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Internet Card Sharing is Illegal but...

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2

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    #32
    GerardKeating
    Registered Users Posts: 7,527 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    RogerThis wrote: »
    It still a grey issue, I don't distribute my FreeSat from Sky card to any hotels around the country. It would cost Sky a lot more than £20 to take a civil case against me for the FreeSat for Sky card. So I not scared of getting a civil case.

    You are half right there, Sky won't take a a civil case to recover the £20, they will take a civil case to make an example of you to others, cause if they win they can claim costs against you and that will be a lot more that £20.


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    #33
    GerardKeating
    Registered Users Posts: 7,527 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    RogerThis wrote: »
    In the FreeSat from Sky terms and condition:

    "Your viewing card
    You may only use your Viewing Card for private viewing purposes at your Address in the UK, the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands. For security reasons Viewing Cards may be inactivated from time to time. In this situation, if you wish to continue to receive all the encrypted Free to View channels, you will have to purchase a new viewing card at our then applicable standard charge. If possible, viewing card inactivations will be advertised on your television screen."

    "Viewing Card: means the card which will allow you to receive encrypted Free to View Channels when used with a Box."

    Sky seem to think it's a Free To View card.

    Why don't you?

    Or it's a "PayTV Card" that allows one to view "encrypted Free to View channels"..


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    #34
    RogerThis
    Registered Users Posts: 746 ✭✭✭RogerThis


    GerardKeating wrote: »
    You are half right there, Sky won't take a a civil case to recover the £20, they will take a civil case to make an example of you to others, cause if they win they can claim costs against you and that will be a lot more that £20.

    I can't see it getting to court!
    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/justice/civil-law/court_case


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    #35
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    RogerThis wrote: »
    In the FreeSat from Sky terms and condition:

    "Your viewing card
    You may only use your Viewing Card for private viewing purposes at your Address in the UK, the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands. ......
    when used with a Box."

    Sky seem to think it's a Free To View card.

    Why don't you?
    No. They call it a Viewing Card.
    Note the bold bits. It's for one Box.

    Go on. Tell sky the card number and that you are sharing it on your LAN to your other receivers.


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    #36
    RogerThis
    Registered Users Posts: 746 ✭✭✭RogerThis


    GerardKeating wrote: »
    Or it's a "PayTV Card" that allows one to view "encrypted Free to View channels"..

    No mention of PayTV in the Terms and Conditions, where did you get the valuable information from?


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    #37
    RogerThis
    Registered Users Posts: 746 ✭✭✭RogerThis


    watty wrote: »
    No. They call it a Viewing Card.
    Note the bold bits. It's for one Box.

    Go on. Tell sky the card number and that you are sharing it on your LAN to your other receivers.

    Why oh why would I do that? It's a FTV card, I shouldn't be using it in Ireland, but it's still a FTV card. I know you have a wealth of information about satellites, but where does it say that it's not a FTV card, or that the UK FTA scheme has ended?


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    #38
    GerardKeating
    Registered Users Posts: 7,527 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    RogerThis wrote: »
    I can't see it getting to court!
    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/categories/justice/civil-law/court_case

    Sky can be very vindictive when going after those they see as card pirates.


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    #39
    azzeretti
    Registered Users Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭azzeretti


    Roger: your are violating you terms and conditions of your Sky contract as you quoted yourself, you can't use you sky card in any other box except a Sky one. And, as you know, you can't share from a Sky box, you need to remove it and put it elsewhere. Black and White really!


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    #40
    RogerThis
    Registered Users Posts: 746 ✭✭✭RogerThis


    azzeretti wrote: »
    Roger: your are violating you terms and conditions of your Sky contract as you quoted yourself, you can't use you sky card in any other box except a Sky one. And, as you know, you can't share from a Sky box, you need to remove it and put it elsewhere. Black and White really!

    To use the card in another satellite receiver, is breaking the Sky Terms and Conditions. So anybody using a sky card in any other box such as a dreambox in breaking the Terms and Conditions.
    People using the other foreign satellite card to watch the footy, are probably breaking their Terms and Conditions.
    Using the FreeSat From Sky card outside the UK is breaking the Terms and Conditions.

    But is card sharing with a FTV card a grey area?


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    #41
    Minstrel27
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,818 ✭✭✭Minstrel27


    RogerThis wrote: »
    But is card sharing with a FTV card a grey area?

    How do you card share using a Sky box?


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    #42
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    We are not allowed to discuss that. Sharing that information is illegal under Irish Law and discussing it is against the charter.

    But the answer is obvious.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/announcement.php?f=622
    ...

    DON'T Discuss hacking systems.
    For the avoidance of doubt: DON'T Discuss any methods that allow access to a pay-television service, other than taking out a legitimate, paid, subscription to the provider of that service.

    This includes use of ANY non-Cable company supplied decoder or Cable Digital receiver.

    Criminal Penalties for taking Satellite Pay TV or ANY Cable TV without paying the correct amount. (Use of a Dreambox Cable or ******* is contravention of T&C and if used to get "extra" TV a criminal offence anywhere in EU).
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/1990/en/act/pub/0024/sec0009.html#zza24y1990s9
    1990 regulations:
    Prison up to 2 years and/or Fine up to 20,000 under theft of service/install of Pirate Equipment

    AND/OR
    European Communities (Conditional Access) Regulations, 2000

    (9) A person who, without reasonable excuse, fails to comply with any request or requirement made by an authorised officer under this Regulation is guilty of an offence.


    (10) A person who obstructs or interferes with an authorised officer in the exercise of his or her powers under this Regulation or gives an authorised officer information which is false or misleading is guilty of an offence.
    6. (1) A person guilty of an offence under these Regulations shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding £1,500 or to imprisonment for a term not exceeding 12 months, or to both.
    DON'T Discuss methods of accessing pay-TV systems, the content of which is not meant to be viewed in the Republic of Ireland or the United Kingdom. .


    New July 2009: DON'T Discuss methods of circumventing regional restrictions on streaming media services such as (but not limited to) RTÉ Player, BBC iPlayer, Sky Player etc.


  • Options
    #43
    RogerThis
    Registered Users Posts: 746 ✭✭✭RogerThis


    Minstrel27 wrote: »
    How do you card share using a Sky box?

    Minstrel, you should know better, than to ask that!


    To sum up:

    1. Internet card sharing is illegal
    2. Discussing how to implement card sharing is illegal under Irish law and breaks boards rules.
    3. Using a FreeSat from Sky card outside the UK violating the Terms and Conditions
    4. People that violate Terms and Conditions are parasites
    5. FreeSat from Sky card is a PayTV card [citation needed]
    6. FreeSat from Sky card is a FTV card according to Sky's Terms and Conditions
    7. Card sharing with a FTV card with a LAN is a grey area


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    #44
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    RogerThis wrote: »
    2. Discussing how to implement card sharing is illegal under Irish law
    Is it??? I thought we had free speech in this country.

    Discussing how to copy CDs, DVDs, software, etc isn't illegal?


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    #45
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    JHMEG wrote: »
    Is it??? I thought we had free speech in this country.

    Discussing how to copy CDs, DVDs, software, etc isn't illegal?

    You'll find that discussing how to make a bomb is illegal too.

    Discussing how to copy CDs, DVDs, software, etc isn't illegal. Even doing it may not be illegal.

    Hacking PayTV systems and "enabling" the hacking of Pay TV is illegal in Ireland. Discussing how to card share could be construed as "enabling" the hacking of Pay TV.

    There is probably no difference in Irish law between "Internet Card Sharing" and "card sharing" on a LAN.

    You'd want to seek expert legal advice. Especially folks that want to proclaim something is OK when it may not be.

    Also there is limits to free speech in all countries and stricter limits to "free speech" on Boards.

    Take it to the Admins if you don't believe me. Read the Forum charter and boards.ie rules.


  • Options
    #46
    eamonnq
    Registered Users Posts: 4,009 ✭✭✭eamonnq


    RogerThis wrote: »
    Is it illegal to card share within a LAN?

    I have a FreeSat from Sky card for Channel 4 HD and the extra Five channels. I was thinking of using this card to card share between two linux boxes within my house. Would I be breaking the law by doing so?

    It seems like a grey area to me!

    Twas always the way on the web, you ask a question, you get an answer and if you don't like the answer you get, you argue it.

    You asked a question, you got your answer!!!


    Best of luck with whatever you decide to do, as I am sure that any answer given on here will not affect your decision!!!


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    #47
    watty
    Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    RogerThis wrote: »
    Minstrel, you should know better, than to ask that!



    4. People that violate Terms and Conditions are parasites

    6. FreeSat from Sky card is a FTV card according to Sky's Terms and Conditions
    No, people that take things that are paid for by everyone else is a parasite.

    No, Sky says it's a "Viewing Card" that decrypts FTV channels.

    The FTV scheme in UK is over.     Fiver, FiveUS and Sky3 are not traditional FTV channels it's up to sky which channels it enables for a once off payment on a viewing card. Sky is a PayTV operator. It's a PayTV card as you can use it for a UK subscription. Ask an expert lawyer if "sharing" it is legal apart from copyright issues and Sky T&C.

    The past opinion is that Card Sharing is simply an easier way to hack PayTV encryption as a real card is used. The scheme was outlined many years ago in Analogue era and it was only lack of LANs and Broadband that prevented deployment.


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    #48
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    watty wrote: »
    You'll find that discussing how to make a bomb is illegal too.
    watty wrote: »
    You'd want to seek expert legal advice.
    Watty, you're making sweeping statements about the law without any proof, and then saying seek legal advice.

    You can talk about pretty much anything in this country, as far as I am concerned. No topic of conversation is illegal. This isn't Iran.
    watty wrote: »
    Also there is limits to free speech in all countries and stricter limits to "free speech" on Boards.

    Take it to the Admins if you don't believe me. Read the Forum charter and boards.ie rules.
    Boards rules have nothing to do with the law!


  • Options
    #49
    JHMEG
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,686 ✭✭✭JHMEG


    watty wrote: »
    No, people that take things that are paid for by everyone else is a parasite.
    Including anyone that watches FTA or FTV British TV then, as we are not UK licence payers?

    Watty, I think you're over analysing this whole topic.


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    #50
    garrycann78
    Registered Users Posts: 147 ✭✭garrycann78


    Watty, do your posts have to contain legal jargon all the time. I think you are pushing out legal quotes with no basis for some of them at all. maybe on boards its not allowed to discuss cs or any pay TV hack but i sure as hell will discuss these anywhere i want. as mentioned its not the middle east we're in. if i didnt know better i would assume you are a wannabe solicitor.


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    #51
    RogerThis
    Registered Users Posts: 746 ✭✭✭RogerThis


    watty wrote: »
    No, Sky says it's a "Viewing Card" that decrypts FTV channels.

    A viewing card that decrypts FTV channels is a FTV card.

    T&C's for FreeSat from Sky

    5. Law and Geographical limits
    (a) This agreement is governed by English law. Any court proceedings relating to disputes arising under this agreement must be dealt with by the courts in England and Wales or any other United Kingdom court that can lawfully deal with the case.

    So violating the T&C's don't apply in the Republic?


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    #52
    RogerThis
    Registered Users Posts: 746 ✭✭✭RogerThis


    JHMEG wrote: »
    Including anyone that watches FTA or FTV British TV then, as we are not UK licence payers?

    Seems like anyone with FreeSat box in Ireland is a parasite.

    Or the people in the east coast getting DTT from Wales, are they parasites too?

    Or the people that receive the relay of the English stations over analogue all over Ireland?

    We are a real parasitic nation!


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    #53
    Minstrel27
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,818 ✭✭✭Minstrel27


    RogerThis wrote: »
    Seems like anyone with FreeSat box in Ireland is a parasite.

    Or the people in the east coast getting DTT from Wales, are they parasites too?

    Or the people that receive the relay of the English stations over analogue all over Ireland?

    We are a real parasitic nation!

    EU law says watching FTA signals is perfectly legal.


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    #54
    MisterAnarchy
    Registered Users Posts: 14,521 ✭✭✭✭MisterAnarchy


    Internally sharing a viewing card is a heinous offence,one for which SKY will hunt you down.
    As a matter of fact I'm sure they will be sending Reuven Hazak (former deputy head of Israel's Shin Bet ) and former would-be terrorist, Yossi Tsuria, who became chief technical officer of NDS in Israel over to your house to discuss it with you.:D


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    #55
    RogerThis
    Registered Users Posts: 746 ✭✭✭RogerThis


    Minstrel27 wrote: »
    EU law says watching FTA signals is perfectly legal.

    Not the point, we don't pay a British TV licence so we don't pay for the service. Therefore we are parasites.


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    #56
    RogerThis
    Registered Users Posts: 746 ✭✭✭RogerThis


    watty wrote: »

    The FTV scheme in UK is over.     Fiver, FiveUS and Sky3 are not traditional FTV channels it's up to sky which channels it enables for a once off payment on a viewing card. Sky is a PayTV operator. It's a PayTV card as you can use it for a UK subscription.

    People over in digital spy seem to disagree.
    http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1307212

    The FTV scheme in the UK is alive and well.
    The FreeSat from Sky is a FTV card.
    The FreeSat from Sky can't be upgraded to a PayTV card, they need to sent you out a new one.
    The FreeSat from Sky card is NOT a PayTV card.


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    #57
    azzeretti
    Registered Users Posts: 1,477 ✭✭✭azzeretti


    watty wrote: »
    You'll find that discussing how to make a bomb is illegal too.

    .

    You'll find you might need to put things in context. Discussing how to make a bomb is certainly not illegal if there is no criminal intent. An example would be a discussion on how one might perform a controlled building demolition. The tools used to perform such task are just as dangerous but you can't really think a discussion about it is illegal.

    Granted card sharing is illegal but I can't see that any discussion that isn't liable or seen to entice a crime could be illegal. There certainly are limits to freedom of speech but if you look closer you will see the law has them covered; racist comments, bullyish remarks, enticing violance etc are all explicitly referenced, and rightly so.

    Everything with in context Watty.......


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    #58
    RogerThis
    Registered Users Posts: 746 ✭✭✭RogerThis


    Would many consider it fair use, to card share within one's home with a PayTV card?

    Satellite providers are only covering there costs by the monthly multi room subscriptions. They sell the boxes for less that €200, but the boxes are a lot more expensive. They probably don't make any money on them until you have them over a year.

    So if you buy your own equipment, is it fair use to LAN card share within the confines of your home?

    Terms and conditions are all well and good, but if you stuck by them the world would be a boring place.


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    #59
    Manc-Red
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,329 ✭✭✭Manc-Red


    RogerThis wrote: »
    Would many consider it fair use, to card share within one's home with a PayTV card?

    I'd be very surprised if anyone on here actually thought it would be considered theft if they we're to share within their own homes when the main sub is being payed for legitimately.....


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    #60
    Minstrel27
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,818 ✭✭✭Minstrel27


    RogerThis wrote: »
    Not the point, we don't pay a British TV licence so we don't pay for the service. Therefore we are parasites.

    It is very much the point. It is hardly my fault that their signals are available to me. You could say that they are intruders.


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    #61
    Manc-Red
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,329 ✭✭✭Manc-Red


    RogerThis wrote: »
    Not the point, we don't pay a British TV licence so we don't pay for the service. Therefore we are parasites.

    Get a grip will ya - This is TV not bank-robbery for heavens sake


This discussion has been closed.
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