How will schools be able to go back in September?

29-07-2020 10:03am

HerrKuehn wrote: »

No, their opinion is based on the best available evidence at the time. As the evidence changes, so too might their opinion. But it is an informed opinion. Do you not think he reads all available papers rather than just bits published in newspapers?

Justify the position on masks being ineffective by the WHO and actually harmful by de Gascun then. This was totally against all the available evidence about any respiratory virus that ever existed before. And don't try the weasel words about "no evidence at the time". This killed people. As did moving people from COVID hospitals into nursing homes. Either of these things didn't take a doctorate in epidemiology to know they were bad ideas.

I've got a degree in science; this totally went against best practices. If bridges were built like this they would all collapse.

Boggles · 29-07-2020 10:04am

Deleted User wrote: »

Better not to send kids to school for the next four years then.

Yeah way better to send them all in under the current "plan" which will accelerate the reseeding of the virus in community which will lead to further national restrictions including school closures. Public Health measures don't apply to over a fifth of population in over crowed confined spaces. #science.

Like I keep saying we know all this things now, but after Wave 2 and just before Wave 3 we may actually cop on and stop cherry picking the science around this novel virus where the vast majority of the country have no immunity.

NPHET have said it will only take a rise of 20 infections per 100,000 and we are back to reintroducing national restrictions.

With margins like that you would imagine we would at least try and get things right.

No, sure twil be grand.

Peter Flynt · 29-07-2020 10:04am

"Schools will not have to automatically disclose if there is a confirmed case"

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/only-close-contacts-will-be-told-about-covid-19-cases-in-schools-39406571.html

caveat emptor · 29-07-2020 10:06am

Deleted User wrote: »

Better not to send kids to school for the next four years then.

I'll be very clear. I want my child to go back to school. I can't wait. I'm fvcking sick of Netflix ****e he has to watch while I work.

What I will be doing is waiting and seeing. Letting other people go first.
I did this in the office and within 2 weeks it was closed down.
I can't see a different outcome here.
What I can see is come December the dissent in the country will be such that the gov will be forced to implement zero covid approach like NI and Scotland.

The reinfection news out of Iran won't go down well with health care workers either. The herd immunity is a pipe dream so we'll be in a steady state rolling lockdown versus trying to really contain it from abroad and getting it to zero here.

Can you see the similarities?

Lillyfae · 29-07-2020 10:07am

Peter Flynt wrote: »

"Schools will not have to automatically disclose if there is a confirmed case"

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/only-close-contacts-will-be-told-about-covid-19-cases-in-schools-39406571.html

Sorry, this is behind a paywall. Can you please stop posting clickbait headlines and just post the whole article?

29-07-2020 10:07am

Boggles wrote: »

Yeah way better to send them all in under the current "plan" which will accelerate the reseeding of the virus in community which will lead to further national restrictions including school closures. Public Health measures don't apply to over a fifth of population in over crowed confined spaces. #science.

Like I keep saying we know all this things now, but after Wave 2 and just before Wave 3 we may actually cop on and stop cherry picking the science around this novel virus where the vast majority of the country have no immunity.

NPHET have said it will only take a rise of 20 infections per 100,000 and we are back to reintroducing national restrictions.

With margins like that you would imagine we would at least try and get things right.

No, sure twil be grand.

Practical compromises have to be made.

29-07-2020 10:07am

caveat emptor wrote: »

Yeah that was bull. They had a recommendation based on the following.....
We can't procure masks for health care workers

If the general public start buying them it would exasperate the situation.

We should muddy the waters and say they don't work.

That way we have political cover.

let's say they don't work.

This is quite similar situation in my mind.

we need kids to go back to school
for the economy

for people's sanity

for their future education

science is unclear on weather there will be long term damage even to asymptotic cases

that problem won't manifest for years to come

lets open schools.

I agree actually. What they *should* do is state the facts as they are known now and take a calculated risk. Having schools closed for years - as we are potentially looking at - will have a huge cost to society too.

Already people getting a COVID leaving cert won't be as valued by employers as people who actually sat it.

Other workers are taking the same risks every day - the time has come for schools to reopen too.

jimmytwotimes 2013 · 29-07-2020 10:09am

Alrigghtythen wrote: »

That's exactly what we need Jimmy. We cant be hand holding now because of social distancing. We'll show the way, but the teachers will have to come out from under the bed themselves

Solidarity Reg.

I'm after bringing all my food and drinks up here under the bed. When I've that finished I'll come out and find you.

Boggles · 29-07-2020 10:09am

Deleted User wrote: »

Practical compromises have to be made.

Absolutely.

Like I said after Wave 2 just before Wave 3.

Every day is a learning day.

#science.

HerrKuehn · 29-07-2020 10:10am

Deleted User wrote: »

Justify the position on masks being ineffective by the WHO and actually harmful by de Gascun then. This was totally against all the available evidence about any respiratory virus that ever existed before. And don't try the weasel words about "no evidence at the time". This killed people. As did moving people from COVID hospitals into nursing homes. Either of these things didn't take a doctorate in epidemiology to know they were bad ideas.

I've got a degree in science; this totally went against best practices. If bridges were built like this they would all collapse.

I am not in a position to say what informed his opinion at the time, I wasn't in any of the meetings. It is others who are suggesting it is something nefarious. I haven't seen anything to suggest we should doubt his character either.
So, you have a degree in science, well done. Join the very large crowd. Most of the posters here with strong opinions probably never read papers in a scientific journal, never mind publishing papers.

xhomelezz · 29-07-2020 10:10am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Better not to send kids to school for the next four years then.

That's not the option. But for me that new plan is no option either. I just can't understand why would they send all kids in as normal. My older starting 6. year, he actually went through that plan and it seems as nonsense to him. He wants to go back, but he is kind of thinking they'll be just a guinea pigs with teachers in proposed scenario. And I fully agree with him.

wirelessdude01 · 29-07-2020 10:11am

Peter Flynt wrote: »

"Schools will not have to automatically disclose if there is a confirmed case"

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/only-close-contacts-will-be-told-about-covid-19-cases-in-schools-39406571.html

If there is a case the whole community will know within a day. WhatsApp groups make sure of that.

Boggles · 29-07-2020 10:11am

Deleted User wrote: »

Already people getting a COVID leaving cert won't be as valued by employers as people who actually sat it.

I have conducted literally 100s of interviews, I never looked at a leaving cert result in any of them.

It's rare you would even come across anyone publishing what they got in their leaving anymore.

wirelessdude01 · 29-07-2020 10:13am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Already people getting a COVID leaving cert won't be as valued by employers as people who actually sat it.

Are the people who got the drivers license amnesty all those years ago looked at differently by insurance companies? No.

lulublue22 · 29-07-2020 10:14am

Lillyfae wrote: »

This is exactly it. We can all post any data we want about any argument we want to support about Covid-19, but the bottom line is any data about Covid-19 is limited to less than 8 months. That is what the zealots on either side fail to admit/ understand. Any scientific research has to add that as part of the conclusion- we do not know what the long term impact of Covid-19 is. We don't even know what the medium term impact of Covid-19 is

Children have already missed months of education and social development. Chances are, this will go on for years. They have no say whatsoever in this, no real understanding of why it's happening. .

On a personal level I’d take missed education( it can be made up part as this is an issue which affects all children ) over long term damage to my child’s lungs and consequently long term affects on the quality of their life.

This may go on for years or it may not. Work on vaccines is ongoing. Best case is the middle of next year for mass production. Yes this is not a given and it will bring its own concerns but it counters the theory that this may go on for years. Bottom line it may or it may not.

A partial return to school with a clear roadmap of extending childrens attendance similar to the proposed re opening roadmap could have been implemented. It would have given children the routine security of school. It would have maximised teaching time - easier and less time consuming to sanitise and wash hands etc with a pods of 15 rather than 30. SD could even have been achieved. It wasn’t considered. Why ? Economics that’s why - not childrens education or health. This is a political decision based on economics.

29-07-2020 10:14am

Boggles wrote: »

I have conducted literally 100s of interviews, I never looked at a leaving cert result in any of them.

It's rare you would even come across anyone publishing what they got in their leaving anymore.

Your privilege is showing. There are still tens of thousands of people being employed on the basis of their Leaving Cert.

29-07-2020 10:16am

Boggles wrote: »

Yeah way better to send them all in under the current "plan" which will accelerate the reseeding of the virus in community which will lead to further national restrictions including school closures. Public Health measures don't apply to over a fifth of population in over crowed confined spaces. #science.

Like I keep saying we know all this things now, but after Wave 2 and just before Wave 3 we may actually cop on and stop cherry picking the science around this novel virus where the vast majority of the country have no immunity.

NPHET have said it will only take a rise of 20 infections per 100,000 and we are back to reintroducing national restrictions.

With margins like that you would imagine we would at least try and get things right.

No, sure twil be grand.

Most other European countries with the virus under control have had schools back for months now. The recent "spikes" are all due to tourism, family gatherings or nightlife.

On cherrypicking the science, you have to take it in account and then make rational decisions based on it. Shutting schools indefinitely on the basis of a possible unknowable threat isn't rational. Sometimes you will get it wrong. What you shouldn't do is be deliberately misleading like the masks debacle.

Lillyfae · 29-07-2020 10:17am

HerrKuehn wrote: »

So, you have a degree in science, well done. Join the very large crowd. Most of the posters here with strong opinions probably never read papers in a scientific journal, never mind publishing papers.

I know, right? I have 2 science degrees, so undergrad and postgrad, but it doesn't mean I have the faintest clue about Physics. They could be degrees in Political Science for god's sake! Or Legal Science :pac::pac::pac:

Boggles · 29-07-2020 10:19am

Deleted User wrote: »

Most other European countries with the virus under control have had schools back for months now. The recent "spikes" are all due to tourism, family gatherings or nightlife.

Really? Which ones, I'm pretty sure it's summer holidays all over Europe.

But tell me, which countries have sent their entire school population back under a similar plan to ours?

Take your time.

Deleted User wrote: »

Shutting schools indefinitely

I never suggest that, mental idea.

Schools should be open at the end of next month with a plan based on actual science and public health to keep them open for the entire year.

This "plan" doesn't do that.

wirelessdude01 · 29-07-2020 10:19am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Your privilege is showing. There are still tens of thousands of people being employed on the basis of their Leaving Cert.

On the basis of passing their leaving cert. This year's class will just have been passed using a different system. No privilege there at all.

29-07-2020 10:23am

Lillyfae wrote: »

I know, right? I have 2 science degrees, so undergrad and postgrad, but it doesn't mean I have the faintest clue about Physics. They could be degrees in Political Science for god's sake! Or Legal Science :pac::pac::pac:

I should clarify it's a STEM discipline that teaches the scientific method. You don't need to know anything about Physics to recognise a bad experiment fudging results when you see one.

Icyseanfitz · 29-07-2020 10:23am

Boggles wrote: »

Really? Which ones, I'm pretty sure it's summer holidays all over Europe.

But tell me, which countries have sent their entire school population back under a similar plan to ours?

Take your time.

I never suggest that, mental idea.

Schools should be open at the end of next month with a plan based on actual science and public health to keep them open for the entire year.

This "plan" doesn't do that.

And even if other European countries did send their entire school going population back it would equate to us sending half of ours back due to our shocking class sizes. Why people don't grasp that simple fact is beyond me.

Lillyfae · 29-07-2020 10:25am

lulublue22 wrote: »

On a personal level I’d take missed education( it can be made up part as this is an issue which affects all children ) over long term damage to my child’s lungs and consequently long term affects on the quality of their life.

Long term damage is not proven- that proof is impossible because the virus is novel. I do believe that you've said your child is asthmatic so definitely, precautions need to be taken for those who are potentially vulnerable.

We are living in a global economy. In the rest of Europe even, schools are functioning well- be that back full time, blended learning, online platforms- there is standardization and continuity in education. Education systems in other countries are continuing, so this does not affect all children. It affects Irish children, and those in the other countries that also haven't got their act together.

ricero · 29-07-2020 10:25am

The priority for me was the for the DES to try reduce class sizes and they seem to have failed miserably at this from reading their plan. There is not enough teachers out there for this to happen. Its that simple.

They have had since March to come up with a comprehensive plan to implement social distancing and a return to formal education. This document seems the work of fantasy and pseudoscience. The dismissal of masks in poorly ventelalated and congested classrooms is further evidence to this.

The dog on the street knows that this is doomed to fail, especially at second level. The lack of investment in the past decade has come back to haunt the DES. The chickens have come home to roost.

29-07-2020 10:27am

Boggles wrote: »

Really? Which ones, I'm pretty sure it's summer holidays all over Europe.

Many European countries have far shorter summer holidays than we have :

https://eacea.ec.europa.eu/national-policies/eurydice/sites/eurydice/files/school_calendars_19_20_en.pdf

Denmark and Germany are open for months. As are Sweden. They will probably be all closed by August but they have been open.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/07/school-openings-across-globe-suggest-ways-keep-coronavirus-bay-despite-outbreaks

wirelessdude01 · 29-07-2020 10:28am

Lillyfae wrote: »

Long term damage is not proven- that proof is impossible because the virus is novel. I do believe that you've said your child is asthmatic so definitely, precautions need to be taken for those who are potentially vulnerable.

We are living in a global economy. In the rest of Europe even, schools are functioning well- be that back full time, blended learning, online platforms- there is standardization and continuity in education. Education systems in other countries are continuing, so this does not affect all children. It affects Irish children, and those in the other countries that also haven't got their act together.

Just had CNN on there in the background and they had a report about some study of 100 Covid patients The US. 100 of them agreed to have MRI scans 10weeks after diagnosis and 60 of them returned inflamed hearts and other heart issues.

wirelessdude01 · 29-07-2020 10:29am

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Many European countries have far shorter summer holidays than we have :

https://eacea.ec.europa.eu/national-policies/eurydice/sites/eurydice/files/school_calendars_19_20_en.pdf

Denmark and Germany are open for months. As are Sweden. They will probably be all closed by August but they have been open.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/07/school-openings-across-globe-suggest-ways-keep-coronavirus-bay-despite-outbreaks

You do know that Denmark cut their already small classes in half?

29-07-2020 10:30am

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

On the basis of passing their leaving cert. This year's class will just have been passed using a different system. No privilege there at all.

The privilege was referring to the poster never seeing a CV with only leaving cert results, not the kids. If Johnny the kid who always misses school and struggles with reading comprehension rocks up with an A - or a H1 or whatever system they are using of late - in honours English, the local shop owner might have a few concerns.

29-07-2020 10:31am

wirelessdude01 wrote: »

Just had CNN on there in the background and they had a report about some study of 100 Covid patients The US. 100 of them agreed to have MRI scans 10weeks after diagnosis and 60 of them returned inflamed hearts and other heart issues.

Were they asymtomatic? Is there a link to the original study? CNN aren't a great source for scientific rigour.

Boggles · 29-07-2020 10:32am

Deleted User wrote: »

Many European countries have far shorter summer holidays than we have :

https://eacea.ec.europa.eu/national-policies/eurydice/sites/eurydice/files/school_calendars_19_20_en.pdf

Denmark and Germany are open for months. As are Sweden. They will probably be all closed by August but they have been open.

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2020/07/school-openings-across-globe-suggest-ways-keep-coronavirus-bay-despite-outbreaks

Yes, certain Countries have shorter holidays, I never suggested otherwise.

But could you at least try and take a stab at the question I actually asked you?

How will schools be able to go back in September?

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