be are actually serious about improving it, which i suspect they aren't.
    going from heuston to limmerick or ennis isn't a valid comparison as there never really have been direct services from dublin to ennis, and limerick passengers change to a limited stop, reasonable speed service. a better comparison for your suggestion would be with throwing everyone off long distance services at killdare and sending them in on the suburban service to dublin.there is no change when going from ennis to galway, it is a direct service. unless of course you go the long way around via limerick and portarlington, which i doubt anyone does.
    jvan wrote: »
    Switching trains is pretty standard in other countries. If done right there's no reason why it shouldn't work. But historically we are very bad a joining up anything, even something as simple as timetables, whether its train to train or train to bus.

    it is standard in other countries yes however. those countries have large networks, and changes are generally from short distance branch line services to main line services, or from regional services to other regional services, or from regional services which might be bypassing 1 city but going to another, etc. not chucking passengers off a main line service which currently goes to the city, outside the city and sending them on the already over-crowded suburban service to continue the rest of their journey to the city, where most actually want to go. that is what would be happening with this suggestion.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



  • Registered Users Posts: 28,928 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Just look at the Rosslare Port where the train leaves as the boat comes in.

    this is no longer the case bar 1 sailing i think. most sailings are met now.
    If the Rosslare train goes into platform 1 with a Dart waiting across the platform ready to leave, what can be the problem. Equally the Dart arriving from Dublin pulls into platform 2 and the Rosslare train waiting ready to go on platform 1. Why is that bad?


    because it's pointless. it is a change for change sake. and it makes a convenient all be it less frequent service, inconvenient. also your quick change does not take account of people who cannot simply zip across the platform between trains so we are then going to need a decent amount of time for everything to take place. by the time we would actually get on our way again we would have already been a bit near where we wanted to go.
    Would passengers prefer to stay on a slow IC train that sits outside stations it does not stop at waiting for the Dart in front of it to drop and pick up passengers.

    in my almost 3 decades of using the line, even when darts were very frequent during the boom, this never happened. the only time we were ever left sitting outside a station was due to a train failure or a signal failure, never because the train ahead was stopped at a station.
    a slightly slower but direct train will always be preferable to a change for change sake onto an already over-crowded service where we would actually be stopping at every station, when one isn't actually going to any of those stations.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



  • Registered Users Posts: 6,865 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Don't get me wrong, I think Rosslare to Dublin inter city or commuter train is a better option than changing but only if the speed and journey time is increased. But given the constraints in increasing capacity on the double track north of Bray I think changing to a regular dart service may be the lesser of 2 evils.


  • Registered Users Posts: 24,214 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Does it have to be along the current trackline?

    Could a second line not travel along an entirely different inland route?


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,928 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    jvan wrote: »
    Don't get me wrong, I think Rosslare to Dublin inter city or commuter train is a better option than changing but only if the speed and journey time is increased. But given the constraints in increasing capacity on the double track north of Bray I think changing to a regular dart service may be the lesser of 2 evils.


    a change at bray off rosslare trains does not decrease the journey time or increase the speed of the service. in fact in reality dispite what some will say, the journey time would increase even further then if the train just ran through, between the stops at all stations and the time for the change to take place, which would have to be some bit reasonable to take account of all factors and all passenger abilities. in reality it's not the lesser of 2 evils but the more of 2 evils as in reality the only thing that is actually achieved is as i said, a swapping of 1 problem with the service, for a new problem.
    there is plenty of room on the double track sections for 10 minute dart and even an increased regional service. the only potential issue is greystones to bray but that will have to be addressed regardless of whether rosslare services exist or not.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



  • Registered Users Posts: 311 ✭✭ohographite


    In my opinion, being able to stay on a train from Wexford into Dublin is more convenient than having to get off a train from Wexford at Bray, and then getting onto a DART train to continue into Dublin. This is because the latter scenario involves having to change trains and the possibility of not having a seat on the DART, as it is often busier than the Wexford intercity trains, and it will become much busier as it approaches the city centre. Is the scenario of Rosslare to Dublin trains only going from Rosslare to Bray suggested because it would make more of Irish rail's fleet available?(as in a train arriving in Bray from Rosslare wouldn't be available to return to Rosslare until it had reached Connolly under the current scenario, but would be available immediately under the suggested one) If the small size of Irish rail's fleet is so severe that this is necessary, then I understand why this is suggested. However, if a train from Rosslare arrives at Bray and another train is available to go from Dublin to Rosslare and arrive in Bray just afterwards, then the train from Rosslare can continue to Dublin. This scenario would increase the Dublin to Rosslare train frequency. I apologize to both sides of the argument for taking so long to make this point.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,257 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    In my opinion, being able to stay on a train from Wexford into Dublin is more convenient than having to get off a train from Wexford at Bray, and then getting onto a DART train to continue into Dublin. This is because the latter scenario involves having to change trains and the possibility of not having a seat on the DART, as it is often busier than the Wexford intercity trains, and it will become much busier as it approaches the city centre. Is the scenario of Rosslare to Dublin trains only going from Rosslare to Bray suggested because it would make more of Irish rail's fleet available?(as in a train arriving in Bray from Rosslare wouldn't be available to return to Rosslare until it had reached Connolly under the current scenario, but would be available immediately under the suggested one) If the small size of Irish rail's fleet is so severe that this is necessary, then I understand why this is suggested. However, if a train from Rosslare arrives at Bray and another train is available to go from Dublin to Rosslare and arrive in Bray just afterwards, then the train from Rosslare can continue to Dublin. This scenario would increase the Dublin to Rosslare train frequency. I apologize to both sides of the argument for taking so long to make this point.

    It would be an originating empty train waiting for the Wexford train, so no problem getting a seat. Besides, the Dart would be an 8 coach vs a 3 or 4 coach Wexford train, so plenty of seats.

    The first southbound Bray to Wexford train does not leave Bray until 10:22. So if the first train arriving from Wexford could be on its way back two hours earlier. No train arrives from Bray into Wexford before 12 noon. The first train could arrive before 10 am. This is a huge improvement for those trying to do business in Wexford.

    It is not all about commuters from Wicklow or Gorey travelling into Connolly.

    IR are very short of rolling stock. Not enough Darts, not enough Commuter trains, and not enough IC units. Why run diesels on the Dart lines when there is a 10 minute Dart service?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,993 ✭✭✭✭recedite


    lawred2 wrote: »
    Does it have to be along the current trackline?

    Could a second line not travel along an entirely different inland route?
    You could have a Luas or Dart route going inland from Kilcoole, up to the N11, following along the edge of the road until it meets the Luas extension at Berryfield.

    From there passengers could disembark and go either west towards Cherrywood/Brides Glen or east towards Shankill/Bray.
    For the former group its a short cut, and for the latter its longer but it bypasses the bottleneck at Bray head. Either way it reduces the passenger load at Greystones. Only thing is, you'd have to knock down a few more trees at Glen of the Downs, but I suspect that is going to happen soon anyway.


    But I don't think investing in new rail routes has been in vogue in this country for well over a hundred years. Both the Dart and the Luas were 19th century routes AFAIK, along with every other rail route in the country.


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,587 ✭✭✭✭Muahahaha


    jvan wrote: »
    The other far more worrying aspect of the route is the coastal erosion just north of Wicklow at the Murrough, every easterly storm erodes more and more of the shoreline. The cynic in me would say that it suits IE not to invest a huge amount in the line as it's only a matter of time before nature claims the track.

    Not familar with that area but how close is the sea getting to the train line at high tide? And is it known what the rate of erosion is in that spot?


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 1,256 ✭✭✭Thrashssacre


    I don’t get some people’s obsession with terminating Wexford trains at bray and not thinking it would kill the service, yes people change in other countries but they certainly don’t get off an intercity train 20kms outside he city there going to and get on a rapid transit system honestly it’s a laughable suggestion.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,865 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Muahahaha wrote: »
    Not familar with that area but how close is the sea getting to the train line at high tide? And is it known what the rate of erosion is in that spot?

    Not sure on the data but every easterly storm takes a good chuck out of the shoreline. There doesn't seem to be any urgency to get it protected. Just politicians announcing they've had meetings with senior officals (whatever that means) and posing for photo opportunities with concerned faces and calling for action.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,643 ✭✭✭storker


    I don’t get some people’s obsession with terminating Wexford trains at bray and not thinking it would kill the service, yes people change in other countries but they certainly don’t get off an intercity train 20kms outside he city there going to and get on a rapid transit system honestly it’s a laughable suggestion.

    ...and lot of people work on the train. Having to uproot and change to a train that stops at every station, has no tables and nowhere to put bags would be a real pain.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,257 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    storker wrote: »
    ...and lot of people work on the train. Having to uproot and change to a train that stops at every station, has no tables and nowhere to put bags would be a real pain.

    I accept that point, but not every train has to terminate at Bray. It is a disgrace that there is no morning arrival in Wexford from Dublin. Why is this so?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,643 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    I accept that point, but not every train has to terminate at Bray. It is a disgrace that there is no morning arrival in Wexford from Dublin. Why is this so?

    the train service is effectively for people who aren't in a hurry. If you are in a hurry or need to be somewhere early, the message seems to be "get the bus".

    The line would need a lot of work to improve the journey time and you'd still have the issue of congestion from Bray onwards (regardless of whether the train terminates there or not). The numbers don't add up to do that work, it's a commuter railway with the slow InterCity services tacked on as a bonus.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,257 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    loyatemu wrote: »
    the train service is effectively for people who aren't in a hurry. If you are in a hurry or need to be somewhere early, the message seems to be "get the bus".

    The line would need a lot of work to improve the journey time and you'd still have the issue of congestion from Bray onwards (regardless of whether the train terminates there or not). The numbers don't add up to do that work, it's a commuter railway with the slow InterCity services tacked on as a bonus.

    Is there any way of finding out how many travel on the trains - say from south of Greystones - preferably by train and station, and if possible, where their final destination is?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,643 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    Is there any way of finding out how many travel on the trains - say from south of Greystones - preferably by train and station, and if possible, where their final destination is?

    the Irish Rail annual survey has station numbers, south of Wicklow they're pretty low:

    Page 41:
    https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/National_Heavy_Rail_2018_V8_Web.pdf


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 10,194 Mod ✭✭✭✭CatInABox


    I don’t get some people’s obsession with terminating Wexford trains at bray and not thinking it would kill the service, yes people change in other countries but they certainly don’t get off an intercity train 20kms outside he city there going to and get on a rapid transit system honestly it’s a laughable suggestion.

    This is a thread about the future of the Bray-Greystones line. We're all just spitballing ideas here.

    In my opinion, the current set up for the southern line is unsustainable. There isn't enough people using it to justify further investment in the service, particularly as any investment in fixing the problems starts with a second tunnel and a second track, both of which are very high upfront costs. IR have multiple projects that will give a greater return on any money spent.

    I believe that the best way to show that the line is worth the major investment is to increase passenger numbers with only a minor investment. As far as I can see, the best way to do that would be to increase the frequency on the line by stopping the train at Bray, and sending it back south.

    I hear opponents of the Bray changeover saying that IR are running the rail line down, but if they are, then they're running the line down with the status quo. Keeping the status quo would surely then be a bad thing, so what could IR do (without significant investment) to boost passenger numbers?


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,865 ✭✭✭prunudo


    Even if every second train stopped at Bray it would be beneficial. I don't believe the low passengers numbers are a sign of lack of interest, just that the service and timetabling isn't fit for purpose. I think if the service improved, more people would use. If they increased the frequency from Kilcoole and Wicklow I think it would free up space at Greystones park and ride too.


  • Advertisement
  • Registered Users Posts: 8,633 ✭✭✭SeanW


    I accept that point, but not every train has to terminate at Bray. It is a disgrace that there is no morning arrival in Wexford from Dublin. Why is this so?
    I'd imagine there are few people trying to make such a journey by public transport. I don't use that service because I don't be down that way, but I imagine most of the few people who still do use the service would prefer direct trains to have a better timetable for journeys they don't normally make. Most IC railway journeys are to the main cities, not from them.

    Think about this for a second. Supposing Bus Eireann/Ulsterbus decided "we could make better use of our Intercity coaches if, instead of running services from Belfast to Dublin, we stop the buses in Swords and tell people to get the 41 on to the Airport or in to town ..." why would anyone both with such a bizarre service?


Advertisement