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The Stanford case - **MOD WARNING POST 46**

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    sullivlo wrote: »
    I don't want to drag the thread off topic so am happy to move this to PM. I mean no offence to anyone in saying this, but "working in the area" doesn't necessarily provide a representative overview of actual attacks.

    Your work involves those who want to work through it, I assume. These are people who have the courage to come forward and seek help. And it's likely that of those people, not everyone will have reported it to the authorities.

    What I'm trying to say is that reports don't always effectively cover the actual levels of assault.

    I say this as someone who knows of three people who were assaulted by females. So in my experience, no men ever assault anyone, as nobody has shared that experience with me.

    (I'm not likely making any sense, so apologies!)

    That's why I qualified my comments with the 'in my experience' bit :rolleyes: In all my years I've only dealt with three cases involving a female abuser so my drop in the ocean comment is valid. That has been my experience.

    I don't deny that women commit sexual abuse but let's not pretend it's anywhere near in the same numbers as men. It's overall a small percentage of the total male population, most men are honest, decent and kind but I shouldn't even have to say that. Talking about male perpetrators does not mean we are talking about all or even most men or that we are in denial about women abusers and frankly I'm a bit surprised we have to try and placate the one poster who objects to it. This is a thread about rape after all.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭sullivlo


    eviltwin wrote: »
    That's why I qualified my comments with the 'in my experience' bit :rolleyes: In all my years I've only dealt with three cases involving a female abuser so my drop in the ocean comment is valid. That has been my experience.

    I don't deny that women commit sexual abuse but let's not pretend it's anywhere near in the same numbers as men. It's overall a small percentage of the total male population, most men are honest, decent and kind but I shouldn't even have to say that. Talking about male perpetrators does not mean we are talking about all or even most men or that we are in denial about women abusers and frankly I'm a bit surprised we have to try and placate the one poster who objects to it. This is a thread about rape after all.

    No need for the :rolleyes: - I clarified my point further down. My point being that it comes down to personal experience and there is no "standard" reporting in many of these cases. I'm not denying that men are the overwhelming majority of abusers, however I feel it's a bit disingenuous to ignore the fact that women rape too.

    That's all I meant.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    sullivlo wrote: »
    No need for the :rolleyes: - I clarified my point further down. My point being that it comes down to personal experience and there is no "standard" reporting in many of these cases. I'm not denying that men are the overwhelming majority of abusers, however I feel it's a bit disingenuous to ignore the fact that women rape too.

    That's all I meant.

    Apologies for the roll eye, I'm just very frustrated by the piece you feel you had to write. It doesn't feel appropriate to me in a thread about a man raping a woman.

    Again I did not ignore the fact that women abuse or rape too, I've mentioned it three times now. This is a thread about a man raping a woman and the female perspective of that so why can't we discuss that in isolation. No one said women are never abusers so I just didn't see why it was relevant to put it in. It comes across as whataboutery.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭sullivlo


    eviltwin wrote: »
    Apologies for the roll eye, I'm just very frustrated by the piece you feel you had to write. It doesn't feel appropriate to me in a thread about a man raping a woman.

    Again I did not ignore the fact that women abuse or rape too, I've mentioned it three times now. This is a thread about a man raping a woman and the female perspective of that so why can't we discuss that in isolation. No one said women are never abusers so I just didn't see why it was relevant to put it in. It comes across as whataboutery.

    Which is why I have suggested taking it to PM as to stop derailing the thread.


  • Registered Users Posts: 641 ✭✭✭NI24


    What I can't understand about this case is why the judge would do what he did. This case was well-known and he knew many eyes would be on him, so you would think he would punish the criminal accordingly. Now people are asking for the judge to be recalled.

    The guy's parents actually did him a disservice by pleading for a lighter sentence, all it did was bring more attention to the case. Now the criminal and his parents are despised. I wonder if the guy will actually live this down, whereas before he had at least a good chance of people forgetting his name.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    This is judges explanation on sentence:
    Persky said he would recommend probation, as called for in the probation report, with six months in county jail.

    “I acknowledge the devastation,” he said, of the crime and the trial and the intense publicity, that had “poisoned the lives” of people affected by Turner’s actions.

    The question he asked himself, he said, was whether state prison was the antidote for that poison — in effect, whether prison time would cure the poisoning of the victim’s life.

    Probation is prohibited for such cases, he explained, except in unusual cases in which justice would best be served by it. He detailed the factors that he balanced in considering his decision, including intoxication, lack of a weapon, lack of criminal sophistication.

    The probation officer argued that the presence of alcohol made the circumstances less serious than typical cases. Persky said the argument could be made that someone who was sober would be more morally culpable of such a crime than someone who was very drunk. That circumstance alone didn’t meet the legal requirement of substantially less serious facts or circumstances, he said; he also noted it’s not an excuse.

    Turner’s youth — he is 20 — and lack of criminal convictions led Persky to consider probation, he said. Evidence from the prosecution about a pending case for possession of alcohol as a minor, and cell phone messages about drug use were not enough to negate the lack of convictions, he said.

    The victim was extremely vulnerable. The impact was emotionally devastating, he said, which was a factor against probation, as was the fact that Turner was an active participant.

    But letters from friends and family praising Turner’s character, his ability to comply with probation and the severe impact a prison sentence would have on him influenced Persky. He cited the lasting impact of the sex offender label and requirements, and the trial publicity on Turner.

    He said he believed Turner felt genuine remorse.

    He acknowledged that the victim believed Turner didn’t understand what he had done. Turner’s lawyer had argued that Turner believed he had the victim’s consent. “I take him at his word that, subjectively, that’s his version of events,” Persky said, according to court documents. In essence, he said the defendant doesn’t have to agree with the verdict to feel truly sorry.

    He did not think Turner would be a danger to others. He again referred to the character letters, including one from a friend of Turner’s since elementary school, who said she never would have believed Turner would be in this position.

    That rang true for him, Persky said, seeing a person who had done well in life until that night.
    Source:
    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/stanford-rape-case-judge-explains-controversial-brock-turner-sentence-a7083406.html

    Parts of the reasoning make me very uncomfortable because one would assume justice should be blind to social standing of the perpetrator. Not to mention how much importance is given to intoxication.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,237 ✭✭✭Sonics2k


    Had the consent of an unconscious woman. For fúck sake.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,442 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    I didn't say anywhere in that sentence that all men are like that.


    The generalisation that Ivy was referring to, was the statement made by your friend:

    I have talked to many men about this over the years and one said something that is relevant here. He said 'if we are beaten up by another boy when we are small we are told it is our fault for being weak. This then feeds into us never wanting to be weak again and treating anyone weaker than us including women, with aggression.


    The fact that you put so much weight behind one person's opinion simply because it agrees with your own ill-informed opinion, rather than informing yourself about the facts, really suggests that one, or both of you doesn't know what they're talking about:


    Most sex offenders were not sexually or physically abused as children. In one study of 114 convicted rapists, 91% denied experiencing childhood sexual abuse; 66% denied experiencing childhood physical abuse; and 50% admitted to having non-violent childhoods. (Scully, 1990).


    Source: "Understanding the Perpetrator", Sexual Assault Prevention and Awareness Centre, University of Michigan

    In fact in my work, I constantly look at it from both sides, as this is what it is needed in order to help.


    Well yes, looking at the issue from both sides and all perspectives is what's needed in order to help. I find it difficult to take your claim seriously that you actually do that though, when you come out with statements like this:

    I was delighted with many aspects of this case, as someone who constantly aims to promote women's rights.
    Women are starting to get their voices heard more, and it's great to see everyone protest about this one.

    A lot of good will come out of this. More women will start to stand up for themselves.
    And yours is? Educate yourself. I just looked at one study there carried out by the department of justice in the U.S. Quote: '99% of perpetrators of rape were male'.
    Sullivlo I'm surprised by that response to be honest. Every statistic out there and every report carried out says that sexual offenders are overwhelmingly male.
    The men that do this are not able to comprehend the damage it does- lack of empatjy. actually society in general doesnot have a full understanding of the damage it does, or else rapists would get much longer sentences. There was one study where boys were taught in school about the effect of rape,it was a beautiful study and the boys said they gained alot of insight. We need to have this in schools here.


    Now, I left that particular hum-dinger 'til last because I wanted to address specifically your claims that society in general does not have a full understanding of the damage that rape does. I don't know how you could conclude such a thing when surveys put the number of men in society who commit rape at about 7%? That's 93% of men in society who actually do understand, quite well it would appear, the damage that rape does. What bearing you think that should have on sentencing is beyond me as your average Joe and Jane soaps don't determine the sentencing in rape cases. That is the duty of a whole bodies of legislators who are well versed in a number of different areas relating to the law. Thankfully for civilised society, we've moved past the whole idea of mob justice. A jury of their peers would only determine a defendants guilt, as they are presumed innocent. Their deliberations have no bearing on sentencing, in any case. There was however, an interesting study done by a lecturer in law here in Ireland which examined people's attitudes to the issue:

    Bad Laws or Bad Attitudes? Assessing the Impact of Societal Attitudes upon the Conviction Rate for Rape in Ireland

    Now, as for your assertion that we need a study done on boys being taught about rape in school (you'll forgive me for raising an eyebrow at your referring to it as a 'beautiful' study, perhaps 'enlightening' would have been a more appropriate word?), we have education similar to that in Irish schools already which is delivered in the form of Relationships and Sexuality Education (RSE). In fact only this morning I had to sign the consent form so that my child could participate in the programme for next year. It's run in primary schools as part of the "Stay Safe" programme, and yes, it's particularly insightful and useful to educate and encourage boys and girls to understand sex and sexuality and to talk about it among themselves and their parents. It encourages respect for themselves and each other and helps them to identify and understand ways to keep themselves and other people safe.


    Men who commit these crimes do it for power, and this usually ties in with feeling weak at some stage in their lives.


    That's not what statistics tell us at all though. There are an infinite number of motivations as to why men commit rape, why anyone commits sexual violence against another person in fact, but I don't want to stray too far away from addressing your ill-informed assertion that men who commit rape do so solely for power, which is based upon another ill-informed assertion that they feel weak at some point in their lives. If that were actually the case, we'd see far more than just 7% of men who commit rape. That's ignoring the fact that 93% of men don't commit rape.

    There is a lot of pressure on young men that they are not real men if they don't do: this, this and this, (what society tells them)etc. and they are told that sexual conquests equal being masculine


    There's quite a difference between sexual conquests being masculine, and rape (I don't think sexual conquests are inherently a masculine idealism as sexual conquests are just as much a matter of importance among women btw, but I'll leave that aside). Young men are also told by society that rape is an utterly despicable crime, and that rather than there being anything masculine about it, society tells men that quite the opposite is the case - rapists are utter scumbags. 100% of men are taught this, 7% of men ignore what they've been taught throughout their lives.

    I have worked with alot of young men, and believe me, I am not out to point the finger at men, I want a better world for both genders.


    Given your ill-informed claims in this thread so far, I find it difficult to believe you aren't out to point the finger at men, though I do believe you're at least sincere when you say you want a better world for both genders. Just what constitutes a better world for both genders, and how you're choosing to go about it, is what I find particularly eyebrow raising.

    Statistics in adult sexual assault cases and child sexual assault cases show that sexual offenders are overwhelmingly male, and a lot of delicate social factors tie into that.


    That depends upon what statistics you're actually quoting, and seeing as you haven't quoted any sources apart from alluding to a US DOJ study done in 1997 that found:

    Overall, an estimated 91% of the victims of rape and sexual assault were female. Nearly 99% of the offenders they described in single-victim incidents were male.


    So 91% of the victims of rape who were women, described their attacker as male in 99% of single-victim instance cases. That's really not the shocking statistic it sounds like, but here's one that might just raise an eyebrow:


    Most perpetrators of all forms of sexual violence against women were male. For female rape victims, 98.1% reported only male perpetrators. Additionally, 92.5% of female victims of sexual violence other than rape reported only male perpetrators. For male victims, the sex of the perpetrator varied by the type of sexual violence experienced. The majority of male rape victims (93.3%) reported only male perpetrators. For three of the other forms of sexual violence, a majority of male victims reported only female perpetrators: being made to penetrate (79.2%), sexual coercion (83.6%), and unwanted sexual contact (53.1%). For non-contact unwanted sexual experiences, approximately half of male victims (49.0%) reported only male perpetrators and more than one-third (37.7%) reported only female perpetrators (data not shown).


    Source: National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey, 2010 Survey Report


    Contact CSA was reported by 16% of males and 25% of females. Men reported female perpetration of CSA nearly 40% of the time, and women reported female perpetration of CSA 6% of the time. CSA significantly increased the risk of the outcomes. The magnitude of the increase was similar for men and women. For example, compared to reporting no sexual abuse, a history of suicide attempt was more than twice as likely among both men and women who experienced CSA (p<0.05). Compared with those who did not report CSA, men and women exposed to CSA were at a 40% increased risk of marrying an alcoholic, and a 40% to 50% increased risk of reporting current problems with their marriage (p<0.05).


    Source: Long-Term Consequences of Childhood Sexual Abuse by Gender of Victim

    And a few studies and articles that are worth reading when you get time:

    Educator Sexual Misconduct: A Synthesis of Existing Literature (A study carried out by the US Dept of Education)

    Child Sexual Abuse Statistics, Darkness To Light.

    The long-term effects of child sexual abuse (Gender differences in the long-term impacts of child sexual abuse and gaps in understandings of male victims/survivors), Child Family Community Australia.

    And yours is? Educate yourself. I just looked at one study there carried out by the department of justice in the U.S. Quote: '99% of perpetrators of rape were male'.


    This is really what ticked me off last night when I read your posts, and I thought to myself just let it go, as it was clear from your own posts that you hadn't educated yourself, nor did you appear to have any wish to educate yourself, but to then tell other people to educate themselves, when if you actually want a better world for both genders? That just beggars belief tbh. The onus is on you to share with people any information you have, if you want them to be informed, rather than simply dismissing people by telling them to "educate themselves", especially when you come out with stuff like this, which as demonstrated above, is patently untrue:

    Sullivlo I'm surprised by that response to be honest. Every statistic out there and every report carried out says that sexual offenders are overwhelmingly male.

    sullivlo wrote: »
    Oh yes, I am aware of that. I'm just pointing out that statistics don't always tell the full story. I'm not disputing that the majority of offenders are male, I'm merely querying the 99%/drop in the ocean comments. I just find it hard to believe that it's that low - studies I have read have suggested that in the region of 5-10% of offences are by women.

    Anyway, don't want to derail the thread. Happy to discuss further though.


    Sullvio I hadn't meant to derail the thread, but I hope you'll allow just this one post to stand, as I know this is the Ladies Lounge and I know this thread isn't specifically about the topic of rape, sexual assault and sexual abuse in general, but about one specific case. I really wasn't going to comment at all on this particular thread, but the last few posts have just been so bizarre and the idea of anyone telling someone else to go educate themselves, when they clearly haven't done so themselves, I mean... really? I can't describe it in any other way.

    NI24 wrote: »
    What I can't understand about this case is why the judge would do what he did. This case was well-known and he knew many eyes would be on him, so you would think he would punish the criminal accordingly. Now people are asking for the judge to be recalled.


    The judge in this case handed down the sentence he did, specifically because he wasn't swayed by the fact that many eyes were on him, and he would have been giving in to mob justice if he had actually punished the criminal accordingly. The judges decision was informed by numerous factors, not the least of which was the probation officers report in which it was noted:

    Regarding sentencing, the victim stated, (I still feel a lot of anger because of what he put me through at trial. I want him to be sorry and express remorse. He attacked ny personal life in whatever way possible and in the end, it didn't work. I don't experience joy fron this, I don't feel like I won anythian It was jus- the anger of hearing what he said in court. It was devastating. I want him to know it hurt me, but I don't want his life to be over. I want him to he punished, but as a human, I just want him to get better. I don't want him to feel like his life is over and I don't want him to rot away in jail; he doesn't need to be behind bars."

    This officer was struck by the victim?s ability to objectively digest the gravity and ramifications of the defendant?s behavior and while she was understandably traumatized by the experience, her focus and concern was treatment, rather than incarceration.

    Perhaps, just as importantly, but sometimes overlooked, are the victim's wishes as to the potential outcome.

    NI24 wrote: »
    The guy's parents actually did him a disservice by pleading for a lighter sentence, all it did was bring more attention to the case. Now the criminal and his parents are despised. I wonder if the guy will actually live this down, whereas before he had at least a good chance of people forgetting his name.


    I don't think he will, not now that he's been identified in the media and given that he's on the sex offenders register for life. I don't agree with the leniency of the sentence, but I can understand the probation officers recommendations, and the judge's decision, and I think that if the prosecution had been successful in arguing for a longer sentence, it would more likely have resulted in a higher risk of Brock Turner coming out of prison more likely the wrong side of Elliot Rogers than any chance of him being reformed.


    .


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    Please try and cut your wall of text down.

    Let's see, what's the first thing that you said to me, ' What you said is pop psychology, your post is not helpful and constructive in any way. '

    If you can give that out, you should be able to take an 'educate yourself'.

    Or is it OK for you to demean other people, but you get very hurt when you hear anything back?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    @oneeyedjack If you think ' society in general has a full understanding of the damage rape does'

    Why do we have: multiple cases in Ireland where the perpetrator has been given a lenient sentence/gotten off completely.

    Why do we: live in a country that has the lowest conviction rate for rape in the E.U.

    Why do we have a case such as the Stanford Case, where the perpetrator was given 6 months in prison, whereas sentences for theft have been much higher, than this, which was for severe damage to a human.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 14,949 ✭✭✭✭IvyTheTerrible


    MOD Just a friendly reminder to keep it civil, and also that it's ok for people to disagree once they attack the post and not the poster.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,173 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    What's next after a case like this? Will it lead to change?

    I hope the woman's identity isn't hacked, or something.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    One eyed Jack, I see you've shied away from the point that Ireland had an appallingly low conviction for rape?

    And yet oh to you, society has a great understanding of the damage rape does!

    You like to cast assertion's on what other people do for a living, because if you say its untrue, oh it must be untrue, and, oh how you like to fling around the ' your ill informed opinion' to people here - to feel powerful yourself!

    The overwhelming majority of sexual offenders are male. This is a cut and dried fact. You not wanting it to be true doesn't make it not true.

    You say that I 'alluded' to a report in my post. I provided the name of the report and the date that it was carried out,. You did the same when quoting one. Laugh!

    In the report that I quoted, I gave the ratio of overall victims. 91% were found to be female and 9% were male. In your study, you did not provide the overall ratio of female to male victims in that analysis. Can you provide that please. Otherwise your opinion is ill informed, and your data is irrelevant.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    http://distractify.com/news/2016/06/15/a-little-bit-of-justice

    The judge involved has been taken off another rape case


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭sullivlo


    bluewolf wrote: »
    http://distractify.com/news/2016/06/15/a-little-bit-of-justice

    The judge involved has been taken off another rape case

    Rightly so, IMO. The more I hear of the American justice system the more infuriated I become.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,838 ✭✭✭midlandsmissus


    sullivlo wrote: »
    Rightly so, IMO. The more I hear of the American justice system the more infuriated I become.

    And while I agree with that Sullivlo, why don't we in Ireland protest about some of the horrendous sentencing for rape cases here? They are awful.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,994 Mod ✭✭✭✭sullivlo


    And while I agree with that Sullivlo, why don't we in Ireland protest about some of the horrendous sentencing for rape cases here? They are awful.

    Because this is a thread discussing the Stanford case.

    I'm happy to discuss the horrendous sentencing for rape in Ireland elsewhere though. Perhaps humanities may be suitable?


  • Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Unproven or unprosecuted allegation doesn't equal false allegation.


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,624 ✭✭✭✭meeeeh


    There is one very detailed study which compares 100 cases in 10 eu countries. Statistic that sticks out in Ireland is alcohol consumption which significantly higher than in other countries, only Scotland comes close. False reporting and victim withdrawal were not significant enough to explain the gap. I can't post PDF link but the title is Different systems, similar outcomes? Tracking attrition in reported rape...


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    We also have a legal process that is very unsympathetic towards victims of crime. It's protracted, not very empathic ( a lot of people in the legal system wouldn't have any training in dealing with victims ), it can be costly and intimidating. A lot of people don't even go to court or drop out because it's easier to do nothing than take a case. It's no surprise many rape victims find going to court as being akin to being raped again.

    I'd also.say the fact most women are raped by a current or former intimate partner makes it impossible to prove.


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  • Posts: 26,052 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    So, Brock Turner was released from jail on Friday, having served just three months. He'll spend the rest of his time at his parents.

    http://www.cnn.com/2016/09/02/us/brock-turner-release-jail/index.html
    After two days of deliberations in March, a jury found Turner guilty of three felony counts: assault with intent to commit rape of an intoxicated or unconscious person, penetration of an intoxicated person and penetration of an unconscious person.
    Deputy District Attorney Alaleh Kianerci said Turner should get a six-year sentence in state prison, arguing that he lacked remorse and that his victim was especially vulnerable in her unconscious state.

    Three months jail after conviction, after time served is accounted for. :(

    It just leaves me sad.


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    Im amazed that California etither does not allow prosecution appeals on the grounds of undue leniency, or alternatively that there is such an appeal but the district attorneys office doesnt believe that the decision was unduly lenient:

    http://www.mercurynews.com/crime-courts/ci_29993496/q-stanford-sex-case-sentence-will-da-appeal

    It seems to me that if people want to agitate about this case they should either protest to the DA directly or alternatively campaign to change californian law so that such a ground of appeal is permitted.

    In Ireland the DPP could and probably would appeal the decision.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 18,173 CMod ✭✭✭✭The Black Oil


    Dolbert wrote: »
    MOD
    Potential trigger warning in the victim impact statement. A marvellous piece of writing but may bring up some memories for anyone who has been a victim of trauma.
    - sullivlo

    ---
    Here's the victim impact statement. No words.

    https://www.buzzfeed.com/katiejmbaker/heres-the-powerful-letter-the-stanford-victim-read-to-her-ra

    The woman has come forward now. I hope she's doing OK in so as far as can be expected. She has a book coming out later this month. https://www.npr.org/2019/09/04/757626939/victim-of-brock-turner-sexual-assault-reveals-her-identity

    Her name is Chanel Miller.


  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 11,362 ✭✭✭✭Scarinae


    I still think it is crazy that Brock Turner only served three months in prison for this - he was caught in the act by two witnesses who chased him down, so it was undeniable that he did it!

    I hadn't heard before that the judge was recalled though - from the article:
    That decision, by Judge Aaron Persky, was met with outrage. Critics assailed Persky for being too lenient. Turner was a first-time offender, promising student and swimming champion. The judge said a tougher sentence "would have had a severe impact on him" — and he did not think Turner was a danger to others.

    Critics of the decision started gathering signatures for a recall campaign. In June 2018, the campaign succeeded. Persky was the first California judge to be recalled in more than 80 years.


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