Little Tern Project - 23 foxes shot

Working class heroes · 30-08-2019 10:15am

2011 wrote: »

Regardless of your views on the matter the fact is dead foxes don't kill birds and shooting is only ineffective if the foxes are not shot in sufficient numbers.

Maybe they did well because there were less foxes were around which is why only 4 or 5 were shot?

Manned by who?

So you also accept, if properly founded/resourced that it’s possible to protect the LTs without shooting the foxes?

Maybe if there were large numbers of volunteers that would patrol the fence shooting wouldn't be the only workable option? Because right now there is no practical alternative.

So you accept that if properly funded/resourced it’s possible to protect the LT without the need to shoot foxes?

Capercaillie · 30-08-2019 10:25am

Working class heroes wrote: »

So you accept there is an “100% effective predator control fence” then?

No fence is 100% protective against predators since it does not protect against avian predators.

Capercaillie · 30-08-2019 10:28am

Working class heroes wrote: »

So you accept that if properly funded/resourced it’s possible to protect the LT without the need to shoot foxes?

There are breeding waders in that area like lapwings. Wader numbers are crashing, intensive predator control for foxes/corvids/mink would greatly benefit wader species. I would prefer that there was much more intensive culling at that site. Give the little terns/waders a better chance!

Working class heroes · 30-08-2019 10:35am

Capercaillie wrote: »

No fence is 100% protective against predators since it does not protect against avian predators.

Well you just had a pop at someone asking them to assist in funding one.
You can’t have it both ways.

Working class heroes · 30-08-2019 10:36am

Capercaillie wrote: »

There are breeding waders in that area like lapwings. Wader numbers are crashing, intensive predator control for foxes/corvids/mink would greatly benefit wader species. I would prefer that there was much more intensive culling at that site. Give the little terns/waders a better chance!

That’s not answering my question.

Capercaillie · 30-08-2019 10:43am

Working class heroes wrote: »

Well you just had a pop at someone asking them to assist in funding one.
You can’t have it both ways.

You seem convinced that they would be effective and that foxes don't need to be culled there, in all fairness.

30-08-2019 10:55am

Working class heroes wrote: »

So you accept that if properly funded/resourced it’s possible to protect the LT without the need to shoot foxes?

Do I believe that sufficient numbers of people patrolling an inadequate fence can prevent foxes from crossing it? Yes I do.

Do I believe that BWI can get the people and funding required to make this happen for the time period required? Nope. No chance whatsoever.

Capercaillie · 30-08-2019 11:02am

2011 wrote: »

Do I believe that sufficient numbers of people patrolling an inadequate fence can prevent foxes from crossing it? Yes I do.

Do I believe that BWI can get the people and funding required to make this happen for the time period required? Nope. No chance whatsoever.

BWI have permanent "predator-proof" fence at wader site at Annagh Marsh in Mayo. Foxes have jumped over fence, overgrown grass has earthed the electric fence, tyres have been left beside fence allowing access to predators, predators have dug under fence!!!

30-08-2019 11:22am

Capercaillie wrote: »

BWI have permanent "predator-proof" fence at wader site at Annagh Marsh in Mayo. Foxes have jumped over fence, overgrown grass has earthed the electric fence, tyres have been left beside fence allowing access to predators, predators have dug under fence!!!

Ok, so which part of my post to you disagree with?

archer22 · 30-08-2019 1:00pm

Capercaillie wrote: »

No fence is 100% protective against predators since it does not protect against avian predators.

Electric fences are very effective and if on the rare event of a Fox figuring a way to get through, surely it is easier to deal with that rare animal than constantly killing every Fox in the countryside.

And you mention "avian predators" aka birds of prey..how do you deal with them then?
Is it a Bang Bang solution again!..or is the shooting of the Foxes supposed to send a message to them

30-08-2019 1:15pm

archer22 wrote: »

Electric fences are very effective and if on the rare event of a Fox figuring a way to get through, surely it is easier to deal with that rare animal than constantly killing every Fox in the countryside.

How would you propose that rare animal is dealt with?

And you mention "avian predators" aka birds of prey..how do you deal with them then?
Is it a Bang Bang solution again!..

I was wondering the same

Capercaillie · 30-08-2019 1:20pm

2011 wrote: »

Ok, so which part of my post to you disagree with?

First part.

Sika98k · 30-08-2019 1:37pm

Rooks and grey crows are common robbers of nests. Someone has mentioned the other birds on the marsh that benefit, lapwing, mallard, in fact all ground nesting birds are at risk from predation.

archer22 · 30-08-2019 1:38pm

2011 wrote: »

How would you propose that rare animal is dealt with?

I was wondering the same

I think most people would consider the shooting of such an individual Fox to be acceptable.
What is not acceptable is the endless wholesale slaughter of every Fox.

And another thing is the endless slaughter of all Foxes in the area will likely lead to a huge increase in the local Rat population.

And then for the Tern colony?.

Capercaillie · 30-08-2019 1:55pm

In the rare (not so rare in reality) that a fox would get into the Little Tern colony, it would generally kill most of chicks present! Better to not let that happen, you need (best practice) intensive fox control around colony. Foxes would only need to be culled during tern breeding season. You will get backfill of foxes into area during Autumn/Winter so you would not get problem with rats.

Kestrels/Peregrines can sometimes predate tern colonies, Raptors are protected so you cannot cull them. Diversionary feeding works well for kestrels though to prevent them attacking colony.

Main avian predators would be corvids. Best solution for them is ladder/larsen traps.

archer22 · 30-08-2019 2:19pm

Capercaillie wrote: »

In the rare (not so rare in reality) that a fox would get into the Little Tern colony, it would generally kill most of chicks present! Better to not let that happen, you need (best practice) intensive fox control around colony. Foxes would only need to be culled during tern breeding season. You will get backfill of foxes into area during Autumn/Winter so you would not get problem with rats.

Kestrels/Peregrines can sometimes predate tern colonies so you cannot cull them. Diversionary feeding works well for kestrels though to prevent them attacking colony.

Main avian predators would be corvids. Best solution for them is ladder/larsen traps.

Have you ever considered that all this Banging of large calibre rifles around the colony must be scaring the bejasus out of the birds and causing a lot of them to abandon their nests.

And even if the shooters are using sound moderators on their guns it makes only a small difference...you cannot silence such guns, the boom is still going to be horrifically loud, and especially at night.

Capercaillie · 30-08-2019 2:36pm

archer22 wrote: »

Have you ever considered that all this Banging of large calibre rifles around the colony must be scaring the bejasus out of the birds and causing a lot of them to abandon their nests.

And even if the shooters are using sound moderators on their guns it makes only a small difference...you cannot silence such guns, the boom is still going to be horrifically loud, and especially at night.

I assume they lamp foxes at distance from colony, so that would not be issue.

Bogwoppit · 30-08-2019 2:43pm

archer22 wrote: »

Have you ever considered that all this Banging of large calibre rifles around the colony must be scaring the bejasus out of the birds and causing a lot of them to abandon their nests.

And even if the shooters are using sound moderators on their guns it makes only a small difference...you cannot silence such guns, the boom is still going to be horrifically loud, and especially at night.

It certainly disturbs them a lot less than being eaten by a fox. They obviously breed successfully with the current shooting levels so the answer is obviously that it doesn’t bother them much.

Feisar · 30-08-2019 2:56pm

Twenty-three foxes? Doesn't sound like a lot. Ye should see some of the vermin returns from the gun clubs

Eddie B · 30-08-2019 3:01pm

I think after ten pages of conversation on this matter, it is fairly clear to see that finding an alternative to managing predator numbers is no easy task. I know that wildlife management does not sit well with a lot of people. Some even seeing it as barbaric and immoral. It's a horrible situation for many involved in trying to save these vulnerable species. They could do nothing, and let nature take its course, and the adaptable will thrive, and the vulnerable be no more, or they can do something to help them survive.

Yea they wish there was a better way, but for now there is not. Yes people call for the terns to be fenced in. Don't even know if that is possible. Even if it was, then what about all the other area's where vulnerable species breed. Do we put fences around them all? It's not possible. Where's the money gonna come from? Who's gonna keep them in working condition. They can't find enough volunteers as it is.

.243 · 30-08-2019 3:37pm

archer22 wrote: »

Have you ever considered that all this Banging of large calibre rifles around the colony must be scaring the bejasus out of the birds and causing a lot of them to abandon their nests.

And even if the shooters are using sound moderators on their guns it makes only a small difference...you cannot silence such guns, the boom is still going to be horrifically loud, and especially at night.

Sound moderators make a hell of a difference but not as quiet as Hollywood would portray,oppose to the train that trundles close by

Working class heroes · 30-08-2019 3:44pm

2011 wrote: »

Do I believe that sufficient numbers of people patrolling an inadequate fence can prevent foxes from crossing it? Yes I do.

Do I believe that BWI can get the people and funding required to make this happen for the time period required? Nope. No chance whatsoever.

I don’t accept that. I don’t accept all options were explored. Laziness/unwillingness is not an excuse. Once again I’ll state that I gave some suggestions earlier in the thread which were ignored. I believe the Tern season is over now? If so they have plenty of time to put in place alternative measures for next year.
Where there is a will there’s a way. I think in this case it’s the will that’s lacking.

endacl · 30-08-2019 3:45pm

No shortage of foxes. No harm.

Working class heroes · 30-08-2019 3:47pm

Capercaillie wrote: »

In the rare (not so rare in reality) that a fox would get into the Little Tern colony, it would generally kill most of chicks present! Better to not let that happen, you need (best practice) intensive fox control around colony. Foxes would only need to be culled during tern breeding season. You will get backfill of foxes into area during Autumn/Winter so you would not get problem with rats.

Kestrels/Peregrines can sometimes predate tern colonies, Raptors are protected so you cannot cull them. Diversionary feeding works well for kestrels though to prevent them attacking colony.

Main avian predators would be corvids. Best solution for them is ladder/larsen traps.

It’s either rare or it’s not.
Just because culling is an easier method does not make it “best practice”.

Working class heroes · 30-08-2019 3:47pm

Feisar wrote: »

Twenty-three foxes? Doesn't sound like a lot. Ye should see some of the vermin returns from the gun clubs

Foxes are not Vermin.

endacl · 30-08-2019 3:50pm

Working class heroes wrote: »

Foxes are not Vermin.

Not legally classified, but there are far too many of them.

Working class heroes · 30-08-2019 3:52pm

Eddie B wrote: »

I think after ten pages of conversation on this matter, it is fairly clear to see that finding an alternative to managing predator numbers is no easy task. I know that wildlife management does not sit well with a lot of people. Some even seeing it as barbaric and immoral. It's a horrible situation for many involved in trying to save these vulnerable species. They could do nothing, and let nature take its course, and the adaptable will thrive, and the vulnerable be no more, or they can do something to help them survive.

Yea they wish there was a better way, but for now there is not. Yes people call for the terns to be fenced in. Don't even know if that is possible. Even if it was, then what about all the other area's where vulnerable species breed. Do we put fences around them all? It's not possible. Where's the money gonna come from? Who's gonna keep them in working condition. They can't find enough volunteers as it is.

I’m sorry but the entirety of this post is just excusing laziness. If you have evidence that BWI have done all in their power to avoid culling please provide it. Then, as I’ve previously mentioned I would reluctantly accept it.

Working class heroes · 30-08-2019 3:55pm

endacl wrote: »

Not legally classified, but there are far too many of them.

Correct. As for the amount of them i suppose it depends on what side of the electric, fox repelling fence you sit.

Del.Monte · 30-08-2019 4:28pm

Here's a video which gives an insight into the project at Kilcoole but would somebody speak up for the unfortunate sand eels!

https://www.irelandswildlife.com/little-tern-conservation/

archer22 · 30-08-2019 5:36pm

On the subject of electric fences...the ones I have seen some farmers use have certainly not been expensive or sophisticated,made of just ordinary stakes and wire from the co-ops, usually they use 3 strands of wire and according to them (and they should know) they do the job fine.

You don't need 12 foot high sophisticated electric fences costing tens of thousands to keep back Foxes!.
Thats the kind of fencing you would require for keeping Elephants and Lions from straying out of a national park in Africa...not keeping back Foxes in Ireland.

Another point is when you are using an electric fence on wetlands the resulting shock from it will be even more severe..resulting in an even greater deterrent effect.

Little Tern Project - 23 foxes shot

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