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The glorious 12th

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    #392
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,832 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Brian Kennaway has been a member of the OO for 40 year and a Senior member of the Grand Lodge of Ireland for 25, in his book The Orange Order -A Tradition Betrayed he spills the beans as it were.
    What is his case against the powers-that-be in the Orange Order? Put simply, he believes that they have lost the plot. They are weakened by a sectarianism that few of them even acknowledge, are politically myopic to the point of stupidity, and more than a little ambivalent about matters such as the Belfast Agreement, the peace process and, it would seem, Loyalist violence. They are, in fact, a hidebound and unsophisticated bunch without vision or plan.
    Kennaway holds that as a result of its inept leadership the Order has become discredited and cut off from much of its normal support. It has not, however, split—that is something that he says it does not do—but it has severely haemorrhaged. Its membership stands at an all-time low (about 30,000); many of its most able are either disenchanted or have drifted away. There are few graduates in its ranks; to all intents and purposes it is a proletarian outfit, heavy with riff-raff, plus an argumentative, obscurantist, rural wing.
    It has no power, no influence, no prestige, and is spurned by the Protestant middle classes, who are embarrassed by its vapourings and antics. People in the know largely see it as part of the problem rather than part of the solution.
    The tenor of Kennaway’s remarks is that if the present leadership continues the Order will self-destruct or fade away.

    Good luck to the PR people for the OO on here in defending that!

    https://www.amazon.com/Orange-Order-Tradition-Betrayed/dp/0413775356


  • Options
    #393
    timthumbni
    Registered Users Posts: 4,845 ✭✭✭timthumbni


    munsterlegend wrote: »
    I was in Belfast a few times and very little flags in republican areas. However loyalist areas were full of them. It’s actually worse now with these parachute flags everywhere which really only serve to try and incite further.

    And what was the question here exactly?


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    #394
    Rubberchikken
    Registered Users Posts: 5,083 ✭✭✭Rubberchikken


    i think its good for every little organisation to have their special day.


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    #395
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 32,977 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    cgcsb wrote: »
    They've basically re-defined the province in their own minds into the area that they believe they can control. This mindset is notional really, and doesn't stand up to any logic, but is strangely given official status e.g. the 'Ulster Unionist Part', a strange concept given that if Donegal were in NI, unionism would have failed to secure a stormont majority many years ago and NI would be gone by now.

    There are other official examples; the 'RUC' (now renamed) and BBC radio Ulster (I think that's still around despite the logic fail).

    Or "Stand Up for the Ulster men" sung at Windsor Park during NI games.


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    #396
    munsterlegend
    Registered Users Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭munsterlegend


    timthumbni wrote: »
    And what was the question here exactly?

    It was an observation. Went to a lovely tourist town called Carrickfergus and a shame to see it so littered with flags and vile messages.


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    #397
    timthumbni
    Registered Users Posts: 4,845 ✭✭✭timthumbni


    munsterlegend wrote: »
    It was an observation. Went to a lovely tourist town called Carrickfergus and a shame to see it so littered with flags and vile messages.

    That’s where King Billy came to land. What were the messages?


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    #398
    munsterlegend
    Registered Users Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭munsterlegend


    timthumbni wrote: »
    That’s where King Billy came to land. What were the messages?

    Parachute regiment flags and soldier ‘f’. To me they are vile as taking pleasure from people who were murdered. And yes I know loyalist and republican areas do the same but Carrickfergus should be looking for people to visit without such flags.

    I hadn’t realized what a Unionist town it actually was until after and the concerted uvf efforts to get Catholics out.


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    #399
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,832 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    timthumbni wrote: »
    That’s where King Billy came to land. What were the messages?

    Why did the OO move so far away from what Billy was fighting for? He fought for civil and religious freedom, yet the OO is an exclusively Protestant organisation that sought to keep NI exclusively a Protestant state for Protestant people and managed to do that for decades to the detriment of those of a different faith. Genuine question.


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    #400
    NIMAN
    Registered Users Posts: 32,977 ✭✭✭✭NIMAN


    timthumbni wrote: »
    2- The psni are is a difficult spot here. It is not their place to take down flags on posts unless public safety is at risk. I think most sensible people have condemned the burning of flags on bonfires. KAT slogans are a disgrace but walk around the Lagan area and loads of KAH (kill all huns) graffiti about. (Maybe Tyrone gaa players have been around) Thats Belfast for you. Bigger cities tend to have a bigger collection of twats about imo.

    I find this one strange. Are the PSNI a normal police force assigned to carry out normal police duties like you'd see police so in Birmingham, London, Liverpool, Manchester?

    IF so, the ones in those cities are prone now to questioning people if they make dangerous remarks online or in the media.....the police in England even recently 'spoke' to Jo Brand after she joked about throwing battery acid on a politician instead of a milkshake.

    She was making a joke and was spoken to.

    And there are plenty of other examples.

    Yet in NI, you can fly swastika's, burn flags to antagonise your neighbours, burn tyres, ruin car parks, threaten staff etc etc, yet the police unfortunately can do nothing about it.


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    #401
    _blaaz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,646 ✭✭✭_blaaz


    NIMAN wrote: »
    Yet in NI, you can fly swastika's, burn flags to antagonise your neighbours, burn tyres, ruin car parks, threaten staff etc etc, yet the police unfortunately can do nothing about it.

    If you call it culture and try pass it off as a fun family day...it'll be all ok



    Personally i feel culturally enriched by seeing this....

    The reason the psni wont do anything about it....is they are drawn from same communities as its culturally ok to.do this


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    #402
    Fan of Netflix
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,167 ✭✭✭Fan of Netflix


    https://twitter.com/BBCMarkSimpson/status/1149666398253154305

    State of this Blueshirt prick Richmond. His family were in the OO in Cavan not suprised he's loving it. Having a great time while our national flag is burned. He should stay there.


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    #403
    timthumbni
    Registered Users Posts: 4,845 ✭✭✭timthumbni


    _blaaz wrote: »
    If you call it culture and try pass it off as a fun family day...it'll be all ok



    Personally i feel culturally enriched by seeing this....

    The reason the psni wont do anything about it....is they are drawn from same communities as its culturally ok to.do this

    Reason there are not more from catholic community in PSNI despite the massive effort is because Irish republicans whether in the Ira, the new Ira or the i can’t believe it’s not the Ira keep blowing either them up or their legs off. In the case of the Gaelic playing officer he accused members of his own gaa community around toome. Lovely people it seems.


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    #404
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,832 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    NIMAN wrote: »
    I find this one strange. Are the PSNI a normal police force assigned to carry out normal police duties like you'd see police so in Birmingham, London, Liverpool, Manchester?

    IF so, the ones in those cities are prone now to questioning people if they make dangerous remarks online or in the media.....the police in England even recently 'spoke' to Jo Brand after she joked about throwing battery acid on a politician instead of a milkshake.

    She was making a joke and was spoken to.

    And there are plenty of other examples.

    Yet in NI, you can fly swastika's, burn flags to antagonise your neighbours, burn tyres, ruin car parks, threaten staff etc etc, yet the police unfortunately can do nothing about it.

    You are getting at the nub of what still has to happen in northern Ireland NIMAN.

    I think that female police officer talked herself into a corner yesterday, it will be interesting to see if there are any repercussions with her 'We don't have the power' remarks. Because I think they would have plenty of 'powers' if they genuinely wanted to use them


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    #405
    _blaaz
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,646 ✭✭✭_blaaz


    timthumbni wrote: »
    Reason there are not more from catholic community in PSNI despote the massive effort is because Irish republicans whether in the Ira, the new Ira or the i can’t believe it’s not the Ira keep blowing either them up or their legs off. In the case of the Gaelic playing officer he accused members of his own gaa community around toome. Lovely people it seems.
    Meh....noones defending them


    Any chance of engageing with the subject matter instead of roaring "look over there....dem catholics baaaad" at anyone who questions what passes for culture/family fun days in NI?


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    #406
    munsterlegend
    Registered Users Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭munsterlegend


    timthumbni wrote: »
    Reason there are not more from catholic community in PSNI despite the massive effort is because Irish republicans whether in the Ira, the new Ira or the i can’t believe it’s not the Ira keep blowing either them up or their legs off. In the case of the Gaelic playing officer he accused members of his own gaa community around toome. Lovely people it seems.

    What is the percentage breakdown? Anyway police should act irrelevant of what community they are from. If I went out on the street down here and started burning the Union Jack the gardai wouldn’t be long picking me up.


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    #407
    timthumbni
    Registered Users Posts: 4,845 ✭✭✭timthumbni


    munsterlegend wrote: »
    What is the percentage breakdown? Anyway police should act irrelevant of what community they are from. If I went out on the street down here and started burning the Union Jack the gardai wouldn’t be long picking me up.

    No idea of the percentage. Look it up on google if you wish. I do know that the percentage of officers of catholic background has decreased since Irish republicans started threatening their families and blowing them up. (As they wanted a more equal police force) Surprising that.

    Yet the Garda allowed a parade of so called dissident republicans not long after they shot some wee girl in the head in Londonderry.


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    #408
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    Let's not forget that you get booted out of the Orange Order if you marry a Catholic but you don't if you torture/murder one.

    485128.png

    Shankill Butcher Eddie McIlwaine


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    #409
    Atoms for Peace
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,888 ✭✭✭Atoms for Peace


    cgcsb wrote: »
    I'd say for every nationalist flying flags, there's about 300 loyalists doing the same. Nationalist areas are much more low key, even the notorious Falls road only has a handful of permanent flags, mostly on memorials.

    The rebuplicans have a future to look forward to. The loyalist can only look back to their "glorious" past.


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    #410
    munsterlegend
    Registered Users Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭munsterlegend


    timthumbni wrote: »
    No idea of the percentage. Look it up on google if you wish. I do know that the percentage of officers of catholic background has decreased since Irish republicans started threatening their families and blowing them up. (As they wanted a more equal police force) Surprising that.

    Yet the Garda allowed a parade of so called dissident republicans not long after they shot some wee girl in the head in Londonderry.

    People have a right to march on a public street subject to certain conditions. However open acts of sectarianism would not be tolerated.

    Of course yes the vast majority would prefer they didn’t march.


  • Options
    #411
    Junkyard Tom
    Registered Users Posts: 10,117 ✭✭✭✭Junkyard Tom


    I think the way parading is being dealt with is the right way to do it. If history has shown anything in Ireland, north or south, it's that people don't like being told what not to do - it's something we all have in common I suppose.


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    #412
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,267 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    timthumbni wrote: »
    And what was the question here exactly?

    Bit self important of you to presume that this thread was some sort of Q&A session for yourself..


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    #413
    timthumbni
    Registered Users Posts: 4,845 ✭✭✭timthumbni


    munsterlegend wrote: »
    People have a right to march on a public street subject to certain conditions. However open acts of sectarianism would not be tolerated.

    Of course yes the vast majority would prefer they didn’t march.

    But yet if they support open acts of terrorism that is tolerated. Those Irish republicans they were supporting had murdered some wee girl in stroke city a short time earlier. Come on now.


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    #414
    timthumbni
    Registered Users Posts: 4,845 ✭✭✭timthumbni


    lawred2 wrote: »
    Bit self important of you to presume that this thread was some sort of Q&A session for yourself..

    Not at all. But he had responded and quoted my post.

    I actually went to a 12th parade today so thought it might be interesting for those interested to ask some genuine questions. Feel free not to look at the thread though. Thanks


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    #415
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,832 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    timthumbni wrote: »
    But yet if they support open acts of terrorism that is tolerated. Those Irish republicans they were supporting had murdered some wee girl in stroke city a short time earlier. Come on now.

    Technically you are wrong here.

    Saoradh, took responsibility for killing Lara McKee but apologised for it, as it was an accidental death, just like the British did on Bloody Sunday and many times since.

    I am not excusing either btw. before you go off on another tangent/deflection.


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    #416
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    cgcsb wrote: »
    They used to fly the South African flag also. Basically where there is apartheid and ethnic supremicism, they'll support it

    Explains the Confederate flag too so. Jesus they're fcuking backwards animals.


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    #417
    Yurt2
    Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    Fan of Netflix wrote: »
    https://twitter.com/BBCMarkSimpson/status/1149666398253154305

    State of this Blueshirt prick Richmond. His family were in the OO in Cavan not suprised he's loving it. Having a great time while our national flag is burned. He should stay there.

    Neale Richmond is outstanding at being mediocre and being boilerplate Fine Gael. I'm convinced he wasn't conceived but rather grown in a research lab at a secret FG blacksite in Monkstown.

    Watch him slither into Leinster House at the next election despite offering precisely nothing to the Irish public but his rugby clubhouse head and Tintin quiff.


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    #418
    FrancieBrady
    Registered Users Posts: 66,832 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    timthumbni wrote: »
    Not at all. But he had responded and quoted my post.

    I actually went to a 12th parade today so thought it might be interesting for those interested to ask some genuine questions. Feel free not to look at the thread though. Thanks
    You haven't answered this one.

    Why did the OO move so far away from what Billy was fighting for? He fought for civil and religious freedom, yet the OO is an exclusively Protestant organisation that sought to keep NI exclusively a Protestant state for Protestant people and managed to do that for decades to the detriment of those of a different faith. Genuine question.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110676163&postcount=399


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    #419
    timthumbni
    Registered Users Posts: 4,845 ✭✭✭timthumbni


    FrancieBrady wrote: »
    You haven't answered this one.

    Why did the OO move so far away from what Billy was fighting for? He fought for civil and religious freedom, yet the OO is an exclusively Protestant organisation that sought to keep NI exclusively a Protestant state for Protestant people and managed to do that for decades to the detriment of those of a different faith. Genuine question.

    https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=110676163&postcount=399

    Refer to post 371. Nothing more to add.


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    #420
    Omackeral
    Registered Users Posts: 32,956 ✭✭✭✭Omackeral


    JupiterKid wrote: »
    My Dutch relative (through my sister's marriage) lives and works in Ballymena - is married to a Ballymena man and has two small children - and has been told several times by locals to "go home" and "you're not welcome here."

    Delightful stuff indeed.

    The irony here is surreal, on a two fronts. Telling a man from an actual Orange country to go home and that he's not welcome... while they themselves could be perceived as, shall we say, visitors


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    #421
    munsterlegend
    Registered Users Posts: 6,143 ✭✭✭munsterlegend


    timthumbni wrote: »
    But yet if they support open acts of terrorism that is tolerated. Those Irish republicans they were supporting had murdered some wee girl in stroke city a short time earlier. Come on now.

    From what I could see they wanted an end to partition and 32 county state which in itself wouldn’t be a reason to stop the march. Those attending may well have knowledge on that murder but you can’t prove it unless they publicly stated it. People have a right to march but we are not giving them a national
    Holiday to do so.

    Stopping people protesting would lead to a very worrying situation even if you hate what people are marching about.


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