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Transfer of Athletes...

2»

Comments

  • #32
    thirtyfoot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭thirtyfoot


    DangerMouse27 wrote: »
    This has been sparking some excellent debate and items which i for one will raise at our next agm.

    The Super Club concept i think would excite the national track and field league in unimaginable ways.
    Clubs could actually use their county championships as a staging post for selection.I ran the 110mh and 400mh at the National League Final,along with two others,we were shockingly bad! as per usual,i was covering for another athlete in an event which was not my forte at all.County trials would make this easier.

    Maybe an increase in the scope of the National League might help as well...possibly a 5km road race which would allow the distance running clubs(smaller ones with no track) to garner points for Athletics Laois or Athletics Longford or wherever.

    Yes, the National League could be a great competition. It has been neglected by both the AAI and many clubs though. It may be changing. The introduction of the counties has added extra spice and more competition with Meath's men the best example. Kerry will have a mens and womens in Premier this year with ambitious plans for the future. Thats what we need. Clubs and counties getting ambitious, pushing the boat out. It'll create competition. Motivate clubs and counties to get their best athletes out, recruit new athletes, fill their shortfalls with new coaches. Competition is what its all about.

    Dangermouse - what would you think of a more regional based League? Say have a national premier league of the top 8 clubs and then regional league feeding into that - say Dublin, North, Midland, West, South. Local league (less travelling) with winners progressing to play-off to gain entry to Premier. Make it an honour to be at Premier, 8 dedicated clubs, there by right. Then your club could also be chasing the Midlands title as well as promotion.


  • #33
    ChickenTikka
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 239 ✭✭ChickenTikka


    I don't like the concept of super clubs at juvenile level. To get large participation rates from a community, most training has to be done locally. If your best/elite juveniles have joined a superclub 20 miles away, it doesn't encourage the rest of the club athletes or coaches too much ... develop your athlete to a decent standard and then when they are u14 they're gone to a perceived better club and a perceived better coach and noone for other local athletes to look up to anymore.

    I know that a higher standard of coaching is required and if its not available in your own club, getting it somewhere else is very desirable and necessary. But maybe the concept of county clubs would work as the super club and the county have their 'super squad' who meet on a regular basis where the facilities exist.

    Also, we cannot just magic up the coaches in the location of the superclub. A good coach living in the a***hole of nowhere might not want to travel twice a week to the chosen superclub. Many juvenile coaches are already extremely overburdened just doing 6 or 7 hours a week coaching in their own club and travelling only 5 mins up the road to training, and probably balancing it with rearing their own kids at the same time. In my experience, most juvenile coaches start coaching in their local club because its local! And would prefer to spend an extra 2 hours coaching there rather than travelling an hour over and back to a superclub. We have to remember all of these coaches are volunteers. No money paid and in many (all?) cases, no expenses paid.

    In my opinion, one of the reasons that hurling and football are so successful is that they are organised on a parochial basis and get the full support of their community because of this. We should learn from that. Would an elite West Waterford athlete get any pleasure or support from their community if representing Ferrybank? (Not picking on those 2 clubs - just that they've been mentioned in other posts already on this thread).

    The county squad and county competition is the way to go for our elite juveniles, with progression to the same for seniors.


  • #34
    helpisontheway
    Closed Accounts Posts: 396 ✭✭helpisontheway


    One thing everyone in Ireland must admit regardless of what sport they take part in is that the GAA is overall a very successfully run organisation[I hate saying it:o].The best players go on to represent their County while the average palyers are left to enjoy their local club scene.We need to adopt some format of this idea especially at a juvenile level as dragging large amounts of kids all over the country for competitions is ridiculous!!!

    In the present format very few clubs outside Dublin have decent long term viable senior T+F teams;there a few exceptions as already mentioned Ferrybank,Leevale,etc.Dublin clubs will always have a huge advantage at senior level due to the amount of athletes that move there due to college or work from different parts of the country and then transfer to a club there and this will always be the case.[We all know the best athletes really come from Munster:D and then move to Dublin ha Tingle]

    County Senior teams are the way to go in most counties.Maybe a grading system for clubs like they have in the UK could be introduced and clubs who reach a high enough long term standard can be excluded and stand alone as a superclub against the county teams.
    Wouldnt it be great for the smaller clubs in Dublin to be able to come together to form a Dublin team competing against Clonliffe,Cru,Raheny etc.

    As for coaching i really couldnt name one coach that i know of a high standard who would not travel to coach talented athletes.If the structure is in place the coaches necessary will fall in IMO.

    As Tingle said already 99% of talented track&field athletes train on the track already so its really only a matter of coordinating the whole thing with coaches.

    In Kerry we entered a Kerry senior mens and womens team in the national league last year.It was done so that the talented group of juveniles we had could see where they should be heading[competing at senior level].The benefit of it can be seen already with clubs who were always at loggerheads now working together,athletes training with athletes from other clubs and further iniatives beginning in relation to coaching,training and competitions.
    The whole idea allows the athletes to compete with their clubs and county keeping practically everybody happy;athletes,coaches,parents,club officials and county officials!


  • #35
    thirtyfoot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭thirtyfoot


    ChickenTikka wrote: »
    I don't like the concept of super clubs at juvenile level. To get large participation rates from a community, most training has to be done locally. If your best/elite juveniles have joined a superclub 20 miles away, it doesn't encourage the rest of the club athletes or coaches too much ... develop your athlete to a decent standard and then when they are u14 they're gone to a perceived better club and a perceived better coach and noone for other local athletes to look up to anymore.

    I know that a higher standard of coaching is required and if its not available in your own club, getting it somewhere else is very desirable and necessary. But maybe the concept of county clubs would work as the super club and the county have their 'super squad' who meet on a regular basis where the facilities exist.

    Also, we cannot just magic up the coaches in the location of the superclub. A good coach living in the a***hole of nowhere might not want to travel twice a week to the chosen superclub. Many juvenile coaches are already extremely overburdened just doing 6 or 7 hours a week coaching in their own club and travelling only 5 mins up the road to training, and probably balancing it with rearing their own kids at the same time. In my experience, most juvenile coaches start coaching in their local club because its local! And would prefer to spend an extra 2 hours coaching there rather than travelling an hour over and back to a superclub. We have to remember all of these coaches are volunteers. No money paid and in many (all?) cases, no expenses paid.

    In my opinion, one of the reasons that hurling and football are so successful is that they are organised on a parochial basis and get the full support of their community because of this. We should learn from that. Would an elite West Waterford athlete get any pleasure or support from their community if representing Ferrybank? (Not picking on those 2 clubs - just that they've been mentioned in other posts already on this thread).

    The county squad and county competition is the way to go for our elite juveniles, with progression to the same for seniors.

    Yes, good points and shows some holes in the argument at juvenile level. I'd be thinking of this for more at senior/junior level. So same number of juvenile clubs and a much smaller number of senior clubs. Magic upping coaches at senior clubs would be done through licensing laws if you want. To be a super club you need a Dir of Athletics at Level 2 or higher (probably higher overtime). Work with changig the coaching structure. Have a bridging level between level 2 and 3 were coaches can really specialize earlier. I go on a course I don't want to know how to race walk or pole vault. A club would need a level 2.5? in each area - sprints, jumps etc. The idea is that you are naturally creating centres of excellence in clubs. Forcing the clubs to have proper coaching structures, putting the onus on them, the ambitious ones will create centres and the ambitious athletes will go here. They can lose their status if not adhered to. Pie in the sky I know but who knows.


  • #36
    Kiptanui
    Closed Accounts Posts: 134 ✭✭Kiptanui


    Tingle wrote: »
    Yes, good points and shows some holes in the argument at juvenile level. I'd be thinking of this for more at senior/junior level. So same number of juvenile clubs and a much smaller number of senior clubs. Magic upping coaches at senior clubs would be done through licensing laws if you want. To be a super club you need a Dir of Athletics at Level 2 or higher (probably higher overtime). Work with changig the coaching structure. Have a bridging level between level 2 and 3 were coaches can really specialize earlier. I go on a course I don't want to know how to race walk or pole vault. A club would need a level 2.5? in each area - sprints, jumps etc. The idea is that you are naturally creating centres of excellence in clubs. Forcing the clubs to have proper coaching structures, putting the onus on them, the ambitious ones will create centres and the ambitious athletes will go here. They can lose their status if not adhered to. Pie in the sky I know but who knows.

    The only reason this is pie in the sky is because it is unworkable. For some events there is a chronic shortage of coaching talent. Who would coach a pole vaulter in Roscommon or a race walker in Longford? Even with your proposed system, where would they go?

    We are talking about level 3 courses and a new level being introduced but how many coaches are ready for this course? It is lovely to speak about merging pools of talant to train together but there are practical barriers. It is only workable at senior level and lets be realistic, most of our international class athletes base themselves elsewhere. (Mary Cullen is not home based by the way, that is a temporary arrangement!!)

    The system you speak about is progressive in theory but it reality it is a poachers paradise. At junior level that would be regressive. I know plenty about the 'incentives' to change clubs but don't want to come on here swinging the hurley. I have no problem with athletes transfering to a more suitable club but a merry go round is not a desireable situation. If the move is initiated by the athlete then fair enough but poachers don't develop athletics, they attempt to lure the top layer and court success this way. Comparisons with the GAA are invalid as they have the numbers to implement systems and approaches that are unworkable in minority sports.


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  • #37
    cickimc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 102 ✭✭cickimc


    Even if there isn't enough coaches for the ahtletes especially in technical events there still is a lot to gain from two racewalkers or pole vaulters training together once or twice a week not much clubs are blessed with a coach specializing in everything

    If a super club has a few very technical coaches for sprints and field events and a few for runnning then they will progress. Rural counties like Mayo would be a lot stronger if they had a super club as most are leaving athletics coming into junior.


  • #38
    thirtyfoot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭thirtyfoot


    Kiptanui wrote: »
    The only reason this is pie in the sky is because it is unworkable. For some events there is a chronic shortage of coaching talent. Who would coach a pole vaulter in Roscommon or a race walker in Longford? Even with your proposed system, where would they go?

    .

    To their nearest Super Club for a session once a week or twice a month. Currently there is nothing. At least this would mean if these people wanted a group or coach to train with, there would be somewhere to go. helpisontheway said if coaches are asked to travel, they will. Athletes are the same.
    Kiptanui wrote: »
    We are talking about level 3 courses and a new level being introduced but how many coaches are ready for this course? It is lovely to speak about merging pools of talant to train together but there are practical barriers. It is only workable at senior level and lets be realistic, most of our international class athletes base themselves elsewhere. (Mary Cullen is not home based by the way, that is a temporary arrangement!!)

    .

    Exactly. This is not a 1 year project. Its something to be worked with. Say within 3 years super club status will be launched. Clubs or county who wihs to avail must have their coaching expertise up to date by that time. Also, I'm not talking about elite international athletes, I'm talking about the 200-300 senior club athletes who take their sport seriously but spend much time faffing, training alone, trying a bit of this, bit of that, eventually just drifting away as they have no coach or no group to train with.
    Kiptanui wrote: »

    The system you speak about is progressive in theory but it reality it is a poachers paradise. At junior level that would be regressive. I know plenty about the 'incentives' to change clubs but don't want to come on here swinging the hurley. I have no problem with athletes transfering to a more suitable club but a merry go round is not a desireable situation. If the move is initiated by the athlete then fair enough but poachers don't develop athletics, they attempt to lure the top layer and court success this way. Comparisons with the GAA are invalid as they have the numbers to implement systems and approaches that are unworkable in minority sports.

    Thing is, feeder clubs and super clubs will do much to rid the sport of poaching at underage as the connection will be there. Put rules in place, you can't move from a feeder to super club while a juvenile, I don't know, could work. There is very little poaching at senior and those that do will do at their own will. I'd be of the opinion (at senior and junior) that if poaching means the best athletes train together with the best coaches, then bring it on.

    This whole poaching thing at senior is blown out of proportion and if a club are bitter over an athlete moving to a better setup then they have their priorities in the wrong place. I've left a smaller club to move to bigger club, got their blessing and as a result still have connections there and will always take an interest in it. Thats sport to me, not taking it personal or being bitter.
    cickimc wrote: »
    Even if there isn't enough coaches for the ahtletes especially in technical events there still is a lot to gain from two racewalkers or pole vaulters training together once or twice a week not much clubs are blessed with a coach specializing in everything

    If a super club has a few very technical coaches for sprints and field events and a few for runnning then they will progress. Rural counties like Mayo would be a lot stronger if they had a super club as most are leaving athletics coming into junior.

    Yes, very true. Even as a start if it means athletes will train together then thats a bonus. Interesting on the vaulters, in Dublin anyway they all train together by and large. Athletes grouping together and training is a minimum. How many club walkers do we have, not many. Same as hurdlers or high jumpers. Getting them to train together would help greatly.

    We've had a great session this evening in the freezing cold, best of the winter yet. We had 8 athletes from 4 different clubs. All of similar standards (400m guys ranging from 48-51secs) pushing and helping each other, all bringing something to the party. The difference to training in a group like this is massive. It is the only way forward. Our current structures don't facilitate this and it usually happens by accident. There are other groups like this all over the country but not enough as it usually happens by accident. Drifting off topic here but the drop-off will happen many times when kids go to college and leave their club environment. Some network to let these kids know what training groups are available would be a great help.

    All I'm trying to do is think of ideas on how to change a competition, club and coaching structure that just isn't working. I'm hearing some support for the idea or parts of it but also negativity. To those who believe this can't work, whats their thoughts on what can work or is change required at all? Maybe the changing the name of super club might help, might seem slighly offensive!! If that thought of super clubs and a few elite is the problem, thats not the goal. The goal is to get the best athletes and coaches together, clubs or county is the best vehicle for that or is there another. It won't erode the club ethos at grassroots.

    Anyway, good debate!


  • #39
    Condo131
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭Condo131


    Tingle wrote: »
    ........ the arsehole of nowhere .....
    Pray, how do YOU define 'the arsehole of nowhere' - might it be somewhere without one of your 'superclubs'?
    Tingle wrote: »
    How will we get kids aged 14 in the arsehole of nowhere being able to hurdle off both legs or develop a good leg shoot in the long jump or master the rotation in the SP
    Isn't that what the county and regional coaching and development days do already?
    Tingle wrote: »
    Some places are staring to do this, Kerry County Board for example.
    ..and some other places have been doing it for some time
    Tingle wrote: »
    ... when was the last time a decent club team came out of Cork in a cross perspective. Long time. Cross there must be dying, track isn't thanks to Leevale. For me, it validates the super club concept.
    As I said previously, I don't want to turn this into a Cork v tingle issue. What about all the other counties? We have the appaling situation of several counties having only one or two small clubs. Superclubs aren't on the horizon for them - they wouldn't even be able to field a team in the leagues if their lives depended on it. Cross isn't dying in Cork, far from it, however it is a long time since Cork featured in XC nationally. There are several reasons for that, one of which is the annual haemmorage of talent to the US scholarship system [That's another can of worms - we can discuss that one another day on another thread] wrt Leevale, I don't want to go there. The idea of the rest of us becoming feeder clubs for Leevale just isn't on and will NOT happen - EVER (repeat ad nauseum)
    Tingle wrote: »
    Much better to have a coach in a small club meeting with other better coaches in their master club once a week and learning on the job
    That happens already in the county and regional coaching and development days

    Tingle wrote: »
    May I ask, as an example, what coverage of coaching expertise is in your own club?
    One level 3 coach, two level 2, one level 1 and 8 foundation.
    Tingle wrote: »
    Put a proper feeder system in place and the skullduggery you speak of will disappear as there will be no need for it.
    Now that's definitely being unrealistic - no further comment necessary!
    Tingle wrote: »
    We can speak all day about this. Parochial and club politics will probably mean it'll never happen.
    Absolutely agreed, without reservation. However you didn't mention the entire parochial and club way that the AAI operates at throughout. Personally, I have drawn back primarily to Club involvement - I feel I can do more for athletics in general by progressing my own Club to the best of my ability. [In short, our club nearly went out of existence 9 years ago - down to about 15 active members - we're now at approx. 120 active and growing fast. It's only now that we're starting to reach 'critical mass'. We don't (yet) compete in the leagues (and I can't see it in the foreseeable future) but we have had some success at national level. We try. Development is a slow process. If we were now to become just a feeder club, I would definitely give up organisational athletics - and not because I want to hold on to power - been there in another code, got the tee-shirt, don't want to go back!]

    In an ideal world what you propose might work. Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world. Superclubs come and go in all sports. The same would happen in this case, but the demise would be slow, due to the feeder system. There are many athletic clubs in Ireland that would have, in the past, been classed as superclubs that are now just a shadow of their former selves.

    You discount West Waterford as a superclub, yet they have one of the biggest organistaion and memberships going in this country. As I said it often takes a long lead time before efforts like that bear fruit. The thought of WW, an their like, just becoming a feeder club is mind numbing.

    My main objections to the superclub feeder are two fold:
    I've seen local 'superclubs' (relatively speaking) form before. They do well in the short term, but often lack focus and, once the key athletes move on/retire, you're left with a single small club, where before you had maybe 4, 5 or 6 clubs.
    The second reason is that, during the amalgamation, many admin people and coaches are 'surplus' and just drift away.

    wrt superclubs, I can see the same happening, but on a grander scale. It would also be a major disincentive to small and fledgling clubs.


  • #40
    thirtyfoot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭thirtyfoot


    Condo131 wrote: »
    Pray, how do YOU define 'the arsehole of nowhere' - might it be somewhere without one of your 'superclubs'?


    Isn't that what the county and regional coaching and development days do already?


    ..and some other places have been doing it for some time


    As I said previously, I don't want to turn this into a Cork v tingle issue. What about all the other counties? We have the appaling situation of several counties having only one or two small clubs. Superclubs aren't on the horizon for them - they wouldn't even be able to field a team in the leagues if their lives depended on it. Cross isn't dying in Cork, far from it, however it is a long time since Cork featured in XC nationally. There are several reasons for that, one of which is the annual haemmorage of talent to the US scholarship system [That's another can of worms - we can discuss that one another day on another thread] wrt Leevale, I don't want to go there. The idea of the rest of us becoming feeder clubs for Leevale just isn't on and will NOT happen - EVER (repeat ad nauseum)


    That happens already in the county and regional coaching and development days



    One level 3 coach, two level 2, one level 1 and 8 foundation.


    Now that's definitely being unrealistic - no further comment necessary!


    Absolutely agreed, without reservation. However you didn't mention the entire parochial and club way that the AAI operates at throughout. Personally, I have drawn back primarily to Club involvement - I feel I can do more for athletics in general by progressing my own Club to the best of my ability. [In short, our club nearly went out of existence 9 years ago - down to about 15 active members - we're now at approx. 120 active and growing fast. It's only now that we're starting to reach 'critical mass'. We don't (yet) compete in the leagues (and I can't see it in the foreseeable future) but we have had some success at national level. We try. Development is a slow process. If we were now to become just a feeder club, I would definitely give up organisational athletics - and not because I want to hold on to power - been there in another code, got the tee-shirt, don't want to go back!]

    In an ideal world what you propose might work. Unfortunately we don't live in an ideal world. Superclubs come and go in all sports. The same would happen in this case, but the demise would be slow, due to the feeder system. There are many athletic clubs in Ireland that would have, in the past, been classed as superclubs that are now just a shadow of their former selves.

    You discount West Waterford as a superclub, yet they have one of the biggest organistaion and memberships going in this country. As I said it often takes a long lead time before efforts like that bear fruit. The thought of WW, an their like, just becoming a feeder club is mind numbing.

    My main objections to the superclub feeder are two fold:
    I've seen local 'superclubs' (relatively speaking) form before. They do well in the short term, but often lack focus and, once the key athletes move on/retire, you're left with a single small club, where before you had maybe 4, 5 or 6 clubs.
    The second reason is that, during the amalgamation, many admin people and coaches are 'surplus' and just drift away.

    wrt superclubs, I can see the same happening, but on a grander scale. It would also be a major disincentive to small and fledgling clubs.

    I think we can agree to disagree. What do you think can be done to improve the T&F situation (or do yopu think its ok)? Do you think we have structures to create world class athletes. The world class athletes we have don't think we do and those that are world class either did so through their own initiative or had good (super!) clubs when they were younger.

    On the some topics you raised - arsehole of nowhere is somewhere without a track or proper facilities for T&F. Came from arsehole of nowhere myself, know all about it, trained for my first 10 years on a GAA pitch. Arsehole of nowhere is actually a nice place and toughens you up.

    Regional squads - are good to certain degree and the RDOs are doing a great job and it can be a thankless task. Coaches don't come with the kids though. Estimate it to be maybe 5-10 club athletes for every club coach who attends. Kids aged 14 won't bring back what they learned to their club. If their coach did they might though. They don't seem to come along though, pity.

    What about the Junior and Senior athletes though? What do they do? Where are their squad sessions? 15 year old attends regional squads, trains with other athletes in their club. They are good, hit 18 or 19, their mates leave and give up as they aren't as good. No junior or senior athletes in club to their standard. No coach to bring them to the next level as they are working with the younger kids and no good facilities. Where do you suggest this kid goes to train? This is the nub of my motication for trying to look at alternatives. This specific example. Give me an answer on where this kid who is 18 or 19 can go to progress their career and I might be able to understand where you are coming from.

    US scholarships - Cork is not the only county who lose athletes to US. Its everywhere. Not an excuse for Cork not challenging at club cross in either women or men for years. I look at it in the cold light of day from the outside and its dead in Cork. The only place with a vibrant senior club cross scene is Dublin. I remember a day when the Cork county championships was the 2nd hardest cross race to win after National ( or so the Cork Examiner used to say). Sadly no more. Not a slag on Cork, just reality. Look at recent Senior Inter-Club results. DSD, Raheny, Rathfarnham, Clonliffe. Would be great if they were more competitive, as competition is key to performance. Just to clarify, I'm not anti-Cork. People who know me will know my connections;). JBM is one of my all-time sporting heroes.

    WW - no slight on them is intended. They have been around a while though. I raced WW guys in the last century, they aren't a new club. Look forward to seeing WW athletes to the forefront of T&F in years to come based on the what you are saying. Will be good for Waterford T&F, Munster T&F and Irish T&F.

    I suppose finally this
    Condo131 wrote: »
    wrt Leevale, I don't want to go there. The idea of the rest of us becoming feeder clubs for Leevale just isn't on and will NOT happen - EVER (repeat ad nauseum)

    is the most telling of all and the reason my glorious plan will never happen. Would you allow your athletes to compete at senior for Leevale in track comps if a Primary/Secondary UK style system was in place or is it an anti-Leevale thing? BTW, I think Leevale are great and a model for any aspiring club who wants to produce senior national class athletes and then if they have the ingredients, world class athletes.


  • #41
    Condo131
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭Condo131


    Tingle wrote: »
    I think we can agree to disagree.
    Agreed.......Maybe!! :D:D:D
    Tingle wrote: »
    What do you think can be done to improve the T&F situation (or do you think its ok)?
    Of course it's OK. T&F is just one aspect of athletics, but it's the main Olympic area for athletics. The gob****es in this country (i.e. the majority (who really don't know sport)) seem to believe a) if we (as in Ireland) don't bring back at least several Olympic Golds, we've failed b) that Golds in the Europeans and worlds really don't count c) Indoors (as in World/Europeans) is even further down the pecking order d) That there should be a public enquiry if the T&F team fails to bring home at least one medal from the Olympics and finally e) If it's not an Olympic Gold, then the Ballygobackward team winning the County Junior Z final trumps all. So T&F is the Gold standard. ...but it's not for everyone.

    Wrt improvement, unfortunately it's a slow process. You want to 'jump start' it. On paper that might work in the short term, but I don't think so in the medium to long term. We need more certified coaches - lots of them! It wasn't until recently that we started to run coaching courses again. As you indicated, it takes time for coaches to learn how to coach properly.
    Tingle wrote: »
    Do you think we have structures to create world class athletes.
    We clearly don't. I also don't like the overall structure of the AAI. I think it stifles more than nurtures.
    Tingle wrote: »
    This specific example. Give me an answer on where this kid who is 18 or 19 can go to progress their career and I might be able to understand where you are coming from.
    Sorry (and not intending to nit pick) but that's a general example. Most 18 to 19 year olds are probably going to college and a lot of colleges now have reasonably good systems in place. Even if not, they are going to have access to other clubs facilities & sessions. (For example, we have track members in my club - members of other clubs who pay a smaller sub and can join in our sessions and squads)
    Tingle wrote: »
    US scholarships
    Of course its not just a Cork problem, but I wonder if other regions suffer to the same extent. Not insignificant numbers go to the U.S. each year. The vast majority do not return. I don't begrude any of them, but I do begrudge the system that cultivates them here for export. It does little to benefit the sport in Ireland. Most of them are just 'fodder' for the U.S. system. A couple of years ago, I overheard a conversation between a leading runner and one of the coaches in his club:
    Coach "Welcome back Mike (not his real name).....I suppose you'll be doing all the road races?"
    Mike: " No, I need a rest. We've been doing two races a week all year, one home and one away. The away one could be 1500 miles away."

    Well Mike is one of those who did return. Unfortunately he hasn't been performing to the level he had been prior to going abroad. I know it's just one example, but I reckon it's not unusual. I reckon the U.S. scholarship system doesn't, with few exceptions, serve Irish athletics well.
    Tingle wrote: »
    ....is the most telling of all and the reason my glorious plan will never happen. Would you allow your athletes to compete at senior for Leevale in track comps if a Primary/Secondary UK style system was in place
    We've never stopped anyone from doing what they wanted to do and we're not going to start now (even if we don't exactly like it)..... and, as far as I can remember (but open to correction), we have allowed members to guest for Leevale.
    Tingle wrote: »
    or is it an anti-Leevale thing?
    What?? Never!!:rolleyes:


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  • #42
    thirtyfoot
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,912 ✭✭✭thirtyfoot


    Condo131 wrote: »
    Sorry (and not intending to nit pick) but that's a general example. Most 18 to 19 year olds are probably going to college and a lot of colleges now have reasonably good systems in place.

    Well, its a very specific example and for those with an interest in improving both the standard of the top athletes and the depth of the events at senior T&F, its where we are losing so many athletes. The fall off from Jun to U23 is huge.

    Reasonably good systems in colleges. Is that good enough? Are we not giving the younger athletes then only a reasonably good chance of fulfilling their potential or having a reasonable good chance of winning medals. Is that not the problem with everything here though. Half-arsed, sure twill do, afraid to try something different. If it fails, how bad at least we tried.

    DCU is the top college in the country yet their system can be haphazard. They give the best athletes good support financially etc and it works well for some but if the athlete doesn't have their own coach they can easily drift. And this is the top college. Whats it like in Carlow. Or Maynooth or Galway. Don't tell me the college/uni system is meeting the needs of the young athletes. Thats crazy talk that is.

    You believe that the AAI structures aren't great. I am saying the same and the way to do it is give the responsibility to the good clubs to create the centres of excellence. The success stories are where the clubs, county boards and athletes take ownership. Its going to happen and happens anyway. I've got an insight into how some people would feel about giving more responsibility to the more ambitious clubs so a formal structure may never work because of this as the goals of many are not the same goals as I would want to see from athletics. It may just come back to survivial of the fittest and the big clubs keep driving on and being ambitious and putting systems in place to attract(poach) the top athletes. We'll still have posters like dangermouse coming on with concerns about athletes moving to clubs with apparent better coaches and systems. With a feeder/super club system, at least it would be transparent.

    I think I've exhausted my thoughts on this one......off to check the 2009 rankings to see who we can poach for next year.


  • #43
    Condo131
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,442 ✭✭✭Condo131


    Believe it or not, I think we're singing from the same hymnn book...definitely not the same hymnn though.
    Tingle wrote: »
    It may just come back to survivial of the fittest and the big clubs keep driving on and being ambitious and putting systems in place to attract(poach) the top athletes.

    I have absolutely no problem whatsoever with that.

    Poaching is a different matter. If one club attracts an athlete from another, by purely virtue of better suiting his/her needs, then I have no problem with that and I don't call that poaching.

    What I call poaching is where one club actively courts an athlete who is active with another club, sometimes (indeed often) offering financial inducements (however small).

    My club, even though growing at a very fast rate, has NEVER knowingly approached an athlete who is still active with another club. We've even suggested to prospective members that another particular club may suit them, for reasons of their particular discipline, or geographic/travel reasons.

    In my experience, some superclubs don't 'give a fiddlers' about anyone who is less than top class. (If we ever meet, I'll tell you some of the stories...but not here). I would absolutely hate a feeder system in that situation, where athletes who do not make the superclubs standards are, at best, tolerated, and treated as second-class citizens within the club - expected to pay the sub and quietly drift away. That certainly does little for the sport in general. I hope that, in general, superclubs are nothing like that, however considering the poaching stories, I think there's a fair bit of it around.
    Tingle wrote: »
    I think I've exhausted my thoughts on this one......
    Me too.


  • #44
    Kiptanui
    Closed Accounts Posts: 134 ✭✭Kiptanui


    Tingle wrote: »

    I think I've exhausted my thoughts on this one......off to check the 2009 rankings to see who we can poach for next year.


    That wouldn't be your style - you would rather check the flight schedule from the rift valley or ukraine or even check who's new in third level colleges in Dublin. Thats a more tried and tested pasture for you to recruit from!!!! :D


  • #45
    DangerMouse27
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 699 ✭✭✭DangerMouse27


    Didnt UkAthletics try something different this year and it went down really well..the Super 8?
    One athlete in each event per county? but with only eight lanes per track,the rorund one and round two could be a battling ground to formulate the top 8 counties and have them slog it out in the final.Only stipulation is what county you were born in...maybe?

    It might overly highlight the need for certain clubs to start expanding their coaching when they have no representatives at a final day.
    Yes i hear you say that bigger catchment areas might win..ie Dublin,Cork but only one athlete in Cork can compete in the 100m or 200m.The Super 8 selectors in each county selecting the top athletes based on merit and times.


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