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07-08-2018, 22:14   #31
DaCor
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Originally Posted by end of the road View Post
in what way do they meet the definition of commercially sensitive material. i actually wouldn't think they do
and one shouldn't have to put in a FOI. if the contract did turn out to be commercially sensitive then the NTA could simply say so and state why. instead they are keeping quiet.
Sigh, ok, I'll try one last time

Ever hear the expression of "you don't ask, you don't get".

The NTA are not obliged to do anything unless the request for the contract is submitted through FOI. They have a legal responsibility to respond to every single FOI request and respond within a limited time frame. They also need a rock solid justification to refuse a FOI otherwise it will be overturned on appeal and they get flogged for not adhering to FOIAL legislation

An FOI request is as easy as sending an email, takes 5 mins.

If someone insists that the NTA should make the contract public but can't be arsed to actually submit a request for a copy of it please tell me how a copy of that contract is supposed to end up in the public domain.

Apart from press releases or govt publications, how do you think govt information ends up in the public domain? TD's, Councillors, Journalists, regular punters etc, all use the tool, FOI
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07-08-2018, 22:17   #32
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Already pointed out to you on the go ahead thread how to submit a FOI request.

However, these contracts meet the definition of commercially sensitive material so are unlikely to ever be released
Thank you for the point....I must keep it in mind.

I am quite interested in The definition of commercially sensitive,particularly in the context of Public Service Obligation contracts.

Is there a single definition,or can one pick from a menu of them ?

With the €172,000,000 total now in the Public Domain,I suggest it will be difficult for the NTA to keep it a State Secret for too much longer,but the really basic question is WHY would they see the need to ?

I am confident that Go Ahead would be every bit as happy with the NTA releasing it into the Public Domain,as they were with the Singaporean LTA's speedy disclosures.
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07-08-2018, 23:01   #33
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Sigh, ok, I'll try one last time

Ever hear the expression of "you don't ask, you don't get".

The NTA are not obliged to do anything unless the request for the contract is submitted through FOI. They have a legal responsibility to respond to every single FOI request and respond within a limited time frame. They also need a rock solid justification to refuse a FOI otherwise it will be overturned on appeal and they get flogged for not adhering to FOIAL legislation

An FOI request is as easy as sending an email, takes 5 mins.

If someone insists that the NTA should make the contract public but can't be arsed to actually submit a request for a copy of it please tell me how a copy of that contract is supposed to end up in the public domain.

Apart from press releases or govt publications, how do you think govt information ends up in the public domain? TD's, Councillors, Journalists, regular punters etc, all use the tool, FOI
Excellent clarity ar last,if if a tad tetchy

IF the NTA has the self-confidence in it's Contractual procedures,then there need be NO requirement for "Tools" to access that procedure,whether by Joe Soap or President Higgins

Since the NTA remains for the moment,a Public Authority,under the aegis of the Dept and Minister for Transport,it is to be hoped that,as it is spending Publicly Provided money,it can therefore be open and transparent as to the process.

I would further suggest that advocating for the primacy of the "Don't ask-Don't get" principle in the disbursement of Public Funds,is far too close to supporting the last decision of an Irish Government Minister to adhere to it's strictures.....It should be kept very much to the fore that the Irish State,and it's then minister for Heath Michael Noonan were totally intent on maintaining "Don't ask-Don't tell" whilst Bridgid McCole was suffering an agonising death at it's own hands.

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/lett...-enemy-1.93343

I'm sorry,but you can go through all the "Simple FOI procedures" you like,but I remain of the strong opinion that ALL of the NTA's Contracts should be placed on the Public Record ASAP after their agreement.

I can,for example go on to the NTA website and download the FULL Direct Award Contracts for Bus Atha Cliath and Bus Eireann as well as the Tendered Services operated by M&A Coaches....

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/pub...hes/contracts/

Whartons Travel......https://www.nationaltransport.ie/pub...page/contracts

In any truly functional,above board process,in which both sides had confidence,the Contract Particulars would have been on the Official Record the day after the "grace period" ended.

Failure to do this,instills suspicion,and a perception of malpractice amongst ordinary citizens and learned observers alike.

Last edited by AlekSmart; 07-08-2018 at 23:09.
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08-08-2018, 01:34   #34
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Wholeheartedly agree that the path of "open by default" should be the norm and the structures of the Irish government are heading to that, guided by the OGP process for the last number of years.

However, there will ALWAYS be some information retained for any number of reasons which are subject to challenge under FOI

As for whether or not commercially sensitive information is required to be released, see here https://foi.gov.ie/faqs/what-informa...get-access-to/

As to what is defined as commercially sensitive information, see here http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2...nacted/en/html

Now, whether the GA contract is different to all others and should be kept from the public can be resolved by spending a few minutes submitting the request to see what happens.

Or not, entirely up to you however there is literally no other route that will get the NTA to release the contract. None. They can happily ignore every single request to release the contract until it comes in the form of an FOI request.

Anyway, I'll leave it there.
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08-08-2018, 14:53   #35
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Yeah because the starting wage of a DB bus driver at 5k more than a college educated teacher makes perfect sense, because they drive buses.
I'm not getting you here. My recollection, is that their own union sacrificed the earning potential of new teachers, to keep experienced teachers more favorably remunerated.
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08-08-2018, 17:48   #36
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Wholeheartedly agree that the path of "open by default" should be the norm and the structures of the Irish government are heading to that, guided by the OGP process for the last number of years.

However, there will ALWAYS be some information retained for any number of reasons which are subject to challenge under FOI

As for whether or not commercially sensitive information is required to be released, see here https://foi.gov.ie/faqs/what-informa...get-access-to/

As to what is defined as commercially sensitive information, see here http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2...nacted/en/html

Now, whether the GA contract is different to all others and should be kept from the public can be resolved by spending a few minutes submitting the request to see what happens.

Or not, entirely up to you however there is literally no other route that will get the NTA to release the contract. None. They can happily ignore every single request to release the contract until it comes in the form of an FOI request.

Anyway, I'll leave it there.
Before you go,your point about there always being some information kept secret is argueable in itself,however,my point is that the NTA appears unwilling to release ANY information.

My stance is that there is NOTHING about a Public Bus Service contract,which could remotely be regarded as a trade secret or otherwise.

The continued refusal of the NTA to make their PSO Contract available for scrutiny,makes any attempt at comparison largely impossible,other than by Freemasonry or Tarot Reading !!
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16-08-2018, 22:25   #37
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the stranglehold the unions currently have can't and won't be smashed.
Yes, it can and this is the beginning of it.

If a company is not delivering due to strikes, they should not be considered at the next contract renewal.
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17-08-2018, 00:07   #38
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[QUOTE=salonfire;107809482]Yes, it can and this is the beginning of it.[QUOTE=salonfire;107809482]

it can't and this isn't the beginning of it, as there will be a union within the companies who tender for routes. at least the multi-nationals.

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If a company is not delivering due to strikes, they should not be considered at the next contract renewal.
can't be done as eventually there would be no companies left because they will all be effected by a strike at some stage.
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17-08-2018, 00:16   #39
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[quote="end of the road;107810495"][QUOTE=salonfire;107809482]Yes, it can and this is the beginning of it.
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it can't and this isn't the beginning of it, as there will be a union within the companies who tender for routes. at least the multi-nationals.



can't be done as eventually there would be no companies left because they will all be effected by a strike at some stage.

So workers are going to strike themselves out of existence then are they?

I see plenty of private transport companies operating for years without industrial relations stoppages.
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17-08-2018, 02:25   #40
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So workers are going to strike themselves out of existence then are they?
clearly not hence my responce to your point.

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I see plenty of private transport companies operating for years without industrial relations stoppages.
sure, but that's no guarantee against them happening in the future.
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17-08-2018, 09:50   #41
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clearly not hence my responce to your point.
.
Exactly, now you get it. The stranglehold unions have on the Transport system has been severely diminished and continues to be so with each passing year.
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