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Copyright question

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  • 20-05-2019 5:55pm
    #1
    am i bovvered
    Registered Users Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭


    A business has been set up in France with a registered name in English ;
    French Wine School
    This business did not realise that an existing business in France with the registered name ;
    École du Vin de France
    This business never trades under the English translation. It’s website is translated and even then it uses the French name.

    Is this breaking copyright law ?

    Thanks


Comments

  • Options
    #2
    nuac
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,769 Mod ✭✭✭✭nuac


    Mod
    Leaving open for discussion subject to forum rule on legal advice


  • Options
    #3
    donspeekinglesh
    Registered Users Posts: 1,861 ✭✭✭donspeekinglesh


    It might be a breach of trademark law, but not copyright.


  • Options
    #4
    am i bovvered
    Registered Users Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭am i bovvered


    donspeekinglesh wrote: »
    It might be a breach of trademark law, but not copyright.

    Oh, sorry, I probably should have said trademark law ?


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    #5
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    They are different marks, and have different meanings when translated into the same language; so no IP law issue


  • Options
    #6
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,241 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    While the names may be different, is there a risk of passing-off?
    am i bovvered wrote: »
    French Wine School
    École du Vin de France
    Is this a French exam or a law exam?

    French Wine School Ecole du vin français
    French Wine Vin français
    Wine School École du vin
    French School École française

    École du Vin de France Wine School of France
    École du Vin Wine School
    Vin de France French wine
    École de France School of France


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  • Options
    #7
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,056 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    Yes, it looks very much like passing-off. Or would, if the conduct complained of took place in Ireland.

    I have no idea what French law has to say about passing off-like behaviour, or how it deals with it. But I'd be surprised if there wasn't some issue here that needed to be addressed. No offence to the assembled luminaries, but boards.ie may not be the best source of informed commentary about the IP law of France.


  • Options
    #8
    Mr. Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 9,798 ✭✭✭Mr. Incognito


    No actionable case here.

    They are not operating in the same territory.

    Theres no risk of confusion.

    Trademark law has an exemption for persons with an established local trade.


  • Options
    #9
    brian_t
    Registered Users Posts: 6,654 ✭✭✭brian_t


    Mr. Incognito wrote: »
    No actionable case here.

    They are not operating in the same territory.

    Theres no risk of confusion.

    Trademark law has an exemption for persons with an established local trade.
    According to the OP both businesses are in France.


  • Options
    #10
    am i bovvered
    Registered Users Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭am i bovvered


    Victor wrote: »
    While the names may be different, is there a risk of passing-off?

    Is this a French exam or a law exam?

    French Wine School Ecole du vin français
    French Wine Vin français
    Wine School École du vin
    French School École française

    École du Vin de France Wine School of France
    École du Vin Wine School
    Vin de France French wine
    École de France School of France

    There is no French or law exam.
    Both schools are credited by a wine organisation in London.
    My question relates to the law and if a direct translation
    of a brand violates trademark law ?

    Thanks


  • Options
    #11
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,056 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    In the OP you talk about the names under which two businesses are registered.

    Now you ask questions about trademarks.

    Which is it? Has either of these businesses registered a trademark and, if so, exactly what trademark has been registered?


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  • Options
    #12
    Claw Hammer
    Registered Users Posts: 6,160 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    I would think it is actionable under the rules of doing your own homework.


  • Options
    #13
    am i bovvered
    Registered Users Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭am i bovvered


    Peregrinus wrote: »
    In the OP you talk about the names under which two businesses are registered.

    Now you ask questions about trademarks.

    Which is it? Has either of these businesses registered a trademark and, if so, exactly what trademark has been registered?

    Yes, sorry.
    The question is about a trademark.
    ‘École du vin de France’ is trademarked and my business is called The French Wine School

    All my clients are English speaking so I never researched the name in the French language.
    There was no intent to copy.

    Both business are in France.
    My question is, what’s your thoughts regarding breaking trademark law when using a translated name ?

    Thanks


  • Options
    #14
    micky jammy delahunty
    Registered Users Posts: 65 ✭✭micky jammy delahunty


    am i bovvered wrote: »
    Yes, sorry.
    The question is about a trademark.
    ‘École du vin de France’ is trademarked and my business is called The French Wine School

    There trademark appears to be in direct translation, The School of Wine, of France. Whereas yours is The French Wine School.....
    All my clients are English speaking so I never researched the name in the French language.
    There was no intent to copy.

    You kind of should research these things. Legal and other costs are not things you'd need or like.
    Both business are in France.
    My question is, what’s your thoughts regarding breaking trademark law when using a translated name ?


    It depends. A court might decide that assembling the words, school, French, wine, in any combination isn't a violation of a trademark, in the way you have University College Dublin, and Dublin College University.

    But, I think you could be screwed because the translations look like this:

    École du vin de France <- Theirs
    École du vin français <- Yours

    The basic rule in these situations is, would a reasonable person confuse the two businesses. In English at a glance they look different, but at a glance in French they really do not. They're in France, same market, or least same market location, they look like they have a very rock solid case. Like you never get away with calling a French company Pomme Ordinateurs, even without Apple having to trade mark that formulation.

    The general rule is something called the Spectrum of Distinctiveness
    http://gbr.pepperdine.edu/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Spectrum-of-Distinctiveness-550x279.jpg


    Académie du vin Français, you might be able to wing it, if no one is currently trading under it. (which will also come up higher in alphabetic listings)


  • Options
    #15
    am i bovvered
    Registered Users Posts: 1,102 ✭✭✭am i bovvered


    Thanks for such a comprehensive response.
    I agree, looks like it’s my responsibility to fix it.


    micky jammy delahunty wrote: »
    There trademark appears to be in direct translation, The School of Wine, of France. Whereas yours is The French Wine School.....



    You kind of should research these things. Legal and other costs are not things you'd need or like.




    It depends. A court might decide that assembling the words, school, French, wine, in any combination isn't a violation of a trademark, in the way you have University College Dublin, and Dublin College University.

    But, I think you could be screwed because the translations look like this:

    École du vin de France <- Theirs
    École du vin français <- Yours

    The basic rule in these situations is, would a reasonable person confuse the two businesses. In English at a glance they look different, but at a glance in French they really do not. They're in France, same market, or least same market location, they look like they have a very rock solid case. Like you never get away with calling a French company Pomme Ordinateurs, even without Apple having to trade mark that formulation.

    The general rule is something called the Spectrum of Distinctiveness
    http://gbr.pepperdine.edu/wp-content/uploads/2011/01/Spectrum-of-Distinctiveness-550x279.jpg


    Académie du vin Français, you might be able to wing it, if no one is currently trading under it. (which will also come up higher in alphabetic listings)


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