How will schools be able to go back in September?

Icyseanfitz · 29-07-2020 10:32am

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Just had CNN on there in the background and they had a report about some study of 100 Covid patients The US. 100 of them agreed to have MRI scans 10weeks after diagnosis and 60 of them returned inflamed hearts and other heart issues.

Shh there's no long term proof that we might have our lives seriously hampered, better to wait a few years until we all have caught it and working on 50% lung capacity for the rest of our lives, reasoned precautions are overrated.

caveat emptor · 29-07-2020 10:32am

Deleted User wrote: »

Many European countries have far shorter summer holidays than we have :

https://eacea.ec.europa.eu/national-policies/eurydice/sites/eurydice/files/school_calendars_19_20_en.pdf

Denmark and Germany are open for months. As are Sweden. They will probably be all closed by August but they have been open.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/07/school-openings-across-globe-suggest-ways-keep-coronavirus-bay-despite-outbreaks

Yeah I can't spot the fvcking difference at all at all.........
Experiments should be designed with a control group.
In this instance you don't want to be in the control group.
Our class sizes and the fact half of the classes are in porta cabins means we are the control group.

https://twitter.com/PioneerBoston/status/1287788041449414658?s=20

wirelessdude01 · 29-07-2020 10:32am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

The privilege was referring to the poster never seeing a CV with only leaving cert results, not the kids. If Johnny the kid who always misses school and struggles with reading comprehension rocks up with an A - or a H1 or whatever system they are using of late - in honours English, the local shop owner might have a few concerns.

Alarmist much? A D student isn't getting an A so stop with the BS.

Peter Flynt · 29-07-2020 10:32am

Lillyfae wrote: »

Sorry, this is behind a paywall. Can you please stop posting clickbait headlines and just post the whole article?

The headline says it all.

I'll repeat it again:
"Schools will not have to automatically disclose if there is a confirmed case"

wirelessdude01 · 29-07-2020 10:33am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Were they asymtomatic? Is there a link to the original study? CNN aren't a great source for scientific rigour.

I just saw it on TV. No idea and I ain't going to look for a study.

caveat emptor · 29-07-2020 10:34am

Peter Flynt wrote: »

The headline says it all.

I'll repeat it again:
"Schools will not have to automatically disclose if there is a confirmed case"

Same as Ryanair. That's why it's perfectly safe to go on holidays

Will Yam · 29-07-2020 10:34am

Deleted User wrote: »

Already people getting a COVID leaving cert won't be as valued by employers as people who actually sat it.

I doubt that.

If there had been a mix of results - like some sat the exams and others got the predictive grades - then preference might be given to the exam cohort as opposed to the grades cohort.

But to think that the class of 2019 will be preferred over that of 2020 is unlikely to any material degree.

HerrKuehn · 29-07-2020 10:35am

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

Shh there's no long term proof that we might have our lives seriously hampered, better to wait a few years until we all have caught it and working on 50% lung capacity for the rest of our lives, reasoned precautions are overrated.

Should we shut down everything just in case? Let everyone cocoon for a few years. Or is it just teachers that should be afforded that privilege?

Lillyfae · 29-07-2020 10:36am

Peter Flynt wrote: »

The headline says it all.

I'll repeat it again:
"Schools will not have to automatically disclose if there is a confirmed case"

The headline incites an emotion, nothing more. Someone shopping in the local Spar could have said it to someone else stacking shelves, there is no context whatsoever therefore it is useless information.

[Deleted User] · 29-07-2020 10:38am

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

You do know that Denmark cut their already small classes in half?

How do you propose we do that here - lets assume our class sizes are double theirs - that would mean 25% of kids that are currently in classrooms now ?

Maybe we can make creative use of gyms etc?

[Deleted User] · 29-07-2020 10:39am

Will Yam wrote: »

I doubt that.

If there had been a mix of results - like some sat the exams and others got the predictive grades - then preference might be given to the exam cohort as opposed to the grades cohort.

But to think that the class of 2019 will be preferred over that of 2020 is unlikely to any material degree.

There are some that will sit exams by choice, and people that were homeschooled will have to sit exams.

Loafing Oaf · 29-07-2020 10:40am

Deleted User wrote: »

How do you propose we do that here - lets assume our class sizes are double theirs - that would mean 25% of kids that are currently in classrooms now ?

Maybe we can make creative use of gyms etc?

We can't on any scale, and that's why reopening schools is a much dicier proposition for us.

wirelessdude01 · 29-07-2020 10:41am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

How do you propose we do that here - lets assume our class sizes are double theirs - that would mean 25% of kids that are currently in classrooms now ?

Maybe we can make creative use of gyms etc?

Those schools that have them might be able to do so.

I'm not proposing anything with regards to how to reduce class sizes, that is well above my pay grade. Just showing a hole in your argument that Denmark were back so we should be as well. Not a level playing field at all.

[Deleted User] · 29-07-2020 10:41am

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

I just saw it on TV. No idea and I ain't going to look for a study.

CNN are the channel one one story chastising people at beaches for spreading COVID and in the next story showing thousands of unmasked protestors crammed together saying that there is no risk. While Fox News says the opposite. So I'd take everything they say with a large grain of salt.

Peter Flynt · 29-07-2020 10:42am

South Korea v Ireland on reopening schools:

In South Korea:
Temperature checks for all staff & students
Social distancing
Classrooms without sufficient ventilation are closed
Plastic shields around the front and sides of each desk
Disinfecting of hands every 45 minutes
MANDATORY mask wearing
Blended learning (online and at school)
A maximum of 8 per class.

In Ireland:
No temperature checks
All rooms used regardless of ventilation - instead plans with 93 people in poorly ventilated gyms (if the school has a gym)
No plastic shields,
Mask wearing not mandatory
Everyone returning to overcrowded classrooms
No social distancing OR 1 m social distancing with no plan
30+ per class permitted.
No compulsion for a school with a COVID case to declare it.

Lillyfae · 29-07-2020 10:42am

Deleted User wrote: »

Many European countries have far shorter summer holidays than we have :

https://eacea.ec.europa.eu/national-policies/eurydice/sites/eurydice/files/school_calendars_19_20_en.pdf

Denmark and Germany are open for months. As are Sweden. They will probably be all closed by August but they have been open.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/07/school-openings-across-globe-suggest-ways-keep-coronavirus-bay-despite-outbreaks

When the children were sent home from schools in the Netherlands, the staff (teachers and otherwise) immediately started planning for them to return as soon as possible. Deep cleaning. Reconfiguring classrooms. Sourcng masks and gloves. Setting up handwashing stations at the entrance to buildings. Figuring out a one way system. Staff protocols, visitor protocols, all the rest. Nobody asked the government for guidance or advice specific to schools. They were following the national broadcasts like everyone else and adapting to the latest information.

caveat emptor · 29-07-2020 10:44am

Will Yam wrote: »

I doubt that.

If there had been a mix of results - like some sat the exams and others got the predictive grades - then preference might be given to the exam cohort as opposed to the grades cohort.

But to think that the class of 2019 will be preferred over that of 2020 is unlikely to any material degree.

That could be the case if the job is based on memorising a tonne of random ****e that you need to regurgitate in a very short space of time with pen and paper.

I rarely use that skill but when I have to wow. You should see it. I memorise and write like a demon.

Gentleman Off The Pitch · 29-07-2020 10:45am

Deleted User wrote: »

CNN are the channel one one story chastising people at beaches for spreading COVID and in the next story showing thousands of unmasked protestors crammed together saying that there is no risk. While Fox News says the opposite. So I'd take everything they say with a large grain of salt.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamacardiology/fullarticle/2768916?T=AU
I haven't read the study, just posting here for anyone who wants to

the corpo · 29-07-2020 10:45am

Deleted User wrote: »

Denmark and Germany are open for months. As are Sweden. They will probably be all closed by August but they have been open.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/07/school-openings-across-globe-suggest-ways-keep-coronavirus-bay-despite-outbreaks

You said "Most other European countries with the virus under control have had schools back for months now." .

3 isn't most.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 29-07-2020 10:46am

HerrKuehn wrote: »

Should we shut down everything just in case? Let everyone cocoon for a few years. Or is it just teachers that should be afforded that privilege?

I don't think there is anyone arguing for schools to remain closed.

They want precautions observed in schools to allow for SD etc

Alot of workplaces have changed practice to allow for these changes but schools are firing all students back in September and, in reality, SD is going to be next to impossible to implement

Quick examples,
if you book a cinema seat, capacity is limited, people can't book the row in front of, or behind, you
If you go shopping, capacity is limited, perspex screens are used, masks are worn
waiting rooms for doctors are closed or capacity is limited, masks worn

Schools are ploughing on with little consideration for overcrowded classrooms, corridors, canteens or school buses.

What people want is at least some effort to be made at reducing, not eliminating, risk.

Don't know why people can't follow this

Options could have included, reduced class size, extend school day or use Saturday morning, use local conference centres/community halls to take overflow of students etc

Very little imagination in the plan. Diagrams of classroom layouts with students' noses to the wall, farcical stuff

Icyseanfitz · 29-07-2020 10:46am

Lillyfae wrote: »

When the children were sent home from schools in the Netherlands, the staff (teachers and otherwise) immediately started planning for them to return as soon as possible. Deep cleaning. Reconfiguring classrooms. Sourcng masks and gloves. Setting up handwashing stations at the entrance to buildings. Figuring out a one way system. Staff protocols, visitor protocols, all the rest. Nobody asked the government for guidance or advice specific to schools. They were following the national broadcasts like everyone else and adapting to the latest information.

And the reason that wasn't done in Ireland is because the DoE can and has waltzed in after putting out a 'plan' and insist you remove or change everything you and your staff put in place

[Deleted User] · 29-07-2020 10:46am

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Those schools that have them might be able to do so.

I'm not proposing anything with regards to how to reduce class sizes, that is well above my pay grade. Just showing a hole in your argument that Denmark were back so we should be as well. Not a level playing field at all.

https://www.bbc.com/news/education-52550470

According to this, they have groups of 12 children.

"Danish education law stipulates a maximum class size of 28 students for primary and lower secondary schools." That's not far off our numbers.

https://pure.au.dk/ws/files/32351405/bingley-jensen-walker-classsize-asb.pdf

So we need double the capacity to follow the Danish model.

the corpo · 29-07-2020 10:48am

I'm desparate for the schools to reopen, and entirely recognise risk will have to be a factor.

What's not acceptable is that risk being dangerous, and I believe the reopening plan as it stands is dangerous.

combat14 · 29-07-2020 10:48am

Peter Flynt wrote: »

South Korea v Ireland on reopening schools:

In South Korea:
Temperature checks for all staff & students
Social distancing
Classrooms without sufficient ventilation are closed
Plastic shields around the front and sides of each desk
Disinfecting of hands every 45 minutes
MANDATORY mask wearing
Blended learning (online and at school)
A maximum of 8 per class.

In Ireland:
No temperature checks
All rooms used regardless of ventilation - instead plans with 93 people in poorly ventilated gyms (if the school has a gym)
No plastic shields,
Mask wearing not mandatory
Everyone returning to overcrowded classrooms
No social distancing OR 1 m social distancing with no plan
30+ per class permitted.
No compulsion for a school with a COVID case to declare it.

its absolutely horrific when put side by side exactly the way a lawyer would present it in the court room

lets hope this experiment goes well or the government will be facing billions in court expenses after this for sheer negligence

wirelessdude01 · 29-07-2020 10:48am

Lillyfae wrote: »

When the children were sent home from schools in the Netherlands, the staff (teachers and otherwise) immediately started planning for them to return as soon as possible. Deep cleaning. Reconfiguring classrooms. Sourcng masks and gloves. Setting up handwashing stations at the entrance to buildings. Figuring out a one way system. Staff protocols, visitor protocols, all the rest. Nobody asked the government for guidance or advice specific to schools. They were following the national broadcasts like everyone else and adapting to the latest information.

Our school is so clean right now. I drew up plans for 1/2m SD in the classroom but guess what they weren't needed as the govt went a different way. I went in yesterday and can only fit 24 out of 28 if I follow the pod and 1m SD system. We don't have money for handwashing stations at the door. No provision from the govt to do so either. Protocols for staff and visitors could only be properly drawn up once guidelines from the govt were received as believe it or not that is what they are built on.

iamwhoiam · 29-07-2020 10:50am

Icyseanfitz wrote: »

And the reason that wasn't done in Ireland is because the DoE can and has waltzed in after putting out a 'plan' and insist you remove or change everything you and your staff put in place

The DoE were unlikely to remove deep cleaning or hand sanitizer or cleaning equipment .

Alrigghtythen · 29-07-2020 10:51am

Lillyfae wrote: »

When the children were sent home from schools in the Netherlands, the staff (teachers and otherwise) immediately started planning for them to return as soon as possible. Deep cleaning. Reconfiguring classrooms. Sourcng masks and gloves. Setting up handwashing stations at the entrance to buildings. Figuring out a one way system. Staff protocols, visitor protocols, all the rest. Nobody asked the government for guidance or advice specific to schools. They were following the national broadcasts like everyone else and adapting to the latest information.

They're back since the 8 june and we're still thinking

Rivm has some interesting reading on primary schools

lulublue22 · 29-07-2020 10:53am

Lillyfae wrote: »

Long term damage is not proven- that proof is impossible because the virus is novel. I do believe that you've said your child is asthmatic so definitely, precautions need to be taken for those who are potentially vulnerable.

We are living in a global economy. In the rest of Europe even, schools are functioning well- be that back full time, blended learning, online platforms- there is standardization and continuity in education. Education systems in other countries are continuing, so this does not affect all children. It affects Irish children, and those in the other countries that also haven't got their act together.

Yes I do so I am obviously more concerned re long term consequences than a parent who doesn’t have a child with underlying health issues. The gov’s plan makes no adequate provision for children in the very high risk category don’t mind say the at risk category. But believe it or believe it not that’s not my greatest issue with this plan.

From a professional perspective I agree with you. However that does not equate with jumping on the first plan the gov produces as if it will solve all our problems. This plan is not about maximising children’s access to education no matter wg
hat parents want to believe. If it was under no circumstances would it be even considered that SET would cover illness. It is such a slap in the face to all those children who need additional support. Those very children who are adversely affected by the lockdown as is. Under the current proposals SD is not an option. Therefore increased levels of sanitation are a must. Given the amount of children in each pod up to 32 significant time will be allocated to hygiene and sanitation. That will eat into the curriculum . Organising children who are ill - getting them to an isolation room finding staff to stay with them will eat into curriculum time. Having all children in school at all times in the present circumstances will not automatically equate with increased access to education.

This pandemic could have been use to address issues in our education system - yes it is good that money was allocated for building upgrades unfortunately a little bit on the late side. This was / is a perfect time to address class size going forward but no. The gov had months and I presume access to the experts to come up with a plan - this one seems very rushed and ill thought out. Perhaps because it started from the premise - how do we get all children back full time rather than how can children return to school safely while maximising learning.

I would have expected that high risk children ( again I’m talking about very high risk not even at risk ) could have been provided for with an online learning delivered by high risk teachers instead it’s a by line in the guidelines - provided for at the local level which will be fun when those tasked with doing so will be covering classes.

Boggles · 29-07-2020 10:54am

Lillyfae wrote: »

When the children were sent home from schools in the Netherlands, the staff (teachers and otherwise) immediately started planning for them to return as soon as possible. Deep cleaning. Reconfiguring classrooms. Sourcng masks and gloves. Setting up handwashing stations at the entrance to buildings. Figuring out a one way system. Staff protocols, visitor protocols, all the rest. Nobody asked the government for guidance or advice specific to schools. They were following the national broadcasts like everyone else and adapting to the latest information.

The Dutch plan for reopening which will be published shortly, but they are most certainly going the blended learning route with very strict social distancing measures.

Peter Flynt · 29-07-2020 10:54am

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Our school is so clean right now. I drew up plans for 1/2m SD in the classroom but guess what they weren't needed as the govt went a different way. I went in yesterday and can only fit 24 out of 28 if I follow the pod and 1m SD system. We don't have money for handwashing stations at the door. No provision from the govt to do so either. Protocols for staff and visitors could only be properly drawn up once guidelines from the govt were received as believe it or not that is what they are built on.

Didn't the Department draw up plans for 24 students in 7m x 7m rooms (which is impossible unless you consider all students to be infinitesimal small particles of mass)?

What happens if, as is often the case, the class exceeds 24?

Who decides which 6 leave in a class of 30?

How will schools be able to go back in September?

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