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Feeling like AGS are giving me the run around.

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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭ZiabR




  • Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    In a parallel universe Ireland that is.:rolleyes::D It's an endemic ingrained problem in the force since the States foundation.Only way to sort this out is to do like the RUC.Disband the force and strt again from the ground up.Or create a a 3rd force like in many EU countries,an armed para military police force whose sole job is dealing with political,radicals and threats of the like to the state,with CLEARLY defined zones of busisness under the constitution and law.And let AGS get on with the mundane police tasks of parking tickets,and helping old ladies cross the road.


    Isn't that what the special branch is, or was ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,930 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Nope,they are a branch of the AGS who are supposedly apolitical and were to deal with any threats to the state.However they like aGS in general are a political arm of the Irish Govt and have been so since the foundation.

    A paramilitary police force like the Gendarmaire, in France Bundes grenz schutz in Germany and the Gaurdia Civil in Spain and Italys Carabineri and Gaurdia de Fininsia are wholly outside the police remit and arm and are tasked with dealing with major threats to the state.IE radical iIslam,extremists of both sides of the political divide,domestic terrorism and massive fraud and narcotic gangs as in Italys case with the Gaurdia de Finanzia,who are an arm of their Revenue comission,and are better armed and equipped than some branches of our armed forces. The idea of this is that the national police force does not become a politisied arm of a govt used to suppress dissent of their opposition on a day to day basis.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭ZiabR


    Will we ever see reform in this country... We have such reactive systems here, never a proactive one.

    We should be looking to follow suit with the other EU countries and setup a dedicated paramilitary force to deal with the higher levels of crime that are rampant in recent years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,930 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Not unless the Irish people want to revamp thier country and system of government,and of course if our EU overlords allow such to happen. But then again,the craic might start next year with Brexit,and if this crazy push for a 32 county Ireland does come to pass,then we might see some things a changin

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,124 ✭✭✭BryanL


    32 county Ireland? what madness. Yes it worked for thousands of years.

    But this 26 + 6 has been such a success for everyone.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Not unless the Irish people want to revamp thier country and system of government,and of course if our EU overlords allow such to happen. But then again,the craic might start next year with Brexit,and if this crazy push for a 32 county Ireland does come to pass,then we might see some things a changin

    Nah, they crowd here will try to continue the irish way of doing things up there, with the usual corruption, backhanders, relations being dropped into cushy jobs etc. Then we will have the unionist wild men getting out the bullets and the bombs, and the marxist-socialist freedom fighters returning the favour. Of course we would be able to go to the eu on the mooch and see if we can get more money for it. Westminster gives the north 9 billion pounds a year, where would we find that money ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,930 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    I hope I'm around to see how the utter polar opposites of gun liscensing between NI and the ROI will work out for us.:p Esp NI with concealed carry,an armed police force,reloading,black powder,IPSC and liscensing the man not the gun.As well as proably more illegal arms up there than legal arms will work out against ,the most restrictive gun legislation and policies in the EU. Not to mind a much more Bolshie attitude to things up North than down here.

    Still, it will make our shower have to work for their money in the Dail...Imagine a quarter of the Dail full of dour Peter Robinson,and Orange men types,saying NO! to everything,just for the sheer Hell of it!:D:D

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭ZiabR


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    I hope I'm around to see how the utter polar opposites of gun liscensing between NI and the ROI will work out for us.:p Esp NI with concealed carry,an armed police force,reloading,black powder,IPSC and liscensing the man not the gun.As well as proably more illegal arms up there than legal arms will work out against ,the most restrictive gun legislation and policies in the EU. Not to mind a much more Bolshie attitude to things up North than down here.

    Still, it will make our shower have to work for their money in the Dail...Imagine a quarter of the Dail full of dour Peter Robinson,and Orange men types,saying NO! to everything,just for the sheer Hell of it!:D:D

    That is going to be one hell of a mine field for sure. The south will come off the worse of the two.


  • Registered Users Posts: 146 ✭✭Bagpipe


    So if 26+6 occurs which licensing system is most likely to prevail?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 14,930 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Proably a chaotic mix of both.As it will also boil down to;

    What will a 32 county police force of Ireland be?
    Armed or unarmed for a start? No matter what the politicans say on both sides of the divide.Thee always will be hardcore IRA/Loyalists who will see a 32 county as a sellout,to their particular ideals.If we think ALL weapons were decomissioned,we do have another think coming our way too.There is still enough hardware out there to run a low-intensity conflict until the 2050s at least.That disappered when the Provos broke up and quartermasters went renegade. Apart from that,we haven't experianced gang warfare on a proper scale here YET. Wait until our certain imported ethnic groups get a good foothold here and the current family squabbles will be nothing in comparison

    2] As NI has many members of Crown forces, and govt and retired military police personal ,as well as civillians with concealed carry permits issued by PSNI/RUC for their own self-defence.What will become of their security?There will be no way in Hell a police force will be able to offer them 24/7 police protection,and who will judge who is more worthy of it? If it is left,then that opens another can of worms for the South,as it would be unfair to deny concealed carry to anyone under threat in the republic either.Further can of worms in the previous can of worms itself. The people most under threat from shooting are criminals and associates!Do they now have a greater right to a concealed carry permit,than the law abiding shooter?:eek: Don't laught,this is now the situation in Germany with concealed carry.You have a better chance of getting a cCCWP if you are a member of a biker gang who has turned states evidence,than th journalist who broke the story after a 3year undercover investigation!:eek:

    IPSC.
    Has a stonger following in NI than the Republic,and those that ran to NI and have done SFA!!! to try and rekindle the sport down here as the ROI"repersentatives" will be in for a hard time too.

    Blackpowder, reloading historical shoots etc. Will require reworking both NI and ROI liscensing on "explosives" as well as what about Fireworks?freely available in NI ,prohibited in ROI.

    Liscensing systems,totally incompatible with each other.
    Shooting seasons and requirements for deer hunting lics incompatible as well.

    ERGO this will be a hideous mess and a potentially dangerous one too.Because if this is not handled properly it has the potential to spark off the conflict again.Do you think our lot in Dublin could handle this without making a total pigs arse out of this?? but then again,as they are "illegal weapons,and outside the law,it isnt of much concern" to them as they dont affect law abiding shooters"[A paraphrase of one DOJ offical I was at on Dec 5th meeting this year]

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    Do you think our lot in Dublin could handle this without making a total pigs arse out of this?? but then again,as they are "illegal weapons,and outside the law,it isnt of much concern" to them as they dont affect law abiding shooters"[A paraphrase of one DOJ offical I was at on Dec 5th meeting this year]

    :eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

    Non of the parties here could run a piss-up in Guinesses brewery. Puffed up county councillors is what most of them are. Ditto the senate, a retirement home for the incompetent, the bewildered and the unpopular (those that missed out on a job in brussels).


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,880 ✭✭✭2012paddy2012


    Bagpipe wrote: »
    Hello,
    I threw in 2 applications (Shotgun and moderator for another rifle) nearly a month and a half ago, the FO has been "looking for me" for last 4 weeks but every time I call the station he's either "in the car" or "off on work-break until Monday, then until Wednesday, then until Friday etc.). I'm starting to get a bit annoyed because I don't want to be constantly annoying them but I would expect that they would have the decency to at least contact me after taking my details so many times.



    So would you guys have any ideas on what to do next or am i just being a (whatever the word is :p) ?

    Look up the station on the site Garda .ie. use the email the station option. Ask about it that route ... it will arrive to the member from the superintendent office , it should elicit a reply in due course ..


  • Registered Users Posts: 146 ✭✭Bagpipe


    Ok so the conclusion to our wonderful adventure.

    The conversations over the phone were most likely because of how rough I looked in the passport picture compared to reality :D His tone was very very different once we met in person.

    So he was very reluctant to sign off on the forms for two reasons, he "doesn't like guns, doesn't like giving out guns and doesn't like people having guns" and because "of the difficulty had in getting a hold of me". But once I explained why I needed them and how I'm not a complete danger to society all was well. The usual 'if he ever has to seize one of my firearms I'll never own one again', proper storage etc. was communicated.

    Now after 'PULSE-ing' my referees he caught me looking at his award commemoration thingies PSNI, LP and AGS i.e the large framed rank insignia with different patches or items like the silver whistle and the division number or whatever etc etc, and he told me his stories from working in the PSNI and the London Police before the Gardaí, they were very, very interesting.

    So with a confirmation that the applications would be signed off that day and a fine handshake, the interrogation ended :D

    But yes lads thats the conclusion and so I'm really not sure what to make of the communication shambles at the start of this process but sure look we got there in the end.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    Bagpipe wrote: »
    Ok so the conclusion to our wonderful adventure.

    The conversations over the phone were most likely because of how rough I looked in the passport picture compared to reality :D His tone was very very different once we met in person.

    So he was very reluctant to sign off on the forms for two reasons, he "doesn't like guns, doesn't like giving out guns and doesn't like people having guns" and because "of the difficulty had in getting a hold of me". But once I explained why I needed them and how I'm not a complete danger to society all was well. The usual 'if he ever has to seize one of my firearms I'll never own one again', proper storage etc. was communicated.

    Now after 'PULSE-ing' my referees he caught me looking at his award commemoration thingies PSNI, LP and AGS i.e the large framed rank insignia with different patches or items like the silver whistle and the division number or whatever etc etc, and he told me his stories from working in the PSNI and the London Police before the Gardaí, they were very, very interesting.

    So with a confirmation that the applications would be signed off that day and a fine handshake, the interrogation ended :D

    But yes lads thats the conclusion and so I'm really not sure what to make of the communication shambles at the start of this process but sure look we got there in the end.

    Tough tits, its part of his job :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,020 ✭✭✭Gorgeousgeorge


    Bagpipe wrote: »
    Ok so the conclusion to our wonderful adventure.

    The conversations over the phone were most likely because of how rough I looked in the passport picture compared to reality :D His tone was very very different once we met in person.

    So he was very reluctant to sign off on the forms for two reasons, he "doesn't like guns, doesn't like giving out guns and doesn't like people having guns" and because "of the difficulty had in getting a hold of me". But once I explained why I needed them and how I'm not a complete danger to society all was well. The usual 'if he ever has to seize one of my firearms I'll never own one again', proper storage etc. was communicated.

    Now after 'PULSE-ing' my referees he caught me looking at his award commemoration thingies PSNI, LP and AGS i.e the large framed rank insignia with different patches or items like the silver whistle and the division number or whatever etc etc, and he told me his stories from working in the PSNI and the London Police before the Gardaí, they were very, very interesting.

    So with a confirmation that the applications would be signed off that day and a fine handshake, the interrogation ended :D

    But yes lads thats the conclusion and so I'm really not sure what to make of the communication shambles at the start of this process but sure look we got there in the end.

    Sounds like a know-it-all w*nker. Who cares if he likes it or not.

    Anyway well done on getting sorted and fighting your corner


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,128 ✭✭✭Emmersonn


    Whether he likes or dislikes guns on a personal level should have no bearing whatever on his administering the laws of our country. He sound a proper control freak. Another muppet who would have us hunting with sticks, Hopefully he never makes it to our Dáil.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,124 ✭✭✭BryanL


    I’m grateful to everyone that pushes their case for a licence or for another gun or for a moderator.

    Makes it easier for the rest of us.

    And by easier I mean they follow the laws as they’re set out and not their own personal belief or opinion system.


  • Registered Users Posts: 146 ✭✭Bagpipe


    Whats the actual criteria for refusing an application? Surely it isn't like "that firearm looks like something the military would use therefore you are not allowed to have it" or else maybe "that cartridge is too powerful for what you will be doing"?

    And also thank you everyone for your input over the last two weeks!


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,930 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Bagpipe wrote: »
    Whats the actual criteria for refusing an application? Surely it isn't like "that firearm looks like something the military would use therefore you are not allowed to have it" or else maybe "that cartridge is too powerful for what you will be doing"?

    And also thank you everyone for your input over the last two weeks!

    What we christined the "I dont like de look o dat now!" clause here many years ago on boards.:D It has fortunately fallen into disuse after many court cases in the DC level and where "Form does NOT follow Function" was proven deciseviely in favour of the Irish shooter,as well as the slight matter of "What does an assault rifle or military "weapon" actually look like under Irish legislation?.
    Referencing back to "The Waterford tractor case" in the 1980s in the High court of the Revenue Vs a local Waterford farmer who modified a Toyota HI lux PU to a low ground pressure sprayer and was attempted to be done by customs for using marked fuel in it.As there was no definition in law as to what a tractor is, despite us all maybe knowing what one looks like, it was ruled in the farmers favour.
    Ergo the same in the case of firearms that might look "military like".It destroyed the cheif AGS ballistics inspector/"expert" reputation,and with the addition of costs may being awarded against the AGS by the DC for loss,AGS has pulled in their horns abit on this clause.

    The simple fact is,if you can prove an especial good reason to own a restricted firearm ,it wil be granted.If say you are going to go Wild boar hiunting on the continent,and can prove such and want a 45/70 lever action or AR in 458 SOCOM for your trip,or want a 10 stot shotgun for Embassy cup.That is good reason there.
    Saying you are being refused,because of DOJ policy to reduce semi autos and because the 2017 legislation that Frannie Fitz left in a mess is not good enough,when there ARE lics been granted for such,WITH THE PROVISO,that they may be revoked at some stage in the future,under some reason is possibly an acceptable risk to some?[Despite it being IPSO FACTO legislation,again violating a bunch of Irish and EU and international laws is another days work]

    So in the end a Super or Cheif saying they are refusing on the grounds of looks is talking out of his gold braided cap. Ask him for those reasons in writing which he is obliged to do and take it to your solicitor if you want to go down that road.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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  • Registered Users Posts: 146 ✭✭Bagpipe


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    What we christined the "I dont like de look o dat now!" clause here many years ago on boards.:D It has fortunately fallen into disuse after many court cases in the DC level and where "Form does NOT follow Function" was proven deciseviely in favour of the Irish shooter,as well as the slight matter of "What does an assault rifle or military "weapon" actually look like under Irish legislation?.
    Referencing back to "The Waterford tractor case" in the 1980s in the High court of the Revenue Vs a local Waterford farmer who modified a Toyota HI lux PU to a low ground pressure sprayer and was attempted to be done by customs for using marked fuel in it.As there was no definition in law as to what a tractor is, despite us all maybe knowing what one looks like, it was ruled in the farmers favour.
    Ergo the same in the case of firearms that might look "military like".It destroyed the cheif AGS ballistics inspector/"expert" reputation,and with the addition of costs may being awarded against the AGS by the DC for loss,AGS has pulled in their horns abit on this clause.

    The simple fact is,if you can prove an especial good reason to own a restricted firearm ,it wil be granted.If say you are going to go Wild boar hiunting on the continent,and can prove such and want a 45/70 lever action or AR in 458 SOCOM for your trip,or want a 10 stot shotgun for Embassy cup.That is good reason there.
    Saying you are being refused,because of DOJ policy to reduce semi autos and because the 2017 legislation that Frannie Fitz left in a mess is not good enough,when there ARE lics been granted for such,WITH THE PROVISO,that they may be revoked at some stage in the future,under some reason is possibly an acceptable risk to some?[Despite it being IPSO FACTO legislation,again violating a bunch of Irish and EU and international laws is another days work]

    So in the end a Super or Cheif saying they are refusing on the grounds of looks is talking out of his gold braided cap. Ask him for those reasons in writing which he is obliged to do and take it to your solicitor if you want to go down that road.




    So if he can't actually come up with a reason he HAS to sign off on it or else we both take a trip down to legal city?

    Technically if i had a very good reason I could get one of those SIG 516s or a bog standard AR-15? Would I even be allowed to keep it at my house?:D


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,930 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    Bagpipe wrote: »
    So if he can't actually come up with a reason he HAS to sign off on it or else we both take a trip down to legal city?

    Technically if i had a very good reason I could get one of those SIG 516s or a bog standard AR-15? Would I even be allowed to keep it at my house?:D

    Correct...And yes you can keep it in your house.As I and about 180 other semi auto sporting rifle owners can attest to .But no doubt he might take it to the court doors,and not show up and act the bollix as much as possible,until he is told by the judge to start doing his job.

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭ZiabR


    Glad you got sorted in the end. A long road but you are on the home straight now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,280 ✭✭✭tudderone


    Grizzly 45 wrote: »
    What we christined the "I dont like de look o dat now!" clause here many years ago on boards.:D It has fortunately fallen into disuse after many court cases in the DC level and where "Form does NOT follow Function" was proven deciseviely in favour of the Irish shooter,as well as the slight matter of "What does an assault rifle or military "weapon" actually look like under Irish legislation?.
    Referencing back to "The Waterford tractor case" in the 1980s in the High court
    Ergo the same in the case of firearms that might look "military like".It destroyed the cheif AGS ballistics inspector/"expert" reputation,and with the addition of costs may being awarded against the AGS by the DC for loss,AGS has pulled in their horns abit on this clause.


    I had this out with a fudd superintendent some years ago, not that it made much odds, thick as a brick he was. Everything we own, cars, motorcycles, home tech look very little like they did 10, 20, 30, or 40 years ago. Design moves on at a furious pace, leap-frogging the competition. I remember the first mobile phone i seen, a huge metal battery case, with a cord to a handset coming from it. It cost the earth to buy and run. Now you can get something that costs next to nothing and is basically a computer/camera that you can make calls on and slip in your pocket.

    Why should guns be any different ? Technology has moved on from the stuff we had to use in the 80's, baikal double barrels and brno bolt actions. But the PTB would have us like something from the 1890's, preserved in aspic.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,880 ✭✭✭2012paddy2012


    was this ever resolved


  • Registered Users Posts: 146 ✭✭Bagpipe


    was this ever resolved


    Yes everything was sorted, hopefully all my future applications will run smoothly :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 14,930 ✭✭✭✭Grizzly 45


    tudderone wrote: »
    I had this out with a fudd superintendent some years ago, not that it made much odds, thick as a brick he was. Everything we own, cars, motorcycles, home tech look very little like they did 10, 20, 30, or 40 years ago. Design moves on at a furious pace, leap-frogging the competition. I remember the first mobile phone i seen, a huge metal battery case, with a cord to a handset coming from it. It cost the earth to buy and run. Now you can get something that costs next to nothing and is basically a computer/camera that you can make calls on and slip in your pocket.

    Why should guns be any different ? Technology has moved on from the stuff we had to use in the 80's, baikal double barrels and brno bolt actions. But the PTB would have us like something from the 1890's, preserved in aspic.


    Well seniority of rank in any army or police force is no grauntee of intelligence or BCS as history has proven many times too.
    My 1st boss had one of those Motorola phones...I knew only to well what one of those WW2 GI field radio men felt like.As I was always humping that pig of a device about the place with batteries and charger for him.:P Thing was as heavy as one of the old PRC[Guess what the GIs called it with those initials!] 10 handhelds. And yes technology moves on so fast,actually now that even the dreaded AR15 is now, in its Vietnam issue configuration,into the classic and vintage category of rifles already.:)

    "If you want to keep someone away from your house, Just fire the shotgun through the door."

    Vice President [and former lawyer] Joe Biden Field& Stream Magazine interview Feb 2013 "



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