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Termination Letter from landlord with multiple properties

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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,969 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    It's worth noting that making a false statutory declaration is also a criminal offense. The landlord could be liable for a fine of up to €3000 on each count.

    How many daughters needing accommodation does the landlord have? It might be worth checking if the same daughter was used in each statutory declaration of if the names are different checking if they really exist.

    Any solicitor knowingly enabling a client to make a false statutory declaration is not only liable to disciplinary action by the law society but is also engaging in a criminal offense.

    Where are you getting this from?

    Maximum financial penalty for a false statutory declaration, is £50.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1938/act/37/enacted/en/print#sec6


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,340 ✭✭✭FishOnABike


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Where are you getting this from?

    Maximum financial penalty for a false statutory declaration, is £50.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1938/act/37/enacted/en/print#sec6

    Part 1, section 9 of the Residential Tenancy Act -
    9.—(1) A person guilty of an offence under this Act shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €3,000 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or both.
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2004/act/27/section/9/enacted/en/html#sec9


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,969 ✭✭✭✭Dav010


    Part 1, section 9 of the Residential Tenancy Act -
    9.—(1) A person guilty of an offence under this Act shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding €3,000 or imprisonment for a term not exceeding 6 months or both.
    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2004/act/27/section/9/enacted/en/html#sec9

    Giving an invalid notice is not a criminal offence, and you said making a false statutory declaration carries a €3000 fine if convicted on each count, it doesn’t.

    Again, acting on an invalid notice by evicting someone is a offence, giving invalid notice isn’t. The only notice the LL is acting on is the notice relating to needing for a family member.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    Great minds think alike, Vita! I did that earlier this week. Got 2 statements already and will have 1 witness at hand.
    ...and here is a real beauty - "the daughter is moving in" excuse has been used more than once this year. The solicitor is in serious trouble for knowingly participating in this sh*t and signing on statutory declarations for multiple tenants using the very same excuse. I will make sure the Law Library and The Bar of Ireland are aware of this. Of course, Revenue too, Dublin City Council and any other body that is suggested to me.

    I think I accidentally uncovered a huge property scam that has been operating for years and Media will hear about it soon.

    I wish LL didn't play dirty with me (and others) and treat people fair.

    ... and finally - the RTB dispute has been now filed!

    If you can, get a good solicitor to represent you at the hearing, because you can be sure he will have one and probably a barrister.
    Dig up as much information as you can on him and the "daughter" especially if he has pulled this ruse on others.
    Make sure to preserve all communication between him and you.
    Copy and Print everything off and save to a safe file, especially text messages.
    Best of luck.


  • Registered Users Posts: 225 ✭✭Curious1002


    K.Flyer wrote: »
    If you can, get a good solicitor to represent you at the hearing, because you can be sure he will have one and probably a barrister.
    Dig up as much information as you can on him and the "daughter" especially if he has pulled this ruse on others.
    Make sure to preserve all communication between him and you.
    Copy and Print everything off and save to a safe file, especially text messages.
    Best of luck.

    Big Thanks! I uploaded only 2 pieces of evidence with my RTB dispute, so LL and his solicitor think that's all i have. I gathered 14 other docs but FLAC advised me to upload as late as possible not to give them time to come up with any plausable excuse or to prepare. That's a smart advice i must say. The evidence has to be uploaded no later than 5 days before the hearing and that's what i will do.
    The daughter is in abroad working professionally there, added her to my Linkedin to keep an eye on things with her. She accepted ;)

    There is 1 bed apt of LL advertised on Daft currently, i took print shots of it and will add in to my evidence.

    I was thinking about hiring a barrister but to be honest the spare cash is an issue here, especially that i have not read even one RTB case where they award coverage of legal cost. E1500-2000 is probably min that i would have to cough up. If I lose the first adjudicator case then I probably will hire professional help for the Tribunal hearing.

    To secure my evidence I always email attachments to myself so i could access them from wherever place I am. No USB, no laptop folders, no dropbox, ect. but email yourself and keep copies this way.

    I wish things speed up now so I am not completely consumed with this shady case and do something more productive. I cant really do much or plan things cos i dont know if the system will help me or f*ck me over. Even with such a clean cut case FLAC said it's left to the adjudicator's interpretation on the day.

    I saw a few nice apts on Daft and was tempted to apply already but then if i apply now it will give LL a nice way out. If I dont apply and lose the case, i will eat grass soon.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    Even with such a clean cut case FLAC said it's left to the adjudicator's interpretation on the day.

    This is so true and why it is very important to be Fully prepared.

    RTB make it sound like it's an informal formal hearing, but often it can be far from that if they have a good barrister who will try their best to make your case look as weak as possible.


  • Registered Users Posts: 225 ✭✭Curious1002


    JJJackal wrote: »
    My thoughts, I have read a fair bit of the thread

    1) you probably need 2 party permission to use a recording of a conversation
    2) if the landlord has used the daughter is moving in excuse before and you prove this you will not be evicted. Does he actually have a daughter btw? Also those who he used it against will be entitled to compensation
    3) he is definitely not obliged to offer you another apartment; just cause he owns more
    4) the LL, LL son and solicitor sound like they are running a scam - I hope you win your case

    Good points.
    1. I was thinking of sumbitting the recording to the appeal case if LL tries to deny the conversation during the first stage of adjudication.
    I have other evidence proving the conversation took place - a text message, my extra rent i paid from the next month, and a call i logged with Threshold the same evening describing exactly what took place. If this is rebuffed then i will introduce the recording. I will check with a case officer assigned to my dispute what he thinks.
    2. Yes, the daughter exists, he told me about her last year when things were okay between us. He has another son too and could play this card too if he wanted. I added her to my Linkedin (I feel like a stalker). I even wonder if she is aware that her dad uses her name to evict people. I read that even a nephew and mother-in-law count for family members to use to evict people from properties.

    The other guy who got similar letter (re: daughter needs the apt) has moved out. He said he knew he wouldnt be able to fight it. He threw away the docs and moved out. Thankfully the same solicitor emailed him a copy of the termination notice at the time to ensure he got the docs by hand and email. Such efficiency of this lawyer and a great help to me now! I told the guy that i will be his witness if he wants me to. He said he will wait for a resolution of my case first before opening his own dispute. Very sensible.
    3. Yeah, i suspected that. Works great for him, doesnt it?
    4. Many thanks! I really hope so too!!


  • Registered Users Posts: 225 ✭✭Curious1002


    Dav010 wrote: »
    Giving an invalid notice is not a criminal offence, and you said making a false statutory declaration carries a €3000 fine if convicted on each count, it doesn’t.

    Again, acting on an invalid notice by evicting someone is a offence, giving invalid notice isn’t. The only notice the LL is acting on is the notice relating to needing for a family member.

    The €3000 fee is a laugh, like €500K penalty fee to Facebook for selling our personal details to advertisers. Thats why people are not afraid to break the law. If it's £50 then I have no words.

    The guy who got the "daughter needs the apt" letter earlier this year, has moved out while the daughter is abroad. The apt is occupied by some girl (foreign national), not the daughter. I got the very same letter. Is that not convincing enough that LL illegally acts on an invalid notice?
    Ok, tell me what in your opinion would it be to act on the invalid notice, if not the above situation where one guy lost a place already and another has one leg out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,971 ✭✭✭Jeff2


    There was a up to 15k fine for wrongful eviction plus compensation to tenant.


  • Registered Users Posts: 225 ✭✭Curious1002


    To Everyone who contributed to this thread - Big Thanks. I read all comments carefully and took all your advice on board especially about the specific legislation parts to support my case. As I have no legal background, your input and support was invaluable.

    I can now share with you that I just won the RTB case - the notice of termination is invalid and I was awarded €5000 in compensation. I never asked for any money but just to be allowed to live in my apt. in peace. I would gladly exchange the money to get the 10 months lost of my life back. He may appeal and if so, you will read about this case in details on the RTB website in a few months.

    Tenants and Landlords - please be fair and respect each other's rights.

    Thanks to All again.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,148 ✭✭✭Salary Negotiator


    Are you still living there?


  • Registered Users Posts: 225 ✭✭Curious1002


    Are you still living there?

    Yes, I do. Hopefully in peace for a few more years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,078 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Congratulations. Always pursue your rights.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,447 ✭✭✭davindub


    Well done Op! Would you mind detailing what the award was for specifically?


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,447 ✭✭✭davindub


    Well done Op! Would you mind detailing what the award was for specifically?


  • Registered Users Posts: 225 ✭✭Curious1002


    davindub wrote: »
    Well done Op! Would you mind detailing what the award was for specifically?


    Thanks!

    Here is the exact text:
    "The Respondent Landlord shall pay the total sum of €5000 to the Applicant Tenant within 21 days of the date of issue of the Determination Order, being damages of €5000 for the consequences of unlawful terminating the Applicant Tenant's tenancy of the above dwelling".

    At the hearing the landlord stated that his buildings are not protected structures and that he can do any refurbishments he wants at any time and to any extent. I proved that they all are protected structures and he needs to apply for permission if he wants to substantially refurbish them. The adjudicator was really annoyed that the landlord stated such a bold lie and everything he said later was pretty much overshadowed by this lie. He withdrew the lie later by saying that he misunderstood the question but i think it was too late already. I also proved by showing the Daft adverts that while he handed me the notice quoting the need of my apt for the kid, he advertised 4 apts on Daft. He told adjudicator that the kid saw my apt, loved my apt and wanted only my apt, not the other available 4. The adjudicator pointed out on the "genuine need" versus "desire". This probably won my case.
    There are a few other areas that the adjudicator pointed on in the determination order that, if believed the landlord's version of events, they do not make sense and he pretty much lost the case thanks to himself, I didn't actually do much. In fact, I was quite annoyed myself that I got just a few minutes to "freely" tell my story and then the landlord's lawyers took me in their hands trying to trip me over with their questions. In the report the adjudicator wrote about all the issues at length. I think I got awarded because of the two things - one, that it was 10 long months of my landlord's relentless efforts in getting me out using any excuse in the book. I started selling my furniture in December and got €15 for a cabinet that I paid €120 a year before. I applied for a few Daft adverts but got zero replies, was stressed out and this case affected me quite badly. It took a toll on me especially that the lawyers were sending me threatening letter about me not trying to speak to other tenants or they will sue me, seek injunctions, destroy financially and put me to jail. That letter was awful and the adjudicator was not impressed with it. The second reason why I think got awarded the money was because the adjudicator caught him on lying. He changed the story a few times within just a few minutes and the adjudicator asked him about it. He got all red, stammered, he said he has a hearing problem, even his barrister couldnt save him.

    I think the money was a form of a severe punishment for the landlord's actions and possible a warning for him not to do it again. If appealed the amount will probably be dropped to maybe €1000 but he will have to pay to his lawyers, barristers, etc. and all the details would be on a public display. I am not sure if he wants to go that route.

    The best accidental thing I did was to upload all my evidence to the RTB website on the last allowable day. I didnt do it purposely, I was trying to put everything in order, put a timeline together associated with each attachment and dropped everything to my dispute file at once.
    What happened then was that it gave very little time to the landlord's team to process everything and come up with some reasonable excuse to the mounting evidence. They uploaded all their docs also on the last allowable day (5 days before the hearing) but their evidence and submissions were not based on my evidence. They wrote in their statements something like "as we see, there is zero evidence from a tenant to support his claims", etc. They simply didnt see my evidence before they submitted theirs. Then they got not a nice surprise and had to prepare for the case from scratch reviewing each of 30 separate files I uploaded.

    I am happy it's "half" over. Hope they wont appeal and we all can move on with our lives.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,332 ✭✭✭MacDanger


    Well done, the LL sounds like a bully who's used to getting his own way.

    Did you report him to Revenue in the end?


  • Registered Users Posts: 36,078 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Sounds like they don’t have a leg to stand on with regards to an appeal. Well done again - it can be distressing and daunting to stand your ground but it is always superior to wishing you had given it a go after the fact.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭garhjw


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Sounds like they don’t have a leg to stand on with regards to an appeal. Well done again - it can be distressing and daunting to stand your ground but it is always superior to wishing you had given it a go after the fact.

    It does sound like the landlord has no right of appeal but in my experience the RTB will allow an appeal no matter what. I was a landlord and tenants were allowed to appeal even though there were no grounds....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,424 ✭✭✭garhjw


    LuckyLloyd wrote: »
    Sounds like they don’t have a leg to stand on with regards to an appeal. Well done again - it can be distressing and daunting to stand your ground but it is always superior to wishing you had given it a go after the fact.

    Unfortunately the RTB seems to allow appeals even if there are no grounds...


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  • Registered Users Posts: 329 ✭✭The_Fitz


    Well done.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,149 ✭✭✭Claw Hammer


    garhjw wrote: »
    It does sound like the landlord has no right of appeal but in my experience the RTB will allow an appeal no matter what. I was a landlord and tenants were allowed to appeal even though there were no grounds....

    The RTB has no choice but to allow an appeal hearing to proceed. An adjudication is informal, without sworn evidence. It would be completely unfair if they could decide not to allow an appeal to proceed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 225 ✭✭Curious1002


    Hi All, again,
    just to let you know that my landlord has just filed an appeal with the RTB. His lawyer sent me another letter yesterday saying that my landlord's daughter who "requires" my apartment for her use is available to meet with me to confirm that she requires to move into my apartment. Weird letter. They give me 7 days to respond. Crazy idea, but i suspect they just want to collect more evidence against me at this stage. I will ignore it just like i did with all previous letters.

    So my joy of winning the case against him lasted less than a week. I will see the bunch of them again at the appeal, probably in 1.5-2 months. You are all welcome to attend too, as I heard that Tribunal is open to all.
    The case details will be made public so you will read about it in a few months on the RTB website.

    It just shows how determined some people are when they want someone out - the cost, the Law, the reputation doesn't matter to them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,971 ✭✭✭Jeff2


    Yes don't meet the daughter as that is irrelevant to you unless she is disabled and your place is the only place there with disabled access.

    Still no need to meet her.


  • Registered Users Posts: 225 ✭✭Curious1002


    Jeff2 wrote: »
    Yes don't meet the daughter as that is irrelevant to you unless she is disabled and your place is the only place there with disabled access.

    Still no need to meet her.

    She is all fine and healthy, checked her out on Linkedin :cool: She just tries to help her dad to win the appeal. Every little helps!

    The "disability" stuff would have been used at the first hearing so I would be super surprised if they use it now. Plus I live on the 1st floor, stairs up, no lift.

    But hey, everything is possible at this stage - i suspect soon I will learn that he is selling my apt. Out of all 50 he will be selling just one and my apt to be exact. He will sell it to his daughter! Ha.

    I was wondering why they sent me that letter. They knew I would ignore it. It must be a tactical game and here are my 4 guesses:

    1. They try to collect new evidence of how the notice of termination quoting the urgent need of my apt for the daughter is real and genuine. They think that by showing the daughter's involvement in this case now, it will make it more "real and genuine". The daughter didnt show up at the first hearing and she never issued any statement, no emails, no texts of how much she wants my apt, nothing. So now for the appeal they will show the mountain of evidence proving the reason is genuine.

    2. In case I agree for the meeting they will record my answers and use them against me at the appeal.

    3. To destroy my peace and stop me from feeling happy and secured after my win.

    4. To show how unwilling i am to participate in a friendly meeting and how, in their opinion, it proves of how bad/nasty/awful guy I am.
    The adjudicator wrote in the determination order that i appear genuine, honest and trustworthy while my landlord appears as untruthful and his evidence unreliable. They now will try to destroy this image and my character at the appeal.


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,226 ✭✭✭✭fritzelly


    I think you should ask the mod to merge the two threads - you are repeating the same information over two threads now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 225 ✭✭Curious1002


    fritzelly wrote: »
    I think you should ask the mod to merge the two threads - you are repeating the same information over two threads now.

    I dont know how to do it. The other thread was posted to the legal advice/discussion forum and was about the solicitor's threatening letter I got 4 weeks ago. I was asking what to do with it and needed a specific legal advice.

    This thread was started back in November 2019 when I got my last Notice of Termination and relates to the entire case.

    Dont know if merging 2 threads would work.

    Moderators, can you advice?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Mod's can't generally merge threads in different forums, unless they are moderators of both forums.

    While we generally wouldn't condone cross-posting (multiple threads on the same topic), it appears to have occurred quite naturally in this instance and is appropriate to both audiences so I'm inclined to leave as is if the OP is happy to continue.


  • Registered Users Posts: 225 ✭✭Curious1002


    Graham wrote: »
    Mod's can't generally merge threads in different forums, unless they are moderators of both forums.

    While we generally wouldn't condone cross-posting (multiple threads on the same topic), it appears to have occurred quite naturally in this instance and is appropriate to both audiences so I'm inclined to leave as is if the OP is happy to continue.

    Many thanks, Graham. Happy to leave the 2 threads as they are.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭elfy4eva


    Good luck in the appeal OP. I doubt I would have had the nerve to stand up for myself in such a circumstance. Here's hoping for a swift ruling in your favour.


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