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China - the future

2

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  • #32
    The Satanist
    Closed Accounts Posts: 693 ✭✭✭The Satanist


    You’re all right with that, like, because it’s a race of people, and it’s a food.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBagN5En-N0



    :pac:


  • #33
    theguzman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭theguzman


    Trump is destroying them economically, he knows that he had to act now because they couldn't be left get too strong, he is avoiding a shooting war by waging an economic war. Take the enemy out before he gets stronger than you in an ancient tactic. America will eventually deploy Nuclear Weapons against China once they have hypersonic delivery methods perfected and the iron dome to keep out incoming ICBM's from China.


  • #34
    archer22
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭archer22


    theguzman wrote: »
    Trump is destroying them economically, he knows that he had to act now because they couldn't be left get too strong, he is avoiding a shooting war by waging an economic war. Take the enemy out before he gets stronger than you in an ancient tactic. America will eventually deploy Nuclear Weapons against China once they have hypersonic delivery methods perfected and the iron dome to keep out incoming ICBM's from China.

    Trump is doing nothing only destroying America in the long term...its American consumers who are paying his tariffs.
    And nobody in the world will ever again trust America because of its bullying sanctions and agreements breaking.
    America will never again be viewed as a trustworthy nation.


  • #35
    theguzman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭theguzman


    archer22 wrote: »
    Trump is doing nothing only destroying America in the long term...its American consumers who are paying his tariffs.
    And nobody in the world will ever again trust America because of its bullying sanctions and agreements breaking.
    America will never again be viewed as a trustworthy nation.

    America does what is in its best interests, everyone knows that? It is not the world police force.


  • #36
    1o059k7ewrqj3n
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,779 ✭✭✭1o059k7ewrqj3n


    theguzman wrote: »
    Trump is destroying them economically, he knows that he had to act now because they couldn't be left get too strong, he is avoiding a shooting war by waging an economic war. Take the enemy out before he gets stronger than you in an ancient tactic. America will eventually deploy Nuclear Weapons against China once they have hypersonic delivery methods perfected and the iron dome to keep out incoming ICBM's from China.

    Iron Dome is not an ABM (Anti-Ballistic Missile) defence system. The US and NATO lag behind Russia in ABM systems [Russia has A-135, going over to A-235], in fact they don't actually have one. Russia is ahead in hypersonic delivery also, ahead in SAM technology, ahead in ICBM technology. Integrated air defence systems are not the same as ABM systems because of the missile characteristics involved.

    Whatever Russia develops will end up being sold, maybe in a lesser level of excellence, to China - Su-27/35s, S-300s and so on. The US and NATO stood still in the late 90's and early 2000's because they thought that all wars would be low intensity insurgency/Iraq style conflicts. China and Russia recognise it wasn't and are ahead in some ways, but maybe behind in others, perhaps many others.

    If the US thought that nuking China before it got too big would work, it would have done so already.


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  • #37
    Richard Hillman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    I remember hearing a story about how they were installing a train system for one of their cities. They put out a tender for European producers, Germans I think, picked one and imported a train over for inspection. When they got the tram, they took the thing apart, piece by piece and documented it. Then they told the producers that they didn't want it.

    Little did they know that the went on to rebuild it themselves using the blueprint and didn't pay a penny.

    The same applies with all of those factories that are churning out Fake Football Jerseys. They couldn't give a **** about the intellectual properties because they know it brings income into China.


    China First.


  • #38
    Twenty Grand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭Twenty Grand


    There's a fantastic YouTuber called Serpentza who lives in China and documents the cultural differences.

    One of his main points is that, as a foreigner, he will never to equal to a Chinese citizen and will always be treated second class by the authorities. Even if a Chinese man starts a fight, he can't right back because to insult one Chinese person is to insult them all.


  • #39
    archer22
    Registered Users Posts: 2,116 ✭✭✭archer22


    Twenty Grand wrote: »
    There's a fantastic YouTuber called Serpentza who lives in China and documents the cultural differences.

    One of his main points is that, as a foreigner, he will never to equal to a Chinese citizen and will always be treated second class by the authorities. Even if a Chinese man starts a fight, he can't right back because to insult one Chinese person is to insult them all.

    He also has lots of good things to say about China.


  • #40
    ILoveYourVibes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,176 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    imme wrote: »
    What is the future of China.

    Will it keep growing at the rate or a slightly lesser rate than heretofore.

    It has decided to invest, (some say exploit Africa), in African countries. Selling technology, making people reliant on China.

    How long before it gets involved in conflict on a large scale or is forced into conflict.

    Will the Hong Kong climbdown be seen as the evolution of a more wobbly China.

    China installs 3/4 of a million elevators every year.

    How long before the elevator starts to stall.


    Life is still really hard for ordinary people there. I have friends from different parts of China. They say normal people struggle to buy food.

    Its like the boom lots of people get left behind.

    China doesn't like to get involved in conflict though.

    But they do have a huge concentration camp right now for muslims.


  • #41
    Twenty Grand
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,452 ✭✭✭Twenty Grand


    archer22 wrote: »
    He also has lots of good things to say about China.

    Oh plenty, sure he's living there and is married to a Chinese woman


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  • #42
    Franz Von Peppercorn II
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    Richard Hillman wrote: »
    I remember hearing a story about how they were installing a train system for one of their cities. They put out a tender for European producers, Germans I think, picked one and imported a train over for inspection. When they got the tram, they took the thing apart, piece by piece and documented it. Then they told the producers that they didn't want it.

    Little did they know that the went on to rebuild it themselves using the blueprint and didn't pay a penny.

    The same applies with all of those factories that are churning out Fake Football Jerseys. They couldn't give a **** about the intellectual properties because they know it brings income into China.


    China First.

    You got a link to the first story.

    Btw the US was a copy cat nation for 100 years.


  • #43
    tuxy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,983 ✭✭✭✭tuxy


    archer22 wrote: »
    He also has lots of good things to say about China.

    He's also a South African who thinks he is British.


  • #44
    Franz Von Peppercorn II
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,398 ✭✭✭Franz Von Peppercorn II


    Dravokivich wrote: »
    Foreign investment would usually invest in local resources locals can use and employ locally too. Chinese investment doesn't do that in Africa. They bring everything over on a needs basis, just to pull what they want.

    And yet the Africans seem happy enough.

    This article refutes your points.

    https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2018/09/three-myths-about-chinas-investment-in-africa-and-why-they-need-to-be-dispelled/


  • #45
    topper75
    Registered Users Posts: 5,942 ✭✭✭topper75


    archer22 wrote: »
    They can do things at a pace and on a scale that is just awesome to watch.
    Like a huge 1300 million strong team pulling together.

    And contrary to popular belief in the west they actually have a good government (as governments go) ...the Chinese government can plan long term 30 years or so ahead.

    Western governments are intrinsically unstable can only plan short term 4 or 5 years ahead and must try and please everybody to get reelected.Plus in a western system you usually get around half or more of the elected politicians doing nothing only trying to undermine the ones who are in power.

    Could see it the opposite way too though.

    The 5-year terms here are a safety valve. Enraged at the crash? Put the other shower in. Repeat the absurd pantomime ad infinitum, but enjoy an underlying civil stability.
    No such option in China. Rage and disappointment at a burst debt bubble will go all the way and bring the house down.


  • #46
    knipex
    Registered Users Posts: 2,018 ✭✭✭knipex


    Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »
    I’d say the US or the EU is more likely to implode.

    Ireland should get a piece of that belt and road initiative.

    Not with anything like the potential catastrophic results.

    There is a huge new middle class that have been kept quiet and from pushing from more personal freedom by the promise of more, more and more. The Chinese middle classes have taken consumerism to a whole new level.

    At the same time you have millions in virtual indentured servitude, living, working shopping and dieing in a huge compounds.

    The level of corruption is in a scale that has to be seen to be believed. There has been some attempt to curb this and admittedly it has met with some success but very very limited. Money is pouring out of the country, feeding casino's and banks of the region. Chinese citizens are buying property, all over the region and in into Europe and the US, they are buying up gold, jade jewellery, art, cars, anything that will turn cash into assets that can be hidden, traded and is necessary liquidated.

    China even now is not one bland nation, anyone that travels around china will hear multiple languages, diets, customs, etc. Look under the veneer.

    Government owned corporations are drowning in debt, individual stated are drowning in dept, both from downright corruption, incompetence and government prodding to boost the economy during the last recession,


  • #47
    fly_agaric
    Registered Users Posts: 4,784 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »
    I’d say the US or the EU is more likely to implode.

    Ireland should get a piece of that belt and road initiative.

    Funny thing is such actions (each EU country chasing after their piece of "free" investment off China - nothing is ever free) will make the EU far more likely to implode in future!
    Really should be a sort of common EU policy on relationships with these giants (US, China) in a lot more areas but unfortunately that looks unlikely to happen.


  • #48
    Dick phelan
    Registered Users Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭Dick phelan


    Currently living in China so will throw in my observations. It's amazing the rate of speed they build things, i'v seen entire metro lines built in only a few months, their technology is surpassing the west in many ways, the phones they make, use of contactless payment etc is ahead of the game. Part of it is motivated by the need to control, for example they invest more in domestic security than any overseas ventures. Secondly i honestly don't see the communist party falling anytime soon, Xi Jinping is probably the most powerful leader they've had since Mao. They have some serious problems tho.

    They have a real issue with demographics, an ageing population and not enough young people to take care of them, the one child policy has come back to bite them big time. Also their young people do not want to have many children much the same as western nations, in fact it's quite common to hear people say they want no kids whatsoever. Also for years China could grow at massive human and social, environmental costs, now you have a generation who are used to have a comfortable life, they won't be willing to work crazy hours, put up with terrible air and water pollution etc. Also there is an element of a house of cards going on here, the banking system has some seriously shady practices and a lot of the growth has been built on infrastructure and building, however a lot of the building isn't viable, when you go through the countryside here you'll see tons of dams, massive bridges, multilane highways and the amount of practically empty housing blocks and industrial units you see empty is massive.

    The last things against them is the fact that practically everyone hates them, all their neighbors dislike them Japan, India as well as , the US, the EU etc, this means while China may but up barriers to stop Western products in China the same could and has happened on the opposite side. If you think about it how many Chinese brands do people use? Sure it say's made in China on the label but most of the brands are US, German, Japanese etc. For example i had never heard of companies like Taobao or JD before i moved here, yet they are massive in China, however globally everyone uses Amazon for example. They make and sell more cars than anyone yet it's almost all for domestic market and indeed even within China theirs a belief that if you can afford it you should buy the international brand be it with cars, beauty products, clothes etc. They are certainly making serious gains but it's not all as rosy as you might think.


  • #49
    JohnnyFlash
    Registered Users Posts: 7,055 ✭✭✭JohnnyFlash


    I’d be over that neck of the woods a few times a year. China is in recession at the moment, and is struggling to keep up the momentum of attracting farmers and small town folk into the cities so they can contribute to the consumer economy. The Communist Party over there are becoming increasingly communist again in their outlook.

    There’s also huge human rights abuses taking place there at the moment under the flag of socialism. The Ungars are being put into prison camps in extraordinary numbers, with the excuse being that they are enemies of the socialist revolution started under Mao.


  • #50
    _Brian
    Registered Users Posts: 18,464 ✭✭✭✭_Brian


    Twenty Grand wrote: »
    There's a fantastic YouTuber called Serpentza who lives in China and documents the cultural differences.

    One of his main points is that, as a foreigner, he will never to equal to a Chinese citizen and will always be treated second class by the authorities. Even if a Chinese man starts a fight, he can't right back because to insult one Chinese person is to insult them all.

    Fairness allot of Irish treat every non white person as second class, I don’t think that makes them very different to us.


  • #51
    conorhal
    Registered Users Posts: 6,981 ✭✭✭conorhal


    Steyr 556 wrote: »
    China's rise is good for multipolarity. Anyway what did the west think was going to happen, sending all its jobs and industry there? That China would just be another Asian country ready to debase itself and its people so the elite could benefit eg Marcos and the Philippines or Suharto and Indonesia?

    No doubt the elite (the inner party members of the Chinese Communist Party) have done exceptionally well, but they also have ambitions on a grand strategic scale. Chinese civilizations goes back hundreds if not thousands of years and pumping out cheap runners is not the end game.

    People forget the 'historical context' around how this all came about, largely in the wake of all that post 1989 sunny optimism that Francis Fukuyama was writing about in his infamous article 'The End of History'.
    (Cribbing from the NewYorker here)
    Fukuyama’s argument was that, with the imminent collapse of the Soviet Union, the last ideological alternative to liberalism had been eliminated. Fascism had been killed off in the Second World War, and now Communism was imploding. In states, like China, that called themselves Communist, political and economic reforms were heading in the direction of a liberal order.
    History had reached it's goal and representative government, free markets, and consumerist culture would dominate.

    Simply put, there was a lot of sunny optimism and utopian thinking going on in those heady days, and a belief that once there was a McDonald's in Red Square and Tiananmen square all would be right with the world!
    The attitude was that all China needed to become part of the liberal order was access to the open market.

    Well those that forget their history are doomed to repeat it.
    History doesn't simply stop, but parties do, and the dot com bust and 9/11 proved that once and for all. Now people are beginning to question the value of rampant globalism.


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  • #52
    fly_agaric
    Registered Users Posts: 4,784 ✭✭✭fly_agaric


    Dick phelan wrote: »
    If you think about it how many Chinese brands do people use? Sure it say's made in China on the label but most of the brands are US, German, Japanese etc.

    I suppose there's a few of their big companies/brand names that would at least get some name recognition from some people in the West now. Huawei, Xaoimi, Lenovo, Wanda, Alibaba, Volvo (probably is not associated with China I suppose but afair one of their companies owns it), that TikTok social media application I heard of but know nothing about as am too old + have no kids...


  • #53
    beejee
    Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭beejee


    Historically "China" has barely existed for any meaningful length of time. It is a loose conglomeration of many feudal provinces that can only exist if it is held together with an inhumane iron grip.

    Geopolitically forecasting in terms of resource it is in deep doo doo. The main arteries for outsource and insource are outside its control and you will see this shrink further as the alliance between japan and USA confounds them.

    It has fallen apart multiple times, and will fall apart again with all the pomp of a wet fart. There may be a bit of violent sharting but it wont last long.

    And good riddance.


  • #54
    4068ac1elhodqr
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,586 ✭✭✭4068ac1elhodqr


    Reckon the Chinese lads have their eyes on Aussieland, afterall with only 25million, mostly around the far S&E coast, there's plenty of space.
    More importantly plenty of mining oportunities.


  • #55
    King of Kings
    Registered Users Posts: 1,695 ✭✭✭King of Kings


    _Brian wrote: »
    Fairness allot of Irish treat every non white person as second class, I don’t think that makes them very different to us.

    I dont know the intentions of the poster but i thought it wasa good policy.
    Europe are the only ****nuts that roll out the red carpet to any johnny come lately.
    The chinese ( and others like japanese) arent so stupid to grant guests the same status as locals...in fact they mock the wests sjw ways..they even have a term for it "baiuzo".


  • #56
    cuppa
    Registered Users Posts: 538 ✭✭✭cuppa


    Look up China's ghost cities on youtube its crazy. Something on the scale of 50 empty cities and 60 million empty houses


  • #57
    Richard Hillman
    Registered Users Posts: 12,033 ✭✭✭✭Richard Hillman


    JohnnyFlash wrote: »
    There’s also huge human rights abuses taking place there at the moment under the flag of socialism. The Ungars are being put into prison camps in extraordinary numbers, with the excuse being that they are enemies of the socialist revolution started under Mao.

    Or that they've learned from the destruction caused in Africa, Europe, the Middle East, Russia, South East Asia, pretty much everywhere Islam has gona and they have astutely said "Yeah, not for us mate".

    China First. Not the UN and their madey upey laws


  • #58
    BlackandGreen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 310 ✭✭BlackandGreen


    China happens to be an interest of mine. While it has a great history, the past 50 or so years and in particular the past 10ish years have really shown just how ugly China is.


    Oh the list is never ending.



    Uighur genocide. (Horrendous how this has been let slide internationally)

    African imperialism.
    Hong Kong/Taiwan meddling.
    Meddling in many other countries affairs i.e South China sea issues, Tibet, Australia, India, Canada etc etc .

    Totalitarian capitalist state masqueraded as socialism

    Human rights abuses

    Tech spying and huawei.

    Gigantic class/wealth divide.
    Social credit system where mostly poor people are punished and excluded from basic things such as being able to ride public transport, access healthcare.
    Traditional Chinese medicine aka quackery.
    Mass cheating in university and academia internationally.

    Catastrophically gigantic levels of pollution.

    "Face" culture that is detrimental. i.e Their international culture of "we are never wrong it is you that is wrong and if you stand up to us we will throw out toys of out of the pram." Which also applied to many aspects of Chinese life.

    Chinese tourists/tour buses wrecking the place and having no respect.

    Political corruption beyond Irish politicians wildest dreams.

    Mass consumption and consumerism thats so unethical.
    This is tip of the iceberg stuff.



    You'd have to have your head totally buried in the sand to not realise China has so many issues. The gob****es who subscribe to the whole "shur in 50 years time we'll all be speaking chinese isnt it great" need their head examined.
    In the current historical timeline China is a big threat to the planet.



    inb4 I hear your racist now father, jabs at how my electronics come from China etc. The usual boring rhetoric from the ignorant.



    No. I started off with an interest in China and it's history in secondary school many years ago and have done a lot of reading and research into it since. It's a wild ride. Been there, been to Hong Kong (so sad to see how it's being destroyed by china from the inside), been to other Asian countries. Studied the history and am a keen follower of China politics, culture and international policy.


    Quite frankly. As a super power they scare me more than any other country.



    Here's some interesting things to watch/read that only scratches the surface.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/resources/idt-sh/China_hidden_camps


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1a-QpyF7rNc


  • #59
    theguzman
    Registered Users Posts: 2,081 ✭✭✭theguzman


    cuppa wrote: »
    Look up China's ghost cities on youtube its crazy. Something on the scale of 50 empty cities and 60 million empty houses

    We can send our homeless to China, a grand bunch of lads they'll fix it.


  • #60
    NewbridgeIR
    Registered Users Posts: 3,696 ✭✭✭NewbridgeIR


    As someone who buys a lot of music and physical media, have always regarded China with contempt.
    No respect for copyright. High level of fake products.
    The ultimate bullsh*t country.

    Japan = total opposite.


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  • #61
    1o059k7ewrqj3n
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,779 ✭✭✭1o059k7ewrqj3n


    NewbridgeIR wrote: »
    As someone who buys a lot of music and physical media, have always regarded China with contempt.
    No respect for copyright. High level of fake products.
    The ultimate bullsh*t country.

    Japan = total opposite.

    China has been the source of countless innovations over hundreds of years.

    Many of those inventions became the foundation of Western imperialism such as gunpowder. Mongols learned it from the Chinese and was introduced to Europe by them. Hundreds of years later the Europeans use gunpowder to exploit the Chinese and push drugs on them.

    Much of what we would traditionally accept as Western inventions - the printing press and the revolution in the dissemination of knowledge that followed - was first done in China.

    Maybe they should have copyrighted this stuff, kept the patents for themselves. In any case, if you aren't buying pirated material, there's nothing to worry about. It's hardly like the West isn't cheating in similar circumstances.


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