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29-08-2010, 18:43   #16
Grizzly 45
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Originally Posted by tac foley View Post
Don't over look -
High Standard Victor - especially if your second handgun is the Colt M1911 - the grip has the same angle.

tac
Grew up learning to shoot one of those and an old BSA Scorpion air pistol as a kid.
Reason I'm very partial to the 1911 design,that and having big paws.

Quote:
At least with the Walther GSP, it's still being made (albeit in slightly different clothes) and so relatively easy to get parts and you'll always find at least a half dozen in Frankonia from €250 to €300 up.

Actually they have seven at the moment, ranging in price from €239 to €715
Not to mind there is a handy conversion for 32ACP and a carbine kit in both .22 and 32ACP. Only problem is being a left hooker,It would cost me proably as much as the gun to get a LH custom grip made for it??
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30-08-2010, 04:00   #17
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Originally Posted by Manic Moran View Post
It's a training kit. Firstly, were I a copper reviewing this for an application, I'd consider it as a 9mm. It's very easy to change the components to fire the centrefire round. As a result, all the practical bits such as the trigger are going to feel pretty much like the 9mm version: They use the same parts.

The good news is that the P226 is a heck of a good pistol in 9mm, so the .22 will work nicely as a cheap way to practice shooting it in centrefire. But that's all it's designed to do. You might be better to check out the SIG Mosquito.

NTM


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Originally Posted by rrpc View Post
Neither the P226 or the Mosquito are on the dreaded list, so applying for one will only give you grief when there are perfectly good .22 pistols that are on the list and far better than the Mosquito (at least). I've never seen the P226 in .22lr here, so you'd be adding the problem of getting something (and possibly paying in advance for) that you may never get a licence for.

You'll find the list in the commissioner's guidelines in the important threads sticky at the top of the forum.

Edit: apparently you won't find it because the 'following threads' post is there at the moment

Here's a link to it. You can also find it on the Garda website under firearms licensing.
Had a look at the mosquito but it's gotten alot of bad press so didnt give it much thought after that. The p226 in 9mm is an excellent pistol, it's what I have been trained on and use in work (a copper as Manic Moran put it ), being familiar with it is one of the main reasons I want to get one in .22lr for myself.

Thanks for the replies lads. I'll make a few enquiries in work and let you know how I get on. Just thought I would pose the question here first and see what the general feedback was.

Last edited by bravestar; 30-08-2010 at 04:02. Reason: Typo
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30-08-2010, 17:58   #18
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I have fired the P226 in .22lr - here in Ireland - before the epoch of 2008

I know of a number of people who have them. They may not be on "the list" but that is not a big deal - most firearms are not on "the list".

Thereis nothing wrong with them.
They are a very accurate firearm in any calibre but in 22lr they are equally accurate.
Some people will find the grip quite large but people of the large pawed persuasion will like it.
Obviously there is very little felt recoil.
It is also far easier to buy proper competition holsters for a frame like the 226 than it is for some of the smaller framed 22 varieties or indeed the 'big ass timber handled' ones.

I have yet to encounter one in a National Competition but I am sure, when I do, they will be quite good and as usual it will be more about the competitor than it will be about the firearm as to how well they do.

If I had the $$$ I'm sure I'd be interested in one myself but afraid I don't (have the $$$ .......... yet)

B'Man
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30-08-2010, 18:20   #19
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Thereis nothing wrong with them.
They are a very accurate firearm in any calibre but in 22lr they are equally accurate.
They're very accurate for a given value of accurate though B'man. In their native caliber, they're the cream of the crop (or so I hear), but in 22lr, they're up against some fairly advanced designs which are the product of decades of competitive testing, and it's just not a fair comparison to take a P226 and put it up against a Walther SSP. It's like taking the best offroad rally car around and putting it on the formula one circuit.

And while there's nothing wrong with them, if you're going to do target shooting, you're going to enjoy it more with a better firearm, and for most competitions, better == more accurate. (Not all competitions, it's true - but I'll put an SSP up against any other 22lr pistol in the hands of the same shooter any day of the week).

(and there's nothing wrong with the pistols on the list either).

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I am sure, when I do, they will be quite good and as usual it will be more about the competitor than it will be about the firearm as to how well they do.
Personally, I only think that applies when the firearms are comparable - comparing an SSP to a GSP to an IZH35 might be a comparison where the shooter is what counts; but compare (say) a P22 to a GSP and the shooter no longer matters at all.

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If I had the $$$ I'm sure I'd be interested in one myself but afraid I don't (have the $$$ .......... yet)
That's the other thing - if you can get a more accurate dedicated 22lr pistol for less than the price of getting a P226 and the conversion kit and the welding of one into another; and without all the hassle of getting it licenced; well, it seems suboptimal to not get the dedicated 22lr pistol.
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31-08-2010, 04:42   #20
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Only advantage I can think of is that if the situation ever changes with respect to centrefire calibres, moving to 9mm becomes a matter of buying just a $150 barrel and a couple of magazines, really. Plus training costs are still cheap.

You are correct that it's not a target competition handgun. But it's a great 'practical competition' handgun.

NTM

Last edited by Manic Moran; 31-08-2010 at 16:55.
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03-09-2010, 13:26   #21
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Baikal IZH 35
Baikal IZH 35M
Benelli MP90S
Benelli MP95E
Beretta U22 Neos\87
Browning Buckmark
FAS Domino SP602
FAS Domino SP607
FAS Domino SP 607 Light
Feinwerbkau AW 93
Feinwerbkau AW 93 Light
Frankonia Favorit
Hammerli 208\S
Hammerli 280
Hammerli SP 20\SP 20 RRS\Xesse
Matchguns MG2\E
Matchguns MG2\E-RF
Morini CM102E\CM22E\M\RF
Pardini SPE
Pardini SP or SP Rapid Fire
Pardini SP1 or SP 1 Rapid Fire
Sako Tri-Ace
Smith & Wesson 22A\41\617
Ruger Mark I\ II\ III
Taurus 94
Tesro TS 22-2
Unique DES 69\U
Walther GSP or GSP expert
Walther SP22\SSP\M4
Walther KSP\SSP
I am in America. I have never been shooting in Ireland. I can make some comments. I like to shoot BE.

There are not many good choices in the low price. Avoid the Baikal. They have a reputation for being inconsistent with quality. The price is not that good.

The Benelli are too expensive. Their value is limited.

Skip the Beretta Neo. It has a horrible trigger.

The Browning Buckmark is a good value. An older Buckmark from the '90's or late '80's does not have a magazine safety. It would be a good choice. Earlier Buckmarks have a heel release. The ~84+ Buckmarks have a magazine release on the side of the grip. Buckmark stands behind the product and has much better CS than others. Several after-market rails are available. Back end of the gun is weak in comparison to some guns, but easy of work and repair is better than found in others such as the Ruger. The Serial number is nut on the barrel, which means that you can receive replacement barrels in the US with less hassle. It is a big plus here. Barrel changes are relatively easy with only the removal of 3 screws required.

FAS - no idea

FW - I have not seen them at any of travel league shoots.

Frankonia - no idea

Hammerli - only a few guys shoot them. They are very expensive to maintain in the long run.

Matchguns - no idea

Morini - don't think it is a good value.

Pardini - well liked and reliable in 22

Sako - no idea

S-W - Go for the 41. Skip the 22A. Cheap gun and overpriced in comparison to Ruger or Buckmark. Quality is alleged to be poor in the early '90's. I have been the factory. I have seen the CNC machines. It is a top notch operation, but you are getting a lot of CNC machined parts. Gun runs for $850+ in the free USA for the 7", but dealers try to charge more for the 5". The cost to mount the optic and such makes it seem silly. Just go buy a Ruger or Buckmark instead. If you want to spend then go for a Pardini or a Walther GSP

Ruger - CS is not really that good. Some people talk wonders about them, but they don't actually give warranties. You are at their whim. MK III is value priced, but has LCI and magazine safety which deter from good operation and decent trigger. MK II command premium and have heel release. The MK III has a release on the side of the grip. The receiver/chamber is an integral part of the barrel fixture. The serial number is on the barrel. This makes it harder to change to aftermarket BE or Tac Solution setup.

Taurus - never seen

Unique - no idea

Walther - SP22 is junk. STAY AWAY!! SSP is not necessarily the right choice for an optic. You need the Doktor mount. The better value for an optic gun would probably be with the GSP. One guy in the league has a very nice set of aftermarket grips for his. He shoots High master with it. The fellow with the SSP shoots High Master. I see little difference in effectiveness. The GSP is a good choice.

Bill

Last edited by the_doctor; 03-09-2010 at 13:30.
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03-09-2010, 22:36   #22
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That's good info the_doctor, a lot of what's on the list has not been seen here so any input is much appreciated.

There may be some price differences between here and the US though. The Buckmark seems to retail around the €700 mark ($900) here whereas it's probably half that in the states. On the other hand I believe that some of the European pistols can retail at far higher prices in the US than they do here. Many of the ones you say are too expensive can be much more affordable here. I suspect it has a lot to do with who imports them.

The Frankonia and Walther KSP200 are both IZH35s with some improvements made by the branders. The Walther has a slide lock system incorporated and is polished up a bit from the original.

FAS have been around for a long time and the Domino has (what was at the time) a highly unusual toploader system, that has since been incorporated by Walther in the SSP.

Interesting to hear that the SP22 is a piece of junk, It's not been seen here since it came out. I assume you're not confusing it with the P22 which is an unmitigated piece of junk

Anyway, thanks again for your input, it's much appreciated.
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04-09-2010, 22:37   #23
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Originally Posted by rrpc View Post
That's good info the_doctor, a lot of what's on the list has not been seen here so any input is much appreciated.

There may be some price differences between here and the US though. The Buckmark seems to retail around the €700 mark ($900) here whereas it's probably half that in the states. On the other hand I believe that some of the European pistols can retail at far higher prices in the US than they do here. Many of the ones you say are too expensive can be much more affordable here. I suspect it has a lot to do with who imports them.

The Frankonia and Walther KSP200 are both IZH35s with some improvements made by the branders. The Walther has a slide lock system incorporated and is polished up a bit from the original.

FAS have been around for a long time and the Domino has (what was at the time) a highly unusual toploader system, that has since been incorporated by Walther in the SSP.

Interesting to hear that the SP22 is a piece of junk, It's not been seen here since it came out. I assume you're not confusing it with the P22 which is an unmitigated piece of junk

Anyway, thanks again for your input, it's much appreciated.
The Price on the Buckmark is very high. If the S&W 41 is around the same price, then I would probably go for the 41. They average for $300 in the US. Do not buy the URX version. Target grips are not available for the Buckmark URX AFAIK.

The S&W 41 has a MSRP around $1200, but they do not sell for such. It all depends on which store you visit. In New England most stores sell for MSRP+/-. Other parts of the country have much better prices. The one Bass Pro in New England has the 41 for $900 right now. The S&W does not come ready for optics. This requires drilling and tapping holes and mounting a plate. Many people send their guns to Clark.

There are very affordable mounts for the Ruger and Buckmark series. You can install the mounts yourself. Many of the Ruger series come with the mount in the box. The Buckmark has their rail standard on many units. It is not a pict. rail. There is a pict rail mounting unit out there for $30.

The Buckmarks and the Rugers are the value guns, which are reliable and very accurate.

I have only seen the SSP. I have not seen the Domino. The Domino sounds interesting. It might not have been imported to the US.

The SP22 is not the same as the P22. The P22 sort of fills a need for some people. The P380 is a bizarre gun, which makes no sense. The SP22 is along a similar line. It is much talk, but very poor execution. Three persons in the club have them. The feel of the Trigger is bad. Pull is not good. The gun repeatedly jams. FTF and FTE on almost every brand of ammo even Aguila or Eley. Take down is not too good. Take down is so simple on a S&W 41. Cleaning the breach face in the Buckmark is incredibly easy to do as well. The price on the SP22 is crazy and the lack of aftermarket grips is very limiting. It is not a wise investment.

I think that people should just stay away from the Russian pistols.

The Walther GSP is approximately $2,000 or 1600 Euro. What is the price in an Irish store? I should also mention that the Walthers SSP and GSP are not distributed through the same outlet as the rest of the Walthers guns. Some Walthers guns are actually made by S&W. S&W is the american distributor for non-target Walther guns such as the SP22; Walthers does not seem to consider the SP22 as a target gun.

Bill

Last edited by the_doctor; 04-09-2010 at 22:43.
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04-09-2010, 23:12   #24
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The Price on the Buckmark is very high. If the S&W 41 is around the same price, then I would probably go for the 41. They average for $300 in the US. Do not buy the URX version. Target grips are not available for the Buckmark URX AFAIK.
Haven't actually seen a 41 here, so no idea on price. There are a few 22A's around alright and the owners seem to like them, again, no idea on price as some of them seem to have been bought second hand.

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The Buckmarks and the Rugers are the value guns, which are reliable and very accurate.
They seem to be the same here, people seem to either love or hate the Rugers, the Hammerli X-Esse would be as popular and in some respects be a better finished pistol. The trigger seems to be the big issue with the buckmark as it's not adjustable and can be very gritty.

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I have only seen the SSP. I have not seen the Domino. The Domino sounds interesting. It might not have been imported to the US.
I've shot an SSP and it's one of the best I've ever tried. It's inclined to be fussy about ammo and a little tricky to get used to as well as difficult enough to strip, but it really shoots well. Hellish expensive though at about €1700 .
This is the FAS SP607


I know a guy who has one (in .32 I think) but his is in Switzerland and I'm unlikely to see it. He seems to like it though.


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I think that people should just stay away from the Russian pistols.
You mean tractors . Our club has an IZH35 that was polished up somewhere along the way, it works well (though it has an aversion to some ammo) and I can't see too much going wrong with it as it's built like a tank and very simple.

Quote:
The Walther GSP is approximately $2,000 or 1600 Euro. What is the price in an Irish store? I should also mention that the Walthers SSP and GSP are not distributed through the same outlet as the rest of the Walthers guns. Some Walthers guns are actually made by S&W. S&W is the american distributor for non-target Walther guns such as the SP22; Walthers does not seem to consider the SP22 as a target gun.
GSPs are around €1300 I think, though you can get second hand ones in Germany from as low as €250. Not too many of the new models (GSP Expert) for sale second hand though.

There's a Walther SP22M4 which seems to be targeted towards the target sports and looks like this:



If you want a better idea of pistol prices in Europe, here's a good website.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg FAS Domino SP607.jpg (48.8 KB, 671 views)

Last edited by rrpc; 04-09-2010 at 23:16.
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04-09-2010, 23:34   #25
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Just an addendum to the last post on the Walthers. They seem to have adopted a new foresight system which was first seen on the SSP.



Basically you can turn it to get a wider or narrower front sight because the triangle has different length sides which gives infinite variation.

A guy in the club just got a new Hammerli X-Esse Sport which has that system. You just loosen a screw at the front and you can then rotate it freely.

Very simple and really effective.
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05-09-2010, 17:05   #26
the_doctor
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There's a Walther SP22M4 which seems to be targeted towards the target sports and looks like this:



If you want a better idea of pistol prices in Europe, here's a good website.
The Walther SP22 with the grip is around $700-800. I have seen one with the target grip. It has been horrible. One is best to stay with the Ruger.

The price on the GSP is better than the American price. How do I order a used one from Germany? This sounds like a really good deal.

bill
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05-09-2010, 17:06   #27
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Just an addendum to the last post on the Walthers. They seem to have adopted a new foresight system which was first seen on the SSP.



Basically you can turn it to get a wider or narrower front sight because the triangle has different length sides which gives infinite variation.

A guy in the club just got a new Hammerli X-Esse Sport which has that system. You just loosen a screw at the front and you can then rotate it freely.

Very simple and really effective.
The Hammerli X-Esse Sport has supposedly won at least one year at Camp Perry. However, there is only distributer. He is in Maine. You are looking at 800-1000$ with the good grips. The lack of availability at a store near you and the price on the 41 and other guns does little to encourage people to order those.

Lot of the guys around me shoot optics. Doesn't sound like many of you guys use optics. The serious competitors whom go to the Olympics(one in my league) or Camp Perry shoot Optics in the league and iron at the big events.

Bill
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05-09-2010, 17:10   #28
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The serious competitors whom go to the Olympics(one in my league) or Camp Perry shoot Optics in the league and iron at the big events.
In the ISSF events, we're not allowed to use optics of any kind, only iron. And as huge as the bullseye pistol event is in the US, we don't see much of it here at all, in fact I don't remember ever hearing of a match here. It tends to be either ISSF or PPC1500 or (before it was banned), IPSC.
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05-09-2010, 17:31   #29
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In the ISSF events, we're not allowed to use optics of any kind, only iron. And as huge as the bullseye pistol event is in the US, we don't see much of it here at all, in fact I don't remember ever hearing of a match here. It tends to be either ISSF or PPC1500 or (before it was banned), IPSC.
I think he knows that Sparks, most of the US competitors shoot both ISSF and NRA bulseye because they can use the same gear (apart from the optics).

It's been shot here a couple of times (NRA bullseye) but it's a long competition so it's been only shot in parts. I don't think any club has run the full competition.

Quote:
Originally Posted by the_doctor
The price on the GSP is better than the American price. How do I order a used one from Germany? This sounds like a really good deal.

bill
Not sure on the technical aspects of importing into the US bill, there have been a few threads on the subject on this forum if you're prepared to search, but here's the link to the seller's website: Frankonia. the site is in German, but it's not too difficult to figure out

That link should give you a list of Walthers in .22lr calibre, you can change the selections on the left.

Last edited by rrpc; 05-09-2010 at 17:37.
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06-09-2010, 14:39   #30
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Okay, thread split into the original topic (here) and on the whole suitability of the P226 for target shooting / politics stuff here.

Since this thread's now in the Target Shooting section which has a no-politics rule, lets keep the politics stuff in the other thread.
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