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Is it time to be content with renting and not have notions of buying ?

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    #122
    Seanachai
    Registered Users Posts: 2,538 ✭✭✭Seanachai


    pwurple wrote: »
    There are services for carers in the home. It's more expensive, but what I'd go for if I get to that stage.

    Euthanasia I'd never agree with. One of my brothers would have persuaded my parents to take that route already if it was available... For their house.

    People in sound mind choosing euthanasia of their own accord is one thing, having somebody coercing people into it is not on. Things can get very tricky when it comes to inheritance and it's often driven by the wives or husbands of the siblings.


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    #123
    Grandpa Hassan
    Registered Users Posts: 1,945 ✭✭✭Grandpa Hassan


    handlemaster wrote: »
    http://www.irishtimes.com/business/personal-finance/are-you-too-old-for-a-mortgage-or-will-you-just-have-to-pay-up-faster-1.2182533


    interesting take on the new age profile of home buyers....

    This issue has a way to run. The uk regulator has just found against hsbc in a case where it would not grant a mortgage on the basis of someone's age. They were going to be past 70 if I recall, but had a decent pension and a good LTV. The regulator found that that was discriminatory and demanded that hsbc re-open the application.

    Which is obviously against their other rules about affordability testing, and something which the regulator is going to have to address. It was covered in the uk edition of the Sunday times.


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    #124
    Jellybaby1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,108 ✭✭✭Jellybaby1


    I just want to ask the pro-renters a question. When you finally retire, how do you plan to pay your rent out of the government pension and still pay for food and utility bills and a possible holiday, plus treats like nights out and any hobbies you might like to keep up? Its a serious question and one that made us buy our own home via mortgage. We never thought of what we would 'pass on to the kids', but we need a roof over our heads when we retire and hopefully we won't suddenly appear in the local nursing home when we reach 65 but could go on into our 80's and 90's like our older relatives, all of whom are still living in their own homes and looking after themselves without any rent or mortgage to pay. But they do have peace of mind.


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    #125
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    Jellybaby1 wrote: »
    I just want to ask the pro-renters a question. When you finally retire, how do you plan to pay your rent out of the government pension and still pay for food and utility bills and a possible holiday, plus treats like nights out and any hobbies you might like to keep up? Its a serious question and one that made us buy our own home via mortgage. We never thought of what we would 'pass on to the kids', but we need a roof over our heads when we retire and hopefully we won't suddenly appear in the local nursing home when we reach 65 but could go on into our 80's and 90's like our older relatives, all of whom are still living in their own homes and looking after themselves without any rent or mortgage to pay. But they do have peace of mind.

    I suspect the answer would be they will provide for themselves in another way and have the portability to move to a small place earlier than someone with a mortgage thus saving them money.

    A counter argument is also what happens when you're doddering around at 80 just about making ends meet and the roof falls in?

    I'm pro purchase myself but its a nuanced argument. It would be even less clear if we actually had a properly functioning market but we don't.


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    #126
    NewDirection
    Registered Users Posts: 223 ✭✭NewDirection


    Jellybaby1 wrote: »
    I just want to ask the pro-renters a question. When you finally retire, how do you plan to pay your rent out of the government pension and still pay for food and utility bills and a possible holiday, plus treats like nights out and any hobbies you might like to keep up? Its a serious question and one that made us buy our own home via mortgage. We never thought of what we would 'pass on to the kids', but we need a roof over our heads when we retire and hopefully we won't suddenly appear in the local nursing home when we reach 65 but could go on into our 80's and 90's like our older relatives, all of whom are still living in their own homes and looking after themselves without any rent or mortgage to pay. But they do have peace of mind.
    I think if you're doing any reasonable analysis on rent vs buy, you have to assume that the renter is providing for his future either by saving to buy at some point in the future, or loading their pension so as to cover rent into retirement.

    Assuming the renter rents until retirement, is like assuming the mortgage holder stays interest only until retirement. Saying that, the tone of the original article does suggest the writer is not thinking about the future at all.

    I view capital payments on the mortgage along the same lines as pension payments, with the added benefit of being able to reap the rewards of free accommodation as soon as I've paid of the capital, where as I've to wait for retirement to draw my pension.
    Like pensions, the longer you wait until you decide to plan for your accommodation future (either by buying a house / saving for a house / pension contributions) the harder it is to catch up.


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    #127
    hopgog
    Closed Accounts Posts: 167 ✭✭hopgog


    NewDirection wrote: »
    I think if you're doing any reasonable analysis on rent vs buy, you have to assume that the renter is providing for his future either by saving to buy at some point in the future, or loading their pension so as to cover rent into retirement.

    Problem with that is rent is usually the same or higher then mortgage payment, if you can save that amount while renting you could save it while paying the mortgage too and have the house asset when you retire


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    #128
    NewDirection
    Registered Users Posts: 223 ✭✭NewDirection


    hopgog wrote: »
    Problem with that is rent is usually the same or higher then mortgage payment, if you can save that amount while renting you could save it while paying the mortgage too and have the house asset when you retire
    What is the problem with that? The joy of doing analysis is that you don't care about the answer, just pump in the numbers and see what happens.

    There's more expenses with home ownership (insurance, LPT, upkeep ... etc).
    But yes, to expand on your point, if mortgage payments + home ownership expenses is less than rent prices for a similar house, it makes the analysis very easy (buy all the way).


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    #129
    The Spider
    Registered Users Posts: 1,273 ✭✭✭The Spider


    NewDirection wrote: »
    I think if you're doing any reasonable analysis on rent vs buy, you have to assume that the renter is providing for his future either by saving to buy at some point in the future, or loading their pension so as to cover rent into retirement.

    Assuming the renter rents until retirement, is like assuming the mortgage holder stays interest only until retirement. Saying that, the tone of the original article does suggest the writer is not thinking about the future at all.

    I view capital payments on the mortgage along the same lines as pension payments, with the added benefit of being able to reap the rewards of free accommodation as soon as I've paid of the capital, where as I've to wait for retirement to draw my pension.
    Like pensions, the longer you wait until you decide to plan for your accommodation future (either by buying a house / saving for a house / pension contributions) the harder it is to catch up.

    I have a funny feeling most renters aren't saving in this way, for most the saving 'gene' kicks in when they're in late twenties, early thirties, I accept that it's a massive over generalisation.

    Paying rent and saving can be a huge burden, people who opt for house shares, and we've all either experienced or read the horror stories, usually end up spending a lot more money just avoiding going home, whether that's out to dinner or a few pints etc, it all adds up. Five pints in Dublin is roughly about 26 euro, do that midweek every week and you're a hundred euro down, before you even get to the weekend.

    A night out in Dublin on a Friday after work is not going to leave much change out of a hundred euro. Cinema once a month another 20, dinner twice a month another 150,

    just paying the mortgage and putting spare money aside is going to leave you in a much better position no matter what way you cut it. You probably won't go out as much because you're not avoiding housemates in a shared place etc. If you're in a relationship it's also easier, if you live alone then you have to spend money to leave the house.

    And let's not even get on to the point that rents are going to rise in the long term, or holidays etc, so that's a lot of income down the tubes, just by not buying.

    People living at home while working have the advantage here, although they also have their freedom seriously curtailed at an age when they should be learning to be a grown up.

    People not from Dublin but are in Dublin for work are at a serious disadvantage here, and have no choice in the above really.

    Tricky situation but renting long term is not a solution, epsecially if you're a proffessional, somehow I don't think the kind of areas available as social housing are going to appeal.


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    #130
    chris85
    Registered Users Posts: 4,502 ✭✭✭chris85


    I dont like the idea of renting long term in Ireland as not enough protection/security is there for the renter to protect them long term. Other countries it can work better where there are longer leases going on over a decade and rental market is supplied with decent quality living spaces which are priced respectably.

    Dublin is out of control. Rent prices are huge with a low supply at moment. Of the houses/apartments out there there is a lot of bad places to get through before you get somewhere nice. if you find somewhere nice everyone wants it and price is unaffordable and if you go for this doesnt leave a lot to be able to save.


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    #131
    Thargor
    Registered Users Posts: 17,865 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    Im renting but I have a farm that Ill inherit someday with my parents house on it, granted its in the middle of nowhere but I suppose I could sell it if I really wanted my own place, that will be a painful day though. Im saving a fortune renting an attic room at the minute anyway in a place where all the bills are included and I walk to work. Got nearly 100k saved in 5 years. Downsides being zero social life since leaving college, never go travelling or holidays and I despise my dead end job and cant even get an interview for anything related to my qualifications but at least I have options when I get out of here.


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    #132
    riclad
    Registered Users Posts: 8,184 ✭✭✭riclad


    If you are working full time, and have 100k saved ,you should be able to get a loan,to buy a small house,or 1bed apartment,
    lets say you save another 50k,
    in that time house,apartment prices could have gone up by 80k.
    EG price rise s are faster than most people can save.
    SO my advice is buy some property NOW ,
    somewhere in dublin.
    AT Least when you have a mortgage you can budget,
    say i,ll spend x amount per month going out.
    Buy a 2bed unit if you can afford it and can find one going for a reasonable price.
    for most people apart from saving a deposit ,
    Saving over a certain amount can be futile ,as
    dublin prices could increase faster than the rate you can save .


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    #133
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,278 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    riclad wrote: »
    dublin prices could increase faster than the rate you can save .

    Riclad- you do know that Dublin prices are now falling in many areas- and in some areas you can't sell property at any cost......? While I see where you're going with your advice- you're making a lot of assumptions that quite simply don't hold water.


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    #134
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    The_Conductor wrote: »
    Riclad- you do know that Dublin prices are now falling in many areas- and in some areas you can't sell property at any cost......? While I see where you're going with your advice- you're making a lot of assumptions that quite simply don't hold water.

    Not to mention this particular assumption (prices can only go up faster than your saving rate) is the exact one that brought us to the mortgage/property crisis we are experiencing and are unable to solve.

    Prices can go both ways and no one can make a clear case for them going one way or the other in the next few years.


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    #135
    Thargor
    Registered Users Posts: 17,865 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    I just wish there was something decent to do with my savings, shares cant be trusted at the minute and there is literally nowhere to put them. I have to park them in Prize Bonds but so many people are doing that that nobody wins anything anymore, its infuriating.

    Im only 30, I dont want all my future options tied up in some little sh1tbox anyway especially when prices could go either direction. Hate my job anyway as I said so I probably wont stick it out much longer. Not to derail the thread but would love some advice if anyone has any!


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    #136
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Thargor wrote: »
    I just wish there was something decent to do with my savings, shares cant be trusted at the minute and there is literally nowhere to put them. I have to park them in Prize Bonds but so many people are doing that that nobody wins anything anymore, its infuriating.

    Im only 30, I dont want all my future options tied up in some little sh1tbox anyway especially when prices could go either direction. Hate my job anyway as I said so I probably wont stick it out much longer. Not to derail the thread but would love some advice if anyone has any!

    Do I get it from your previous post that you might be moving to another city/country in the near future? (seems like you are not too keen on your current job and don't have a family or super active social life holding you at your current location)

    Think about how likely this is to happen before you buy ...

    And if you decide to buy even though you think you might be moving somewhere else, maybe look at apartments in desirable enough locations where you know renting/selling should not be too difficult even when the market is not doing great.

    Just my 2 cents and others might have better advice ...


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    #137
    Barely Hedged
    Closed Accounts Posts: 992 ✭✭✭Barely Hedged


    Thargor wrote: »
    I just wish there was something decent to do with my savings, shares cant be trusted at the minute and there is literally nowhere to put them.

    When was there a time when shares could be trusted? Sounds like you need to get over the risk aversion tone of your post not that its shares are the issue.
    Thargor wrote: »
    Im only 30, I dont want all my future options tied up in some little sh1tbox anyway especially when prices could go either direction. Hate my job anyway as I said so I probably wont stick it out much longer. Not to derail the thread but would love some advice if anyone has any!

    Not to sound too dramatic but 30 is a time you should be thinking of your future and how you see the next 10 years pan out. If you have no plans for the next few years, an apartment close to a city centre is a good bet. If you think an area is up and coming near the city, a 2 bed mid terrace that might need fixing up or is in a move in state could be good. They will always rent out easily if you choose to move on and the yields are good (Dublin id be talking about).

    Prices could go in either direction but what caused them to spiral downwards last time - a huge economic recession bordering on depression. If you cant see that happening, and i ts not the case for Ireland anymore, your money will be safe in the options mentioned above.


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    #138
    Thargor
    Registered Users Posts: 17,865 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    What will 100k get you though? Nothing. So Ill still be within 15-20% of the same mortgage people with no savings have to go for and then work for the next 40 years to pay it off, I would be very claustrophobic in that situation. I dont know what to do tbh, be miserable with savings in cash or be miserable with savings tied up in an apartment in this country seem to be the choices.

    I say shares cant be trusted because quantitative easing has inflated the markets and when that comes to an end there will be a downturn.


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    #139
    Barely Hedged
    Closed Accounts Posts: 992 ✭✭✭Barely Hedged


    Thargor wrote: »
    What will 100k get you though? Nothing. So Ill still be within 15-20% of the same mortgage people with no savings have to go for and then work for the next 40 years to pay it off, I would be very claustrophobic in that situation. I dont know what to do tbh, be miserable with savings in cash or be miserable with savings tied up in an apartment in this country seem to be the choices.

    I say shares cant be trusted because quantitative easing has inflated the markets and when that comes to an end there will be a downturn.

    Youve got 100k in savings or you can only get 100k of a mortgage?

    Depends on what your time horizon is for investing in shares. There'll be some correction at some stage in the future but who is saying you cant also ride the pigs back until then?

    Ever since the Fed QE in 2011 people have been talking about massive corrections and predicting it in the next few months. If you dont like an individual share or cant pick one why not buy an index?

    Following from your second post "I would be very claustrophobic in that situation." i cant help but point out your risk aversion. Therell be a risk anywhere you put your money. A stabilising Irish property market is a good bet


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    #140
    Thargor
    Registered Users Posts: 17,865 ✭✭✭✭Thargor


    100k in savings, never looked into a mortgage in my life. I suppose I should be in an index for the sake of protection against inflation but I dont have a clue what to go for or where to look, euro value has gone to sh1t now anyway.


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    #141
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Thargor wrote: »
    What will 100k get you though? Nothing. So Ill still be within 15-20% of the same mortgage people with no savings have to go for and then work for the next 40 years to pay it off, I would be very claustrophobic in that situation. I dont know what to do tbh, be miserable with savings in cash or be miserable with savings tied up in an apartment in this country seem to be the choices.

    I say shares cant be trusted because quantitative easing has inflated the markets and when that comes to an end there will be a downturn.

    Your seem to be a bit too pessimistic ... which is good as it got you to save a very decent deposit, but bad because it is preventing you from making any commitment.

    If you managed to save 100k in 5 years, depending on your salary you could quite possibly borrow an additional 150-200k to buy a decent enough place and repay the mortgage in 10 years or less (you will have some extra maintenance/tax costs, but your rent will be gone so you will be able to direct at least as much to the mortgage as what your are currently saving - possibly more). Better than 40 years :-) And while prices could drop, I don't see how you could go into negative equity so you won't be completely stuck, especially if the place is in an area where you can rent it shall you want to move somewhere else.

    Really you would be in a very different position from the crazy people who bough at the top of the boom with 100% mortgages and are now stuck with unsustainable mortgages and negative equity.


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    #142
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,393 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Milly33 wrote: »
    Do you actually really own it in the end.. Like what happens when you can pay the rest of the mortgage or you die and your family member cant take over the payments... Before granted fine but there are too many rules and regulations about what you can and cannot do in this day and age.

    I don't get why people are in such a rush to buy, fine it is great to be able to do what you want with a place but also you take on a lot more than that.. Think it is ruining young people today
    Everyone has different needs and requirements at different stages of their lives.
    The environment simply isnt there to rent in this country if you want some level of stability be it due to kids or otherwise.
    Not everyone is rushing to buy but people of a certain age and demographic would generally prefer to buy over rent as things currently stand.


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    #143
    Barely Hedged
    Closed Accounts Posts: 992 ✭✭✭Barely Hedged


    Thargor wrote: »
    100k in savings, never looked into a mortgage in my life. I suppose I should be in an index for the sake of protection against inflation but I dont have a clue what to go for or where to look, euro value has gone to sh1t now anyway.

    You really need to undertake a serious assessment of your plans if you've never looked at even a mortgage and you think they last for 40 years.

    You could also invest in a property fund.

    Talk to a stock broking company about indices, funds and shares.

    From the information you posted so far, youre very badly informed and lacking basic information. Apologies if it sounds harsh


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    #144
    worded
    Registered Users Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭worded


    It suits the land lord class to keep things stacked against the renter. No other asset class gets such market interference.

    I heard for the last is it 300 years investment return on property has been consistently 6% on average.

    Its good to think you are "saving" every month versus renting. I know there are advantages to renting, but buying in ireland can be a positive thing if its a good investment at the right price.

    The landlords sh1t furniture that he refuses to store so you have an option of putting it in buy and sell for 0 in the hope of getting the same off someone else on exit. The 150 euro bargain town beds. Oh my good god, why not rent unfurnished? Do the estate agents love "furnishing" the property for a fee to LL and buy absolute muck and bill for quality furn? What a selfish thing to do to people.

    What a horrible situation it is to be renting furnished in ireland in the vast amount of places.


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    #145
    charlietheminxx
    Registered Users Posts: 2,579 ✭✭✭charlietheminxx


    My boyfriend and I are looking for somewhere to rent together at the moment, and rent in the areas we are looking at are more expensive than a mortgage would be for a larger property in the same area. We aren't in a position to buy yet, but we are saving and when we have a good deposit we'll be kissing renting goodbye for the following reasons:

    - Rent in Dublin is insanely expensive.
    - Renting sadly does not mean your landlord will take care of maintenance issues like they would if they were living there.
    - No long term security, rents can rise dramatically on an annual basis and force you out of the area.
    - No say so in how you decorate your home.
    - We would have nowhere to live upon retirement because rents far exceed what would be feasible on our pensions (even though we both started private pensions in the last couple of years and we are still in our twenties).

    Negative equity only affects you if you buy a property you don't want to live in, and when we buy it'll be somewhere we can see ourselves in for the long term. I don't see a mortgage as a burden, a responsibility yes but a privilege too. It would be great if there were more starter homes being built but hopefully that'll happen over the next 5 years.


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    #146
    worded
    Registered Users Posts: 4,533 ✭✭✭worded


    charlietheminxx wrote: »
    My boyfriend and I are looking for somewhere to rent together at the moment, and rent in the areas we are looking at are more expensive than a mortgage would be for a larger property in the same area. We aren't in a position to buy yet, but we are saving and when we have a good deposit we'll be kissing renting goodbye for the following reasons:

    - Rent in Dublin is insanely expensive.
    - Renting sadly does not mean your landlord will take care of maintenance issues like they would if they were living there.
    - No long term security, rents can rise dramatically on an annual basis and force you out of the area.
    - No say so in how you decorate your home.
    - We would have nowhere to live upon retirement because rents far exceed what would be feasible on our pensions (even though we both started private pensions in the last couple of years and we are still in our twenties).

    Negative equity only affects you if you buy a property you don't want to live in, and when we buy it'll be somewhere we can see ourselves in for the long term. I don't see a mortgage as a burden, a responsibility yes but a privilege too. It would be great if there were more starter homes being built but hopefully that'll happen over the next 5 years.

    There is something wrong where a working couple like yourselves can't get on the ladder. The rent trap :-(

    If repossession of defaulters happened to increase supply and normalise prices that would help you but there isn't any appetite for this in post famine ireland.

    Renters don't protest and are not listened to by political elite who themselves are landlords.

    I was in the same situation as you not so long ago.

    My advice - work like dogs, save like Germans, take cheap holidays and hopefully you can get a place.

    Closer to a sale could your folks throw you a few 1000?

    Get a credit union account in case you ever need to borrow a few bob on the QT

    Best of luck


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    #147
    charlietheminxx
    Registered Users Posts: 2,579 ✭✭✭charlietheminxx


    Thanks so much for the advice Worded. I have a credit union account and we've just opened a joint savings account. We are building up a relationship with as many banks as possible, we hope if will help when we are looking to buy - personal bank accounts with Aib, joint account with Permanent TSB, joint savings with Rabo Direct.

    We are not in a hurry and we'll figure it out! I don't know if either of our families will be in a position to help out but we are a while away from that yet. I'll deffo take your advice on board. Thanks again!


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    #148
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Seanachai wrote: »
    If you are healthy and you have money then it's not so much of a problem, being elderly, sick and broke would not be a great place to be at. The ideal situation would be to develop better community care for elderly people at home, there's no way in hell either of my parents would go into a home no matter how comfortable they are, they've told me this already. If.

    So who's going to care for them when they can't do it themselves anymore? Or are they going to commit suicide? Lots of older people including my own parents have this unrealistic attitude. They don't want to move until forced to by circumstances.


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    #149
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    professore wrote: »
    So who's going to care for them when they can't do it themselves anymore? Or are they going to commit suicide? Lots of older people including my own parents have this unrealistic attitude. They don't want to move until forced to by circumstances.

    There does seem to be an unrealistic expectation the otherway in some cases as well though. My Granny was in an assisted living place in her late 70's, however my father is still bombing around his two allotments at 74. My wifes Grandmother was living on a farm in Kerry until she was 93.

    I frequently deal with people who make out the father/mother/in-law has gone gaga and can no longer deal with their own affairs. When I look at the account they're invariably in their late 60s/early 70s and when I do speak to them they're fully capable of speaking for themselves.

    I think it's just a case of swearing/pretending you can't hear and inappropriate comments, all part of the fun of getting old that you're let away with it.

    That said some people do need proper care, I don't disagree with you there. However it's not 100% of people and one could argue a renter would be mobile enough to get a larger house/house with a flat and have granny move in. As I say I'm fully for purchasing, renting only works where one make it make financial sense. I don't really see how that's possible in Ireland, but then look at the average executor sale to see the sad state some must have been living in.

    Sorry that rather meandered on and off the point.


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    #150
    The_Conductor
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 32,278 Mod ✭✭✭✭The_Conductor


    charlietheminxx wrote: »
    Thanks so much for the advice Worded. I have a credit union account and we've just opened a joint savings account. We are building up a relationship with as many banks as possible, we hope if will help when we are looking to buy - personal bank accounts with Aib, joint account with Permanent TSB, joint savings with Rabo Direct.

    We are not in a hurry and we'll figure it out! I don't know if either of our families will be in a position to help out but we are a while away from that yet. I'll deffo take your advice on board. Thanks again!

    Whats the story with splitting your various financial accounts around a plethora of different banks/agencies? It makes it difficult for any one of the organisations to have a clear picture of your finances. Its a mess- and many risk assessment officers would in fact view someone who has accounts all over the place like this- as suspicious. Don't assume it will help you........


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    #151
    MarkAnthony
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,934 ✭✭✭MarkAnthony


    Keep it simple. Build up a good picture with one bank, others will be more than happy to try and poach you as KBC did with us. The wife and I had banked with AIB for 15 years. The lending criteria is the lending criteria no matter how long you've been with a bank.


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