If the Green Party got into government are they mad

GreeBo · 17-06-2019 1:59pm

Nobelium wrote: »

So what is the actual percentage , is even 49/50 at best not a fraction ? and not a minority ? Tell the truth.

49% renewable would be a majority.
The rest would be gas, coal, oil, peat & wood.

average_runner · 17-06-2019 1:59pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Since 2011/12 the government has provided incentives to buy electric cars. They have provided free charging for electric cars.

Is it 1 or 2 years they have given money off tolls. For a company car it is 0% BIK.

All of this is available and the impact of electric cars is minimal when you compare to other countries in Europe.

What exactly is going to change that people now are suddenly going to swap from diesel to electric? everyone is aware of the 2020 date which the government signed up to, that was told to everyone how many years ago?

"electric cars is minimal when you compare to other countries in Europe."

And why is this? Is it because we are already taxed to the hilt so can't afford new electric cars?

Or is it because they are cheaper in Europe?

Or is it because Europe has a way better transport system so less reliance on cars?

At the end of day we can talk about 2020, but if the people can't afford we will go back to the ways we did in the 80's with everyone having old cars!!!

GreeBo · 17-06-2019 2:03pm

blanch152 wrote: »

None of those are facts, they are opinions.

In relation to the first one, improvements in battery storage for home generation will change the equation.

doesnt even need to be stored at home, if the ESB stores the renewable energy (like Turlough Hill) then we all benefit from it.

Berserker · 17-06-2019 2:04pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

Trump got into power by promising to bring jobs back. 10 million is tiny if you compare what would happen if a Intel or HP or IBM pulled out of Ireland. Each of those companies have how many employees?

Last thing Ireland needs is pi**ing off the American's, love him or hate him but Trump is the president of America

Or pharma companies, if the NHS is brought into a trade deal between the UK and US, post Brexit. That €10m is pennies when you look at the bigger picture.

From the CSO : The largest category of exports was Medical and pharmaceutical products. Exports of these goods accounted for a third (33%) of all exports, or €46,318 million in 2018.

Macha · 17-06-2019 2:10pm

skooterblue2 wrote: »

https://fxssi.com/top-10-most-valuable-companies-in-the-world

Not an oil company between them.

Let's try a metric that goes beyond the inflated share price of tech companies, ie actual revenue:

http://fortune.com/global500/

5 of the top 10 companies are oil companies: Sinopec, CNP, Shell, BP and Exxonmobil.

Turbohymac wrote: »

Again in theory yes the government are correct to try to reduce cow emissions.. but it has been decided that heavy trucks etc will not be able to use battery power EV.. only small passenger vehicles and even if all our power requirements were being generated by wind etc . The electric cars are still Extremely limited to range..cannot be fitted with hitches.. no towing of light trailers caravans etc...GROSSLY overpriced to even tempt the greenest of people to make the change currently and sacrifice a lot more than emissions by purchasing an EV car..
Very small Hyundai electric car is starting off at 39k euros.. you'd have a lot of change left over if you were to buy a much larger and better specced..well capable of towing etc fossil fuelled vehicle..
Currently only a tiny selection of electric vehicles available from only 3 or 4 manufacturers..
And not a single thought about public transport..larger cars Van's etc etc etc..

But sure well all be grand cos well ban sale of fossil fuel vehicles by 2030.. and sure well all be grand driving around in leafs.and hyundai's..

Typical of our craggy island government promise to stick the locomotive into reverse from her current full speed ahead mode..and a few small not fit for many users purpose.. electric cars can replace everything..

Good luck with the dream

I don't even know where to start with this post...So many errors and myths.

GreeBo wrote: »

49% renewable would be a majority.
The rest would be gas, coal, oil, peat & wood.

Actually today Richard Bruton is expected to pump up that target to 70% renewables in our electricity mix by 2030.

In Ireland's case, most of the rest will be gas and some (hopefully) sustainable wood. Moneypoint will be shut down by 2025 as will BnaM's peat plants. There's hardly any oil left in Ireland's power system.

LeinsterDub · 17-06-2019 2:11pm

average_runner wrote: »

Explain that to the companies in the city centre and see what happens.

You don't tell people to get across a danger river without providing a way of getting across it.

What about that bridge? Eh no it's too high
What about that ferry? Eh no it's too slow
What about that hovercraft ? Eh no it's too noisy
What about that zip wire ? Eh no it's too much fun
What about that foot tunnel. Eh no it's too deep

70% of people in the city centre already get there by Bus , Train , Tram, Bike or foot.

LeinsterDub · 17-06-2019 2:13pm

Jupiter Mulligan wrote: »

While I greatly appreciate your kind attempt to carry out my thinking processes for me, I reckon that I'm probably marginally better at doing it than you are, if the above example is anything to go by.

So many thanks for now and rest assured that I'll definitely be in touch should I feel the need to call upon your helpful service again.

An chance you could use your now legendary ability to think and tell us what option you have available to you?

maccored · 17-06-2019 2:14pm

Berserker wrote: »

Why don't you buy a hybrid or an electric car? That should reduce your carbon tax costs for your commute. Also, ten million is buttons in the context of these infrastructure projects. The consultancy firms would hoover that up in a month.

how about because I havent got 40 grand?

average_runner · 17-06-2019 2:14pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

What about that bridge? Eh no it's too high
What about that ferry? Eh no it's too slow
What about that hovercraft ? Eh no it's too noisy
What about that zip wire ? Eh no it's too much fun
What about that foot tunnel. Eh no it's too deep

70% of people in the city centre already get there by Bus , Train , Tram, Bike or foot.

Have you got a link for that stat? Be good to have

demfad · 17-06-2019 2:14pm

skooterblue2 wrote: »

Youre right lets force China and America and india to change by not buying their clothes, cars and electrical goods and medicines.

"Maritime shipping transports 90 percent of the goods traded around the world by volume. Moving large amounts of goods such as oil, computers, blue jeans and wheat across oceans drives the global economy, making it cheaper and easier to buy almost anything.

But hauling goods around by sea requires roughly 300 million tons of very dirty fuel, producing nearly 3 percent of the world's carbon dioxide emissions, giving the international maritime shipping industry roughly the same carbon footprint as Germany."

It will happen-possibilities include:

-Massive levy on this dirty fuel
-Goods available at home will be prohibited from being bought from far away places.
-Eventual technological solutions but relatively very costly.

The result will be goods will be manufactured closer to where they are consumed. Manufacturing will be 'regional' or 'local' not globalized.

(Obviously the dirty fuel ship WTO 'Global' Britain should stay in port.

https://phys.org/news/2018-12-cargo-ships-emitting-boatloads-carbon.html

maccored · 17-06-2019 2:15pm

facehugger99 wrote: »

Yeah - that €10 million should provide a great country-wide public transport system.

it would be 10 million more than they are spending now

maccored · 17-06-2019 2:15pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You do realize how many jobs are in Ireland because of American companies?

Trump got into power by promising to bring jobs back. 10 million is tiny if you compare what would happen if a Intel or HP or IBM pulled out of Ireland. Each of those companies have how many employees?

Last thing Ireland needs is pi**ing off the American's, love him or hate him but Trump is the president of America

yeah - lets keep doffing the oul cap :rolleyes:

LeinsterDub · 17-06-2019 2:16pm

Turbohymac wrote: »

Again in theory yes the government are correct to try to reduce cow emissions.. but it has been decided that heavy trucks etc will not be able to use battery power EV.. only small passenger vehicles and even if all our power requirements were being generated by wind etc .

I don't know why I'm bothering as you'll just move the goal posts again but here you go
http://www.emoss.nl/en/electric-vehicles/full-electric-truck/

LeinsterDub · 17-06-2019 2:17pm

average_runner wrote: »

Have you got a link for that stat? Be good to have

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/more-than-half-of-all-trips-into-dublin-now-on-public-transport-36934154.html

maccored · 17-06-2019 2:20pm

we do all realise that to make electric cars (nevermind to currently power them) we need to take more and more natural minerals from the earth? Theres an interesting UK based analysis here - https://www.nhm.ac.uk/press-office/press-releases/leading-scientists-set-out-resource-challenge-of-meeting-net-zer.html

The challenges set out in the letter are:

The metal resource needed to make all cars and vans electric by 2050 and all sales to be purely battery electric by 2035. To replace all UK-based vehicles today with electric vehicles (not including the LGV and HGV fleets), assuming they use the most resource-frugal next-generation NMC 811 batteries, would take 207,900 tonnes cobalt, 264,600 tonnes of lithium carbonate (LCE), at least 7,200 tonnes of neodymium and dysprosium, in addition to 2,362,500 tonnes copper. This represents, just under two times the total annual world cobalt production, nearly the entire world production of neodymium, three quarters the world’s lithium production and at least half of the world’s copper production during 2018. Even ensuring the annual supply of electric vehicles only, from 2035 as pledged, will require the UK to annually import the equivalent of the entire annual cobalt needs of European industry.

The worldwide impact: If this analysis is extrapolated to the currently projected estimate of two billion cars worldwide, based on 2018 figures, annual production would have to increase for neodymium and dysprosium by 70%, copper output would need to more than double and cobalt output would need to increase at least three and a half times for the entire period from now until 2050 to satisfy the demand.

Energy cost of metal production: This choice of vehicle comes with an energy cost too. Energy costs for cobalt production are estimated at 7000-8000 kWh for every tonne of metal produced and for copper 9000 kWh/t. The rare-earth energy costs are at least 3350 kWh/t, so for the target of all 31.5 million cars that requires 22.5 TWh of power to produce the new metals for the UK fleet, amounting to 6% of the UK’s current annual electrical usage. Extrapolated to 2 billion cars worldwide, the energy demand for extracting and processing the metals is almost 4 times the total annual UK electrical output

Energy cost of charging electric cars: There are serious implications for the electrical power generation in the UK needed to recharge these vehicles. Using figures published for current EVs (Nissan Leaf, Renault Zoe), driving 252.5 billion miles uses at least 63 TWh of power. This will demand a 20% increase in UK generated electricity.

Challenges of using ‘green energy’ to power electric cars: If wind farms are chosen to generate the power for the projected two billion cars at UK average usage, this requires the equivalent of a further years’ worth of total global copper supply and 10 years’ worth of global neodymium and dysprosium production to build the windfarms.

Solar power is also problematic – it is also resource hungry; all the photovoltaic systems currently on the market are reliant on one or more raw materials classed as “critical” or “near critical” by the EU and/ or US Department of Energy (high purity silicon, indium, tellurium, gallium) because of their natural scarcity or their recovery as minor-by-products of other commodities. With a capacity factor of only ~10%, the UK would require ~72GW of photovoltaic input to fuel the EV fleet; over five times the current installed capacity. If CdTe-type photovoltaic power is used, that would consume over thirty years of current annual tellurium supply.

Both these wind turbine and solar generation options for the added electrical power generation capacity have substantial demands for steel, aluminium, cement and glass.

The co-signatories, like Prof Herrington are part of SoS MinErals, an interdisciplinary programme of NERC-EPSRC-Newton-FAPESP funded research focusing on the science needed to sustain the security of supply of strategic minerals in a changing environment. This programme falls under NERC's sustainable use of natural resources (SUNR) strategic theme.

LeinsterDub · 17-06-2019 2:22pm

maccored wrote: »

we do all realise that to make electric cars (nevermind to currently power them) we need to take more and more natural minerals from the earth? Theres an interesting UK based analysis here - https://www.nhm.ac.uk/press-office/press-releases/leading-scientists-set-out-resource-challenge-of-meeting-net-zer.html

That's why we need to start banning cars from city centres. An EV does nothing for congestion

maccored · 17-06-2019 2:23pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

That's why we need to start banning cars from city centres. An EV does nothing for congestion

instead they want to tax electric bikes

Water John · 17-06-2019 2:23pm

There is already one electric transport ship in Norway. The're have been tractors and industrial loaders trialled as well. Obviously widespread feasability is reliant on improved battery tech.
There are also reports of improved and easier hydrogen storage. It's amazing what R & D can come up with when it becomes a necessity.

James Brown · 17-06-2019 2:24pm

The trouble with the greens is they are a concept. As environmentalism gains popularity so do they but their last showing with the FF government didn't give much hope to their ability to either govern or hold one of the civil war parties to task.

We should give incentives and tax breaks to alternative energy industries and consumers.

Shefwedfan · 17-06-2019 2:32pm

average_runner wrote: »

Because they are expensive and not everyone can afford to buy a new car.
And we also don't know the health concerns in relation to the batteries in the car?

Quick question, how long does a battery last for and how bad is it for the environment when you get a new battery?

As pointed out above people have done huge mileage in electric cars without massive degradation...

Try and buy a battery out of a crashed electric car, they are extremely hard to get and if you do manage to get your hands on one it will cost afortune.

Do you also wonder why the amount of Electric cars been sold in Ireland is on a huge increase?

The car itself is not worth much, the battery can be stripped out, broken up and sold at huge profits in Europe for Solar PV. You could put massive mileage on car, strip out battery and large sections can be re-used for solar PV.

The dead units, well they can be reused...

GreeBo · 17-06-2019 2:32pm

maccored wrote: »

how about because I havent got 40 grand?

How far is your commute?
There are options for under 40 grand.

Shefwedfan · 17-06-2019 2:33pm

maccored wrote: »

yeah - lets keep doffing the oul cap :rolleyes:

How long would 10 million last if 10,000 people got stuck on the unemployment list if American companies pulled out.....

Plus all the people supplying canteens etc,

LeinsterDub · 17-06-2019 2:33pm

Matt Barrett wrote: »

The trouble with the greens is they are a concept. As environmentalism gains popularity so do they but their last showing with the FF government didn't give much hope to their ability to either govern or hold one of the civil war parties to task.

We should give incentives and tax breaks to alternative energy industries and consumers.

Surely the Greens held them to task on a number of environmental issues as they got a number of policies enacted many of which we still have now . Their failure was hold them to task on banking and housing

Shefwedfan · 17-06-2019 2:34pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

That's why we need to start banning cars from city centres. An EV does nothing for congestion

As I said already swapping a million diesel cars for a million electric cars is not the answer.

Swapping a million cars and replacing them with public transport if the option.

is_that_so · 17-06-2019 2:42pm

demfad wrote: »

"Maritime shipping transports 90 percent of the goods traded around the world by volume. Moving large amounts of goods such as oil, computers, blue jeans and wheat across oceans drives the global economy, making it cheaper and easier to buy almost anything.

But hauling goods around by sea requires roughly 300 million tons of very dirty fuel, producing nearly 3 percent of the world's carbon dioxide emissions, giving the international maritime shipping industry roughly the same carbon footprint as Germany."

It will happen-possibilities include:

-Massive levy on this dirty fuel
-Goods available at home will be prohibited from being bought from far away places.
-Eventual technological solutions but relatively very costly.

The result will be goods will be manufactured closer to where they are consumed. Manufacturing will be 'regional' or 'local' not globalized.

(Obviously the dirty fuel ship WTO 'Global' Britain should stay in port.

https://phys.org/news/2018-12-cargo-ships-emitting-boatloads-carbon.html

Some operators are looking at different ways along with a commitment to being carbon neutral by 2050.

https://www.greenmatters.com/p/shipping-company-maersk-carbon-neutral

maccored · 17-06-2019 2:49pm

GreeBo wrote: »

How far is your commute?
There are options for under 40 grand.

but why should I change a decent car now? Can I wait until it's ready to be scrapped? you are suggesting that the answer is go get yourself in debt to buy an electric car because the government cant be arsed to invest in proper public transport - nevermind its increasingly looking like electric cars are a very short term answer

maccored · 17-06-2019 2:50pm

Shefwedfan wrote: »

How long would 10 million last if 10,000 people got stuck on the unemployment list if American companies pulled out.....

Plus all the people supplying canteens etc,

and americans will do that because why again? you are engaging in silly talk, saying we need to please everyone or else they might all run away and leave us.

James Brown · 17-06-2019 2:54pm

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Surely the Greens held them to task on a number of environmental issues as they got a number of policies enacted many of which we still have now . Their failure was hold them to task on banking and housing

A one issue party are no use, if that's all they can offer.

Shefwedfan · 17-06-2019 2:55pm

https://www.thejournal.ie/climate-action-plan-4685603-Jun2019/?fbclid=IwAR27HkBS5Ns086vyX6rhUchlDkcriYBinXgeNnp0O42Kj6q43GQJxLmFdMo

Some of the stuff on the way

Chips Lovell · 17-06-2019 2:56pm

maccored wrote: »

instead they want to tax electric bikes

They don't. Nothing has changed on that front. There were some stories in the news recently about them cracking down on electric bikes and scooters that didn't meet the regulations for electric bikes. But the law hasn't changed and is unlikely to change soon. You can still buy an electric bike and not have it taxed.

maccored wrote: »

but why should I change a decent car now? Can I wait until it's ready to be scrapped?

Actually, a scrappage scheme to encourage uptake is part of the proposals.

Introduction of a car scrappage scheme in 2020 to encourage the increased take-up of electric vehicles.

If the Green Party got into government are they mad

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