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18-10-2011, 14:26   #16
 
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Sibes need less food than most other breeds, they are very, very efficient eaters, so in fact, if they are overfed, they won't digest it, and will lose weight. So you may actually be overfeeding.

Madra is really not good, if your dog is getting plenty of exercise, I would recommend a food that is at least 24% protein. Mine get raw food mostly, but also get Chudleys Working Crunch which is 28% protein. If you live anywhere near a greyhound track, go along on a race night, Chudleys will probably be on sale there, its fairly cheap, I pay £14 for a 15kg bag in Jollyes in Enniskillen, but chicken meat meal is the first ingredient and a lot of working sibes in the UK are fed on it. If you can't find Chudleys, then one of the Red Mills greyhound foods will do, I'd suggest the tracker for the rotties and the racer for the sibe. I used to feed it, but noticed a couple of my dogs getting red paws, so have switched to Chudleys when I'm feeding kibble.

Just thought, on the not eating thing, one of my sibes won't eat for days at a time, but he's fit and healthy, again its down to their efficient digestive system. Vince didn't eat at all on Friday or Saturday, but still managed to run 2.5 miles on Saturday night in harness, and another 4 miles on Sunday. He did eat after his run on Sunday.

Last edited by ISDW; 18-10-2011 at 14:34.
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18-10-2011, 14:34   #17
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As you are saying tho if I can get a good dog food he might take to it with gravy and gradual change over.
Exactly. The thing about Madra is that it's like McDonalds food, it's always going to taste better than the likes of Royal Canine but won't have half of the nutrients. So gradually get his taste buds used to something else by using a gravy or meat as a bridge and then drop it away.

There's also www.dogfooddirect.ie for delivered dog food, they have a whole range of food
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18-10-2011, 15:41   #18
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Sibes need less food than most other breeds, they are very, very efficient eaters, so in fact, if they are overfed, they won't digest it, and will lose weight. So you may actually be overfeeding.

Madra is really not good, if your dog is getting plenty of exercise, I would recommend a food that is at least 24% protein. Mine get raw food mostly, but also get Chudleys Working Crunch which is 28% protein. If you live anywhere near a greyhound track, go along on a race night, Chudleys will probably be on sale there, its fairly cheap, I pay £14 for a 15kg bag in Jollyes in Enniskillen, but chicken meat meal is the first ingredient and a lot of working sibes in the UK are fed on it. If you can't find Chudleys, then one of the Red Mills greyhound foods will do, I'd suggest the tracker for the rotties and the racer for the sibe. I used to feed it, but noticed a couple of my dogs getting red paws, so have switched to Chudleys when I'm feeding kibble.

Just thought, on the not eating thing, one of my sibes won't eat for days at a time, but he's fit and healthy, again its down to their efficient digestive system. Vince didn't eat at all on Friday or Saturday, but still managed to run 2.5 miles on Saturday night in harness, and another 4 miles on Sunday. He did eat after his run on Sunday.
Great help thank you, I think chudleys is only available certain places and doesn't deliver, just been on their site and I don't live anywhere near a dog track. I have found Red Mills tho from the link twomanydogs put up. Just one thought should I be buying this if it's a case my dogs mite get red paw? Also in your opinion would the huskie notice anything different between the raver and the tracker? He is so head strong on the fact he wants to eat what the rotties are eating hence why he wouldn't take to royal cannon.
So what raw meats do you give your dogs?
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18-10-2011, 15:42   #19
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Exactly. The thing about Madra is that it's like McDonalds food, it's always going to taste better than the likes of Royal Canine but won't have half of the nutrients. So gradually get his taste buds used to something else by using a gravy or meat as a bridge and then drop it away.

There's also www.dogfooddirect.ie for delivered dog food, they have a whole range of food
Very well put, thank you for the enlightenment. Also the link is great thank you again.
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18-10-2011, 16:17   #20
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Hi

I have a 10mth male husky and im now feeding him Select Gold Junior Sensitive (about 200g twice daily) with some Real Nature Wet food mixed in (a large spoon full only).
He went completely off his food a month and half ago and would not eat at all for well over a week. I got really worried as he looked really skinny. One of the people working in Maxizoo told me to mix in some wet food and now hes thriving on it. He has more energy and looks amazing now. Also up to a 6.5 mile cycle a day with him and he wants to keep going (i cant just yet )
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18-10-2011, 17:09   #21
 
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The reason I suggested the Tracker for the rotties is that it is 18% protein I think, whereas the Racer is higher, it may be too much for the rotties, and the 18% probably wouldn't be enough for the sibe. It wasn't all of my dogs that started getting red paws, just a couple, so I thought they might have been having a reaction to the grain or cereal in the food. However I know a good few sibe owners that feed it with no problems at all.

A good food that delivers is Best for my Dog,if you google it, you will find the Irish site, they deliver very quickly. It may seem expensive, but again, you feed less of it, so it works out quite well and would be suitable for all of your dogs.

Like a lot of people, I have had to cut back on things, so my local butcher gives me off cuts, and the dogs are thriving on them, its mainly beef and lamb, with some chicken. Again, sibes do well on fatty foods, so the off cuts are perfect for them, and they get a good bit of bone as well to gnaw on. I'm still trying to get the amounts right though, as some of mine have put a bit of weight on, because you really don't need to feed them very much, I see whats in their bowl and feel sorry for them, so give them a bit more They absolutely love it though, I give dry food every few days, as its easier to take with us when we go away, so I don't want it to be a shock to them to go back on it for a weekend, but Diesel wouldn't eat it this morning, he obviously thinks he should have been having meat.
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18-10-2011, 20:44   #22
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The reason I suggested the Tracker for the rotties is that it is 18% protein I think, whereas the Racer is higher, it may be too much for the rotties, and the 18% probably wouldn't be enough for the sibe. It wasn't all of my dogs that started getting red paws, just a couple, so I thought they might have been having a reaction to the grain or cereal in the food. However I know a good few sibe owners that feed it with no problems at all.

A good food that delivers is Best for my Dog,if you google it, you will find the Irish site, they deliver very quickly. It may seem expensive, but again, you feed less of it, so it works out quite well and would be suitable for all of your dogs.

Like a lot of people, I have had to cut back on things, so my local butcher gives me off cuts, and the dogs are thriving on them, its mainly beef and lamb, with some chicken. Again, sibes do well on fatty foods, so the off cuts are perfect for them, and they get a good bit of bone as well to gnaw on. I'm still trying to get the amounts right though, as some of mine have put a bit of weight on, because you really don't need to feed them very much, I see whats in their bowl and feel sorry for them, so give them a bit more They absolutely love it though, I give dry food every few days, as its easier to take with us when we go away, so I don't want it to be a shock to them to go back on it for a weekend, but Diesel wouldn't eat it this morning, he obviously thinks he should have been having meat.
Great post, insighting thank you. Good idea about the butchers too! I got to the makers of chudely and they have pointed me in the right direction to purchasing their food, so hopefully crudely for Ochii and red mill for Tyson & Hooch. Just on Red Mills, I don't see tracker name on their brands, only leader adult, leader adult large, leader adult sensitive and leader energy.... which one is tracker?
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18-10-2011, 21:24   #23
 
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Great post, insighting thank you. Good idea about the butchers too! I got to the makers of chudely and they have pointed me in the right direction to purchasing their food, so hopefully crudely for Ochii and red mill for Tyson & Hooch. Just on Red Mills, I don't see tracker name on their brands, only leader adult, leader adult large, leader adult sensitive and leader energy.... which one is tracker?
The Tracker is part of their greyhound range, reduced VAT, so works out slightly cheaper. If you've got hold of Chudleys though, maybe see if they do a resting greyhound food for the rotties, just because its called greyhound food doesn't mean its just for greyhounds, its because of the reduced VAT that they call it that. In the UK, working dog food is VAT free, which is why a lot of food is called working, or greyhound, but is suitable for pets, as long as the protein levels aren't too high.
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18-10-2011, 22:43   #24
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he should be in the 50 -60 lb range. have you had him weighed. tuna in sunflower oil is great for mixing into any dry food to make it more tasty just one of the small cans and mix it rite tru
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20-10-2011, 21:29   #25
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Hi there....
I am nowhere NEAR as knowledgable as ISDW and the likes on these matters but the boyfriend was having a similar problem with his newest pup... She is a tall skinny GSD pup who he was worried about, took her for a vets check up and to be weighed, changed foods a couple times, fed raw etc. He researched and found a recipe for Satan Balls which is meant to put weight on any dog, some sticky mess though... Check it out here...
http://www.dogforum.net/dog-frequent...fat-balls.html

Since then she has lost a couple of puppy teeth which I reckon were her main reasons for not eating as much as he had wanted her to...
We have since changed my husky and the two German Shepherds from Arden Grange (plus a full cooked chicken brought home from work every night ) which was expensive but full of nutrients to Vet Essentials large breed puppy as the little one took a liking to that, (and it was a little cheaper too.) I find that when mixed with a really tasty canned food they rarely say no though!
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07-12-2011, 11:59   #26
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Red paws and the incorrect assumption that Rotties need less protein

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Originally Posted by ISDW View Post
The reason I suggested the Tracker for the rotties is that it is 18% protein I think, whereas the Racer is higher, it may be too much for the rotties, and the 18% probably wouldn't be enough for the sibe. It wasn't all of my dogs that started getting red paws, just a couple, so I thought they might have been having a reaction to the grain or cereal in the food. However I know a good few sibe owners that feed it with no problems at all

In case any readers are confused on the whole itchy red paw thing I have posted on the issue for a westie owner and thought it might help here

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showp...6&postcount=63

While grain (gluten) is certainly up there as the leading cause there are a lot of misconceptions regarding the issue.

Hope it helps.


Further, ISDW, why do you think Rotties need less protein than other breeds? Assuming they're all carnivores (and so a diet of largely fresh animal protein (<70%) and some fat and bone, I would like to venture that this information is very misled and should be disregarded by Rottie owners.

An exact protein level is completely refuted by the literature today. Sometimes by changing the food to a "lower protein level" and having success leads to some wrongly assuming it was the lower protein level that sorted the problem. For more on this very popular, but very mistaken belief, please read any of my previous posts on protein levels in dogs or check out my website (in construction) where the editors note at the bottom explains the issue.

Bottom line is, as you reduce the protein in large breeds such as Rotties, and increase unnecssary carbohydarte to levels of 60% and above, these dogs will suffer lean muscle mass loss (requires adequate supply of high quality protein), joint damage (requires adequate supply of high quality protein), obesity (excess carbs are stored as fat), pancreatic issues including diabetes and pancreatitis (the dogs pancreas, unused to dealing with carbohydrates will be forced to produce i) enough amylase to break down the carbohydrate load as this enzyme is absent in the saliva of the dog, because it's a carnivore and ii) produce enough insulin to balance the soaring blood sugar levels. As the pancreas strains it will eventually shut down, leading to pancreatitis. Dogs are 25 times more likely to suffer pancreatitis than humans (references available on previous posts). Diabetes is up x4 in last 20 years.

Bottom line regarding protein is, how much did you eat yesterday? Last week? Did your kids have? This focus on protein (in a carnivore that processes it far better than we do) is completely unfounded, and as it is not stored by the body and it is harmlessly rid in the urine, completely irrelevant. Dogs with 75-90% kidney reduction are proven to actually do better on high protein diets (see previous posts).

Rotties need a very high protein, low carbohydrate diet from 4wks old until the day they die, forming the best joints, maintaining form, coat and vitality.

Last edited by DogsFirst; 07-12-2011 at 12:04.
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07-12-2011, 12:26   #27
 
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In case any readers are confused on the whole itchy red paw thing I have posted on the issue for a westie owner and thought it might help here

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showp...6&postcount=63

While grain (gluten) is certainly up there as the leading cause there are a lot of misconceptions regarding the issue.

Hope it helps.


Further, ISDW, why do you think Rotties need less protein than other breeds? Assuming they're all carnivores (and so a diet of largely fresh animal protein (<70%) and some fat and bone, I would like to venture that this information is very misled and should be disregarded by Rottie owners.
We were discussing greyhound food, for working dogs. Tracker is for resting dogs, so therefore the protein level is lower. I'm guessing most rottie owners in this country don't work their dogs.

I won't carry on with this discussion with you as I find your posts really patronising, you are obviously the expert and everybody else knows nothing, which is also why I didn't reply to your pm.
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07-12-2011, 12:30   #28
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Hi there.... boyfriend was having a similar problem with his newest pup... She is a tall skinny GSD pup who he was worried about, took her for a vets check up and to be weighed, changed foods a couple times, fed raw etc. He researched and found a recipe for Satan Balls which is meant to put weight on any dog, some sticky mess though...
Your GSD (a breed with a notoriously delicate gut lining) is suffering from a food allergy. You need to cut gluten, cooked protein and chemical additives from her diet. You may notice her poo is a little runny now and again, sometimes with a mucous on it, perhaps even blood. She will become thin, her coat will dry ad crispen up, she will be off her food, her feet might get itchy and sore.

The advice of moving to high fat to "fatten up" the dog is wrong, even if it is from a vet and appears to be working. Putting on fat is not what's needed, it is putting on lean muscle mass, which is done with fresh protein.
Furthermore the excess fat must be removed by the dogs system which requires added vitamin E and C. Vit E mops up fat radicles (when excess fat enters the blood these need to be mopped up or they cause a lot of issues). As vitamins are included "at a minimum required for growth" in dry food (AAFCO 1995) you are increasing the fat content without increasing the good stuff. Advising to increase the fat content of your diet by such a degree in absence of, in the very least, additional vitamins, is not advised by any nutritionist worth their salt but is a common practice in humans none the less (see boards posts on "how to gain weight". Then compare this info to Google "how to put on weight" which will lead you to gainingweight.co.uk has some nuggets in there, or any site that looks half reputable.

It is not fat you need on your bones, it is lean muscle mass. And lean muscle is built with good quality protein.

But your girl isn't absorbing what she needs form her food, likely due to malabsorbtion, like due to gluten. At any rate you need to cut out cereal containing gluten (wheat, barley, rye), cooked protein and chemicals (which is pretty much all dry food) which are causing the allergy (not sure which, could be any, GSD's gut lining is very sensitive) and instead look to be including fresh meats (70%) such as raw chicken or mince and maybe some cooked veggies (20%) for the vitamin boost and some raw meaty bones. These are plenty high in fat but more importantly high quality protein. Once the anitgens are removed and the good proteins go in your dog will recover. If you continue on the way you are her joints will form poorly and her allergies and weight loss will continue.

I see she's getting cooked chicken, which is a good step but unless you tackle the malabsorbtion it will pass through and your dog won't gain from it. If you're concerned about raw food etc check out our previous posts and discussions which should clear up most of your concerns, or first read our on our new (and apologies, under construction) website.

And she needs the chicken bones! Just not the cooked ones.

While her immune system is down make sure she is getting plenty of vitamin C which is at dangerously low levels normally in processed food. Manufacturers state it is not a requirement of dogs as they can make their own. Which is true, in part. They can, but very poorly. Dogs working, in stress, in pain or simply ill need boosts of vitamin C that will not be found in dry food. Strongly recommend this. Human tablets fine, give her a third of what you take, avoid effervescent, stick in a saussie as dogs don't like the citrus taste.

Best of luck.

Last edited by Hellrazer; 07-12-2011 at 17:56.
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07-12-2011, 13:11   #29
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We were discussing greyhound food, for working dogs. Tracker is for resting dogs, so therefore the protein level is lower. I'm guessing most rottie owners in this country don't work their dogs.

I won't carry on with this discussion with you as I find your posts really patronising, you are obviously the expert and everybody else knows nothing, which is also why I didn't reply to your pm.


I'm very sorry if you find me patronising ISDW, I always try to moderate my tone. Unfortunately the only people to feel patronised so far have been yourself and vets, hopefully others find the information useful.

I really feel this is a problem unique to the doggy realm. Dog breeders, trainers, vets, all of us, can't seem to be told anything. It's a major problem and one of the reasons why dog food is the way it is. I remember I was running a stand for guide dogs once when a famous lab breeder came up us (an organisation who has been training dogs 9-5, for the last 60 years) and told us that we were damn fools for using dogs as well as bitches "when everyone knows the dogs are only good for one thing". We couldn't argue as she was not going to listen so my boss thanked her. I wouldn't have and would of argued the point. I am not sure who would be more right.

You are feeling patronised because as you pointed out, I am very knowledgable in this profession, I lecture on the matter and there are relatively few better poised to do so. The difference between your argument and mine is that mine is based on facts and figures. Without this stuff you feel threatened. I don't understand that mentality. I mean if I'm wiring my house with a remedial training in electricity and an electrician comes along and tells me I'm doing it wrong, I'd appreciate the professional direction. A lot of doggy professionals would just tell that electrician to hop it!

The best dog trainers learn every day. The worst ones know it all and won't budge. We saw it with the use of treats, clicker, a good relationship instead of a good slap, whatever. All adamantly opposed for so long. And to this day. I'm not sure that would happen in any other profession.

I love the new info this forum provides and previous posts reveal this where people have great ideas and new facts. But

Sorry again ISDW. Ironically I might've sounded less patronising to you if I was a vet who, without further personal and extensive research, would be far less capable of arguing the point, than I am.

If you have a look at my conversations with Wibbs who obviously knows his stuff, from the offset we to'd and fro'd from but it never got patronising or offensive, we were just bouncing ideas off eachother and arguing points. I made and conceded points, as did he. I don't think at any point Wibbs was threatened, just eager.

But thanks for your comments, I will take more time in addressing the tone of my emails in future. However I will continue to correct your quotes where they are wrong as too many people will be affected. I honestly only mean it in the spirit the forum was created.

So.........

Quote:
Originally Posted by ISDW View Post
Tracker is for resting dogs, so therefore the protein level is lower.

Lowering the protein content of the food for a resting dog is incorrect. Assuming you are trying to provide a lower energy food for the resting dog, you are lowering the one ingredient that is not stored by the body, which is protein, and in turn are increasing the carbohydrate and / or fat content, which are both stored as fat.

Take human athletes as the obvious example here. Before the big race they eat high carb meals for that required energy boost. Afterwards, like race car drivers, jockeys, models, weight lifters, anyone that watches their weight, they focus on protein. Protein builds muscle, maintains the body, but doesn't affect the bodies fat.

It may be that you are increasing indigestible bulking fibre (which is itself a carbohydrate) and this will give you the lower energy food you are looking for. However fibre is not only completely unnecessary in the dogs diet, it bulks up and waters down the dogs faeces. Food is encouraged to shoot through the dogs already rapid system, so the dog gets even less from his diet. Without adequate protein and now malabsorbtion from the fibre (and likely gluten laden meal) the dog's body will canabalise it's own protein from it's muscles and organs to maintain itself, resulting in muscle wastage.

Greyhound breeders who work so hard at putting lean muscle mass on their dogs need to maintain these dogs on high quality protein diets while at rest, maintaining lean muscle mass, and put the carbs / fat in pre race, like humans, and very other animal model out there.

Bar some rare examples of serious illness, there is never a need to maintain a dog on a low protein diet unless that need is cost and convenience.


Sorry ISDW, I will try to avoid you in the future.
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07-12-2011, 14:57   #30
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If you have a look at my conversations with Wibbs who obviously knows his stuff
Jayzuz I wish! It just seems to me that the dog world compared to the human world is a step or two behind when it comes to advice and scarily so when it comes to actual professional advice that people rely on. Yet the scientific research is there, much of it extensive and repeated. I've been able to find it on free to view pubmed type stuff online. I gather there's even more behind pay per view/professional sites.

This research contradicts many of the "givens" we're being generally told on matters like food, the unequivocal yearly vaccinations, neutering to name the more obvious ones(Yearly vaccines are insisted upon if you need to get your pet insured). It used to be similar with out of date training methods that folks here would rightly call as bogus(dominance and all that guff). Methods that I'm quite sure would have been "givens" and defended vigorously if this site was active 20 years ago. Hell it's still defended vigorously in other places since Cesar Milan et al have made it TV friendly even though based on bogus theories and out of date science.

Most of all the question I'd ask re food and it's an obvious one... Why would an animal evolved to be an apex predator do well on a largely grain based diet? Why would protein, about the biggest thing they would eat in the wild be reduced to such a degree in commercial foods. It makes zero sense to me. We do well on such diets(well it depends...) but we've evolved as serious omnivores. It's one of the major items in our evolutionary bag of tricks. Look at how many human foods we can eat no bother, yet are poisonous to our dogs. Tomatoes in quantity are really good for us, help protect against heart disease and cancer, yet can kill a dog stone dead(ditto for grapes). Now unless domesticated dogs have co evolved with us in the last 10,000 years(possibly?) it would make sense to copy their "original" diet to some degree. No?
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