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The Man responsible for the Titanic's sinking.

2

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 3,858 ✭✭✭Church on Tuesday


    Hoop66 wrote: »
    I remember the National Geographic issue when they first got pics of the wreck, it was incredible. I pored over it for weeks.

    I highly recommend Dr. Robert Ballad's Titanic: Last Great Images for anyone interested in detailed pictures of the wreck.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,453 ✭✭✭valoren


    Was it B.A Baracus

    Let's Face it, he would have been B.A. Brrracus had he sailed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,109 ✭✭✭Minime2.5


    If the exact same thing happened today in the same place would the vast majority of people have survived


  • Registered Users Posts: 39,366 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    Yes and No.

    It's a good film,the best out there, but it doesn't portray the splitting of the ship and other details.

    There were many eye witness accounts who stated the ship separated before it sank, which at the time was meet with a kind of ridicule.

    Only with the discovery of the wreck was that assertion finally given credence.

    Well that's the most glaring mistake and as you say there were more than a few survivors who said it at the investigations that they say the ship break apart. You'd think that if you were in that awful situation a ship the size of titanic breaking apart would be a think you'd remember clearly. I think the lights had gone out on the ship at that point so maybe it wasn't noticed.

    There is difference in survivors recollections of many major events of the night. The song being played by the band wasn't unanimous. Where captain smith was last seen is a debate. There was a member of the crew who saw Thomas Andrews staring at the picture of Plymouth sound in the smoking room but the time is off by around twenty minutes. There was a huge noise heard which it was stated were the engines breaking loose and crashing through the ship which has been proven wrong.

    The position of the ship was wrong. And then of course there is the issue of the Californian and captain Stanley lord. I don't know about that ship and flares and what they didn't see or did see.


  • Registered Users Posts: 271 ✭✭Stephen Gawking


    Take a 'bough' sir.

    Pretty stern appraisal of a difficult situation.






    Stern


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,276 ✭✭✭Hoop66


    this is riveting

    Any more jokes like that and I'll keel you.


  • Administrators, Business & Finance Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,901 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Toots


    Van Doozy wrote: »
    :confused:

    Time stamps in the video, not the actual time of the night.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,453 ✭✭✭valoren


    My grandfather was alive when he saw the Titanic in Belfast. He told people it would sink but everyone ignored his warnings yet he continued to give people those warnings. He kept on trying to warn people it was going to sink until he was eventually escorted from the cinema.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,810 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    It was a moonless night too ... made it all the darker ... good thread btw, gets my mind of things..


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,166 ✭✭✭Still waters


    Of course the issue with the RIVETERS and the political/ sociological climate at the time in Belfast was never discussed in any film - too hot a topic. The specialised tradesmen and labourers who built the boat in BELFAST allegedly had seams of the interior and exterior bulkheads that were purposefully not riveted together correctly - another major contributor to the failure of the bulkheads and leter confirmed after footage of the wreck on the seafloor was made.

    Pertty low to blame one man in an idle afternoon even if he is long dead, for such a catastrophic event and all thise deaths.

    Transatlantic record anyone?
    Or do people just watch films and take their history from hollywood these days.

    Not to mention the illegal trawler crew and its captain that did not stop to pick up survivors - I’d be putting a lot of weight on them. etc

    Why didn't they rivet the lanels correctly?

    And tell us more about the illegal trawer and its crew, I've never heard of them and I've a few books read on the titanic


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,359 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    While there are all sorts of details, the sinking of the Titantic comes down to one thing, sailing too fast at night. A slightly lower speed at night would likely have meant that we would never have heard of the ship. The Titanic was the second a series of ships, the Olympic was the first one and H&W were proud of it, the Titanic was largely the same and would not be notable if it hadn't sank.

    The desire to speed wasn't Murdoch's decision.
    In April, the hours of real darkness are only about 8 hours, one third of the day, it simply wasn't worth it since you could have gone faster in daylight.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    Titanic is one of the most fascinating tragedies of all time and probably one of the most studied.

    As for the 'man responsible', I don't think there is one in this instance, but it is human nature to look for someone to blame I suppose. For me Titanic's sinking was a series of factors, such as:

    1. The fire in the coal bunker which raged on for several days and weakened the bulkheads.

    2. Steaming at near full speed in an ice-field and ignoring some of the warnings that were sent, especially the last one where Philips told the Californian to 'Keep out, shut up, I'm working Cape Race'. Although to be fair I believe these guys were retained by Marconi and under serious pressure to get their work done.

    3. The shortage of lifeboats, which was perfectly legal at the time.

    4. There being no requirement for ships to keep a 24hr wireless service, if there was perhaps the Californian would have come to the rescue as their operator had already gone to bed by the time Titanic started sending out distress signals.

    5. Speaking of which the crew of the Californian while they can't be blamed for the tragedy, they were negligent in their duty. 2nd Officer Herbert Stone saw the rockets and reported them to captain Stanley Lord who quite dismissively chalked them down as 'company signals'. This ship was likely only 10 miles away or so but chose to brush off the signals rather than investigate them.

    6. Weather conditions, it was a freakishly calm night for the north atlantic, by all accounts the ocean was as smooth as glass with no moon either to light up their surroundings. If the sea had of been a bit choppier, maybe the look outs would have seen the water breaking at the iceberg and spotted it a bit earlier.

    7. Bad luck, in fairness this played a part to, it generally does in these tragedies, wrong place wrong time.

    Finally as for Murdoch, to be honest I've never really considered him responsible, he was just doing what he was told in maintaining speed and heading and found himself in the wrong place at the wrong time. He done his best to avoid the berg and done his best to load the lifeboats (over half the people saved were loaded in by Murdoch).

    Like many others he lost his life that night and will never get the chance to tell his story.


  • Registered Users Posts: 39,366 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    Titanic is one of the most fascinating tragedies of all time and probably one of the most studied.

    As for the 'man responsible', I don't think there is one in this instance, but it is human nature to look for someone to blame I suppose. For me Titanic's sinking was a series of factors, such as:

    1. The fire in the coal bunker which raged on for several days and weakened the bulkheads.

    2. Steaming at near full speed in an ice-field and ignoring some of the warnings that were sent, especially the last one where Philips told the Californian to 'Keep out, shut up, I'm working Cape Race'. Although to be fair I believe these guys were retained by Marconi and under serious pressure to get their work done.

    3. The shortage of lifeboats, which was perfectly legal at the time.

    4. There being no requirement for ships to keep a 24hr wireless service, if there was perhaps the Californian would have come to the rescue as their operator had already gone to bed by the time Titanic started sending out distress signals.

    5. Speaking of which the crew of the Californian while they can't be blamed for the tragedy, they were negligent in their duty. 2nd Officer Herbert Stone saw the rockets and reported them to captain Stanley Lord who quite dismissively chalked them down as 'company signals'. This ship was likely only 10 miles away or so but chose to brush off the signals rather than investigate them.

    6. Weather conditions, it was a freakishly calm night for the north atlantic, by all accounts the ocean was as smooth as glass with no moon either to light up their surroundings. If the sea had of been a bit choppier, maybe the look outs would have seen the water breaking at the iceberg and spotted it a bit earlier.

    7. Bad luck, in fairness this played a part to, it generally does in these tragedies, wrong place wrong time.

    Finally as for Murdoch, to be honest I've never really considered him responsible, he was just doing what he was told in maintaining speed and heading and found himself in the wrong place at the wrong time. He done his best to avoid the berg and done his best to load the lifeboats (over half the people saved were loaded in by Murdoch).

    Like many others he lost his life that night and will never get the chance to tell his story.
    The bulkhead may have played a part but I think it's given too much weight.

    Well that reply to the Californian was in part because the machine had been broken the day before so they were making up the back log of telegrams they were sending. It's another what if because if they hadn't been swampt it's likely the ice warning may have gotten to the captain and maybe things would have turned out differently.

    I think titanic had more lifeboats than was required at the time given its tonnage which is how it was calculated. There was provision for more but it wasn't required or wanted so there weren't enough.

    The tragedy may have had a good outcome in that after there was a requirement for a 24 hour wireless at sea.

    The Californian and its place in the this event are weird to me. Yes the crew as whole aren't to blame but Stanley lord till the day he died was trying to fix his reputation. Wasn't it always the case the the crew told him of the rockets but didn't push the issue ?

    Yeah poor murdooch was in the wrong place at the wrong time. If it wasn't him on the bridge at the time of the accident it would have been someone else.


  • Registered Users Posts: 39,366 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    Why didn't they rivet the lanels correctly?

    And tell us more about the illegal trawer and its crew, I've never heard of them and I've a few books read on the titanic

    I've never heard of a trawler either but there is a theory that there was a third boat in the area that night and it's what both titanic and Californian say and not each other. As I said it's a theory but the crew of the Californian said they say a large ship not a trawler which would surely be easily distinguishable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,359 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Itssoeasy wrote: »
    The Californian and its place in the this event are weird to me. Yes the crew as whole aren't to blame but Stanley lord till the day he died was trying to fix his reputation. Wasn't it always the case the the crew told him of the rockets but didn't push the issue ?


    The point about the rockets that struck me was that there seemed to scope for interpretation of the rockets, which meant that there didn't seem to be a clear signalling code for rockets, akin to SOS or CQD. Like an international convention that 3 red rockets meant distress and come immediately.

    Was there no such convention?


  • Registered Users Posts: 39,366 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    https://www.titanicinquiry.org/downloads.php

    If anyone wants to read about the British and American inquiries to the disaster the link above has them. I used to have them in book form but a burst can of coke in a bag wrecked them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 39,366 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    The point about the rockets that struck me was that there seemed to scope for interpretation of the rockets, which meant that there didn't seem to be a clear signalling code for rockets, akin to SOS or CQD. Like an international convention that 3 red rockets meant distress and come immediately.

    Was there no such convention?

    There were company rockets but titanic was firing white rockets not red ones.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,322 ✭✭✭JustAThought


    Why didn't they rivet the lanels correctly?

    And tell us more about the illegal trawer and its crew, I've never heard of them and I've a few books read on the titanic

    It was to do with the political forces and loyalty in the dockyards and amongst the different ( trades/working) crews in the shipyard at the time. The workers could not afford to strike or lose their jobs (look what happened an organised strike with huge support and milomentum at the time with Jim Larkin ) but up north it was extremely volatile at the time - you’d need to google your IPP, Home Rule , Redmond and Carson history to get a sense of it. Suffice to say sime of the crews dis not complete the job properly in whole lengths of the Titanic where the rivets were not finished securely - a firm of industrial sabotage/ political protest that had an impact on the stability and ability of the T to withstand the forces of that night.

    The boats that spotted the rockets and eventually came to the rescue of the Titanic both swore in the inquest/ investigation that there had been a third trawler much closer to the lifeboats in the area that night. She was fishing illegally. Many survivors swore and testified to seeing a white trawlers light in the vacinity - both captains of the carpathia and the california also said there had been another boat - a fishing boat or trawler at least an hours distance from them. It remains one of the hidden maritime mysteries who this boat and her crew was. Had they gone to the pightbiats rescue many of those who frize to death in the lifeboats would have been saved. She has never been identified.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,322 ✭✭✭JustAThought


    I had a nerdy interest in this years ago but am in the wrong house to identify the books! Suffice to say that when i visited the Titanic museum a few years back with my sterling clenched in my hand I was devastated at the quality of the books in their giftshop - I was planning on doing a whole lot of new nerdy book purchasing - turned out I had better ones at home and a much greater selection!!!! One I loved had the complete inventory lists for the maiden voyage in it - a bit OCD but amazing reading!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    Itssoeasy wrote: »
    The bulkhead may have played a part but I think it's given too much weight.

    I agree completely, I believe it was a factor in that it probably weakened the structure and possibly took some attention away from other day to day duties, but most of the other major factors are more relevant in my view.
    Itssoeasy wrote: »
    Well that reply to the Californian was in part because the machine had been broken the day before so they were making up the back log of telegrams they were sending. It's another what if because if they hadn't been swampt it's likely the ice warning may have gotten to the captain and maybe things would have turned out differently.

    Yes I remember reading that they were swamped and under pressure so I understand Philip being abrupt. I think it was just a frustrated young man who made another error in a long string of errors which caused the accident.
    Itssoeasy wrote: »
    I think titanic had more lifeboats than was required at the time given its tonnage which is how it was calculated. There was provision for more but it wasn't required or wanted so there weren't enough.

    The tragedy may have had a good outcome in that after there was a requirement for a 24 hour wireless at sea.

    I think nobody is at fault for the above 2 issues really, it was very standard practice at the time not to carry enough lifeboats for everyone as the thinking was to make ships so safe that you don't need lifeboats, and yes I believe the Titanic actually carried more lifeboats than required by law.

    Same goes for the lack of a 24hr wireless service, this was not required under law.

    If the Titanic tragedy done any good at all, at least it corrected these 2 issues, pity it took such a horrible tragedy though!
    Itssoeasy wrote: »
    The Californian and its place in the this event are weird to me. Yes the crew as whole aren't to blame but Stanley lord till the day he died was trying to fix his reputation. Wasn't it always the case the the crew told him of the rockets but didn't push the issue ?

    I think the role of the Californian and Stanley Lord is one of the most fascinating parts of this tragedy and I still don't fully know how I feel about it. Again I certainly wouldn't blame them for the tragedy, they were not in charge of the Titanic end of, but they turned a blind eye to a nearby ship that was listing and firing rockets, by any standards that is negligent.

    I think undoubtedly 2nd Officer Stone was weak in the whole thing, I'd like to believe I'd have been more inquisitive in his position and pressed the issue, but that's very easy to say in hindsight. Same goes for Captain Lord, but if nothing else would curiosity not have stirred him out of bed?
    Itssoeasy wrote: »
    Yeah poor murdooch was in the wrong place at the wrong time. If it wasn't him on the bridge at the time of the accident it would have been someone else.

    I agree completely, I've never really considered him responsible, he did his best in a horrible situation, whereas many others could have been frozen with fear/shock.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,223 ✭✭✭Sam Quentin


    If you look closely at the cctv footage of the sinking,. it's obvious to anyone with a brain that there is 2 controlled explosions immediately as it just gently brushes of the iceberg....also I heard from a good source that 2 days before the sinking a drone was seen at the very spot where the Titanic struck the 'iceberg'!?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    Itssoeasy wrote: »
    https://www.titanicinquiry.org/downloads.php

    If anyone wants to read about the British and American inquiries to the disaster the link above has them. I used to have them in book form but a burst can of coke in a bag wrecked them.

    Haha bloody coke!!

    I used to read through inquiries online a few years ago, some great information in there in fairness. It was turned into a short film for tv in 2012 called 'Save Our Souls: The Titanic Inquiry' which was quite good, it was basically the testimony of the Californian crew during the British enquiry.

    Also just on the topic, a decent book to read regarding the role of both the Carpathia and the Californian is 'The Other Side Of The Night: The Carpathia, the Californian, and the Night the Titanic was Lost' by Daniel Allen Butler.

    It focuses on the role of both those ships on the night, well worth a read for those who are interested.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,166 ✭✭✭Still waters


    It was to do with the political forces and loyalty in the dockyards and amongst the different ( trades/working) crews in the shipyard at the time. The workers could not afford to strike or lose their jobs (look what happened an organised strike with huge support and milomentum at the time with Jim Larkin ) but up north it was extremely volatile at the time - you’d need to google your IPP, Home Rule , Redmond and Carson history to get a sense of it. Suffice to say sime of the crews dis not complete the job properly in whole lengths of the Titanic where the rivets were not finished securely - a firm of industrial sabotage/ political protest that had an impact on the stability and ability of the T to withstand the forces of that night.

    The boats that spotted the rockets and eventually came to the rescue of the Titanic both swore in the inquest/ investigation that there had been a third trawler much closer to the lifeboats in the area that night. She was fishing illegally. Many survivors swore and testified to seeing a white trawlers light in the vacinity - both captains of the carpathia and the california also said there had been another boat - a fishing boat or trawler at least an hours distance from them. It remains one of the hidden maritime mysteries who this boat and her crew was. Had they gone to the pightbiats rescue many of those who frize to death in the lifeboats would have been saved. She has never been identified.

    Great answer, thank you


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,359 ✭✭✭Charles Babbage


    Itssoeasy wrote: »
    There were company rockets but titanic was firing white rockets not red ones.


    But was there no set of flares that ships carried pre wireless which said I'm in distress, come immediately or sooner?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,707 ✭✭✭Bobblehats


    If you look closely at the cctv footage of the sinking,. it's obvious to anyone with a brain that there is 2 controlled explosions immediately as it just gently brushes of the iceberg....also I heard from a good source that 2 days before the sinking a drone was seen at the very spot where the Titanic struck the 'iceberg'!?

    There are many theories surrounding the Titanic’s demise, none of which have proven conclusive but one thing remains it was a sinking of epic proportions as one of the greatest tragedies to plague our collective psyche which for now will remain....unexplained


  • Registered Users Posts: 39,366 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    I have a book where the news papers of the day have been reproduced in full and it's an amazing time capsule of the world in the week leading up to the sinking and after it. I also have reproduction of posters made for the first sailing and eerily enough the first sailing from New York on April 20th, 1912 which obviously never happened.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,242 ✭✭✭AllForIt


    If that upstart Jack Dawson didn't distract the ships officials from their duties it might have been a whole different story.


  • Registered Users Posts: 39,366 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    Haha bloody coke!!

    I used to read through inquiries online a few years ago, some great information in there in fairness. It was turned into a short film for tv in 2012 called 'Save Our Souls: The Titanic Inquiry' which was quite good, it was basically the testimony of the Californian crew during the British enquiry.

    Also just on the topic, a decent book to read regarding the role of both the Carpathia and the Californian is 'The Other Side Of The Night: The Carpathia, the Californian, and the Night the Titanic was Lost' by Daniel Allen Butler.

    It focuses on the role of both those ships on the night, well worth a read for those who are interested.

    Was that the film where it implies some coordination between the crew of the Californian. Coordination in regards to the testimony at the inquiry.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,160 ✭✭✭Huntergonzo


    Itssoeasy wrote: »
    Was that the film where it implies some coordination between the crew of the Californian. Coordination in regards to the testimony at the inquiry.

    That's the one.

    It doesn't exactly paint the Californian crew in a great light and it is quite dramatic in parts, but sure look that's tv, it's gonna happen.

    A large chunk of the dialog was taken directly from the actual British enquiry though which was good.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 39,366 ✭✭✭✭Itssoeasy


    That's the one.

    It doesn't exactly paint the Californian crew in a great light and it is quite dramatic in parts, but sure look that's tv, it's gonna happen.

    A large chunk of the dialog was taken directly from the actual British enquiry though which was good.

    Yeah I've seen it then. No it implies a very serious allegation against the crew.

    I'd love to know exactly where the lifeboats from the titanic went after the were stored in a loft in New York. There is a suggestion that some of them were used to increase the life boats on the Olympic when it needed more life boats to comply with the new regulations.


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