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Can non-Irish people do Halloween at all without it being cultural appropriation?

  • 15-10-2013 12:39pm
    #1
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,423 ✭✭✭


    This came up in a discussion I was having with friends about racist costumes
    and and cultural appropriation at this time of year.
    This question was asked " can non-Irish people do Halloween at all without it being cultural appropriation?"
    so I was curious to what people here think.


Comments

  • #2
    Umekichi
    Registered Users Posts: 474 ✭✭Umekichi


    Um... The whole costume and trick or treat aspect of Halloween is American iirc
    Personally, I don't give a hoot about who celebrates what and honestly hate the term "cultural appropriation", however I can agree somewhat with those who denounce it.

    As for "racist costumes" I don't think I have ever seen one... any links?


  • #3
    CuAnnan
    Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭CuAnnan


    Umekichi wrote: »
    Um... The whole costume and trick or treat aspect of Halloween is American iirc
    Nope. Ireland and England were doing it in Shakespearean times.
    Umekichi wrote: »
    Personally, I don't give a hoot about who celebrates what and honestly hate the term "cultural appropriation", however I can agree somewhat with those who denounce it.
    Personally, I hate people who culturally misappropriate.
    But that just shows that there is no consensus about ethical behaviour in pagan communities, owing to our diverse backgrounds and cultural contexts.
    Umekichi wrote: »
    As for "racist costumes" I don't think I have ever seen one... any links?
    Here ya go.


  • #4
    CuAnnan
    Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭CuAnnan


    Morag wrote: »
    This question was asked " can non-Irish people do Halloween at all without it being cultural appropriation?"
    so I was curious to what people here think.
    Yes.
    Halloween is not Samhain. It does not share its roots with Samhain. All Saint's Day was moved from May to October in the 4th or 5th Century.

    As to whether they can celebrate Samhain, that's a different question. But sure. If it floats their boats, they can celebrate Samhain. If, however, they're just tacking "Samhain" onto whatever completely non-Samhain things they have going on at the end of october, that I'd be inclined to call misappropriation.


  • #5
    Umekichi
    Registered Users Posts: 474 ✭✭Umekichi


    CuAnnan wrote: »
    Nope. Ireland and England were doing it in Shakespearean times.


    Personally, I hate people who culturally misappropriate.
    But that just shows that there is no consensus about ethical behaviour in pagan communities, owing to our diverse backgrounds and cultural contexts.


    Here ya go.

    Oh I was always led to believe it was an American tradition.

    I actually agree with you on the misappropriation, "plastic shamans" do my head in and some eclectic Wiccans too with their "magpie spirituality". Have you ever heard of "Witta" by Edain McCoy? I would recommend reading it just for the lulz, the amount of misappropriation and wrongness in that book is RIDICULOUS! Apparently we had a potato goddess... :rolleyes:
    I think a lot of cultural misappropriation is down to ignorance, pure blind ignorance which in today's society is unacceptable.

    However using a technique from another tradition is ok, either by using it in the correct context or by using it as a jumping off point in creating a technique. For example I use Mindfulness meditation to quiet my mind whenever I wish to do well... alot of stuff, however I'm not Buddhist but I am knowlegable about Buddhism so no issue of disrespect there.

    The issue with the costumes... I'm not Native American so I can't comment but I could see how they would be racist. However I don't think the people who wear them are racist, a bit ignorant maybe, but not racist. I mean if you went up to them and asked them to wear blackface they would say "no it's a racist costume", so I don't think they realise the racism. I think the Native American community needs to do a bit more in publicising how racist these costumes are and eventually it will stop.

    For costume events, I usually wear proper Kimono(and correctly as well) and it sickens me the amount of times I see a "Geisha", who looks like a hooker in a Penneys satin chinese robe thing(you know what I mean"), with face covered in talc. It frustrates me, because it is very disrespectful to both Japanese people and actual Geisha who are very beautiful and elegant. If you are going to dress up as something "different", do it right or don't do it at all!:mad:


  • #6
    CuAnnan
    Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭CuAnnan


    Umekichi wrote: »
    Have you ever heard of "Witta" by Edain McCoy?
    Yes, I have
    Umekichi wrote: »
    Apparently we had a potato goddess... :rolleyes:
    And potatoes were used in fertility rituals.
    Umekichi wrote: »
    However using a technique from another tradition is ok
    Not neccessarily.
    There are techniques and traditions that cannot be used by outsiders without misappropriating them. Kabbalah, for example, is not for goyim at all and any use thereof is automatically misappropriation.
    Umekichi wrote: »
    However I don't think the people who wear them are racist, a bit ignorant maybe, but not racist.
    We'll have to disagree on that.
    Pastiching a culture you don't belong to is inherently racist.
    Umekichi wrote: »
    I mean if you went up to them and asked them to wear blackface they would say "no it's a racist costume", so I don't think they realise the racism.
    One can be a racist without knowing it. Endemic systematic racism doesn't require the consent or knowledge of the participants.


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  • #7
    Morag
    Registered Users Posts: 8,423 ✭✭✭Morag


    Well would it be cultural appropriation to celebrate day of the dead if you were not Hispanic or had any connection to that culture?


  • #8
    Jenneke87
    Registered Users Posts: 807 ✭✭✭Jenneke87


    CuAnnan wrote: »
    Yes.
    Halloween is not Samhain. It does not share its roots with Samhain. All Saint's Day was moved from May to October in the 4th or 5th Century.

    As to whether they can celebrate Samhain, that's a different question. But sure. If it floats their boats, they can celebrate Samhain. If, however, they're just tacking "Samhain" onto whatever completely non-Samhain things they have going on at the end of october, that I'd be inclined to call misappropriation.

    Hi CuAnnan,

    Can you tell me when you found that information about All Saint's day and it being moved from May to October? Thank you.


  • #9
    CuAnnan
    Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭CuAnnan


    Jenneke87 wrote: »
    Hi CuAnnan,

    Can you tell me when you found that information about All Saint's day and it being moved from May to October? Thank you.

    Wikipedia cites C. Smith The New Catholic Encyclopedia 1967: s.v. "Feast of All Saints", p. 318.

    But there's also
    http://www.catholic.org/saints/allsaints/


  • #10
    CuAnnan
    Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭CuAnnan


    Morag wrote: »
    Well would it be cultural appropriation to celebrate day of the dead if you were not Hispanic or had any connection to that culture?
    I don't know enough about either Hispanic culture or the festival that is the Day of the Dead to comment.


  • #11
    Umekichi
    Registered Users Posts: 474 ✭✭Umekichi


    CuAnnan wrote: »
    Yes, I have


    And potatoes were used in fertility rituals.


    Not neccessarily.
    There are techniques and traditions that cannot be used by outsiders without misappropriating them. Kabbalah, for example, is not for goyim at all and any use thereof is automatically misappropriation.


    We'll have to disagree on that.
    Pastiching a culture you don't belong to is inherently racist.


    One can be a racist without knowing it. Endemic systematic racism doesn't require the consent or knowledge of the participants.

    I agree with you about the techniques(which if my post was quoted fully I actually mentioned in a roundabout way - I apologise I was tired), I have spiritual magpies as friends(Lovely people, I just don't agree with their way of doing things) and it frustrates me when they go on and on and on about doing Kabbalah, I'm like, "are you Jews? as last time I checked it was for Jews only" and please don't get me started about the litany of "Part Native American Shamans" :mad:

    I'm just curious, What about Wiccan Holidays? Wouldn't they be considered Cultural Appropriation?


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  • #12
    o1s1n
    Registered Users Posts: 34,367 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    Isnt the term 'cultural appropriation' rife with racist undertones though?

    Seems very 'dem foreigners stealing our culture/holidays!'

    Cultures are build to the amalgamation and cross pollenation of beliefs, myths, legends and celebrations.

    You cannot stop (and certainly shouldnt look down from your ivory tower) on those who wish to celebrate holidays/feasts/whatever.


  • #13
    CuAnnan
    Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭CuAnnan


    Umekichi wrote: »
    I'm just curious, What about Wiccan Holidays? Wouldn't they be considered Cultural Appropriation?
    It would be my contention that, for the most part, they are.


  • #14
    Lou.m
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,532 ✭✭✭Lou.m


    Morag wrote: »
    This came up in a discussion I was having with friends about racist costumes
    and and cultural appropriation at this time of year.
    This question was asked " can non-Irish people do Halloween at all without it being cultural appropriation?"
    so I was curious to what people here think.
    People can manifest motivation from any ideas to do whatever they want.

    Americans can practice Halloween rituals because it is nostalgic to them as they grew up doing it. Americans grew up trick or treating and it was a part of their childhood legitimately. The generation of children doing it now received that from their parents. It is in the storylines of films /stories etc.

    It is now very much apart of their culture.

    Santa is a manufactured coke cola icon.

    We 'appropriate' a lot of American culture why is it never racist when people do it to American culture?

    I also don't think Irish people are a race. Also the Irish brought it to the states as immigrants and started passing it on to the kids etc. So it spread organically much as it did here.

    The Irish immigrants passed it on to their kids just as people here passed it on to theirs. So I think they have a right to it. It just became very commercialized in the US. And obviously here it does have much more cultural traditions etc.

    But seriously it seems crazy to deny people the right to party :cool:


  • #15
    Tabnabs
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 15,687 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tabnabs


    Lou.m wrote: »


    Santa is a manufactured coke cola icon.

    Santa has roots in many cultures, traditions and periods, including the Saami shaman (flying reindeer and all that).


  • #16
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    CuAnnan wrote: »
    Yes.
    Halloween is not Samhain. It does not share its roots with Samhain. All Saint's Day was moved from May to October in the 4th or 5th Century.

    As to whether they can celebrate Samhain, that's a different question. But sure. If it floats their boats, they can celebrate Samhain. If, however, they're just tacking "Samhain" onto whatever completely non-Samhain things they have going on at the end of october, that I'd be inclined to call misappropriation.

    Halloween is definitely Samhain, or rather Oiche Samhain. The next day was appropriated by the Catholic Church and is celebrated in Catholic Countries as a minor feast. Halloween ran parallel to this tradition in the Celtic periphery.


  • #17
    CuAnnan
    Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭CuAnnan


    Lou.m wrote: »
    I also don't think Irish people are a race.
    That's nice.
    Why not?
    Lou.m wrote: »
    Also the Irish brought it to the states as immigrants and started passing it on to the kids etc. So it spread organically much as it did here.
    Are you confusing Halloween with Samhain?


  • #18
    CuAnnan
    Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭CuAnnan


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    Halloween is definitely Samhain, or rather Oiche Samhain.
    Halloween is definitely not Samhain.
    Now, we can go around in circles all day with you tacitly saying "I'm not going to comment on the historical facts that All Hallow's Day was originally in May" and my repeatedly pointing out "uh, but All Hallows Day was originally in May".
    And that Halloween has about a half dozen cultural influence which are not Samhain.
    But frankly, I hate that kind of argument.
    So.
    How about you post some kind of evidence.
    Lou.m wrote: »
    The next day was appropriated by the Catholic Church and is celebrated in Catholic Countries as a minor feast. Halloween ran parallel to this tradition in the Celtic periphery.
    Historical revisionism and nonsense do not an argument make.


  • #19
    Frank Lee Midere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,780 ✭✭✭Frank Lee Midere


    CuAnnan wrote: »
    Halloween is definitely not Samhain.
    Now, we can go around in circles all day with you tacitly saying "I'm not going to comment on the historical facts that All Hallow's Day was originally in May" and my repeatedly pointing out "uh, but All Hallows Day was originally in May".
    And that Halloween has about a half dozen cultural influence which are not Samhain.
    But frankly, I hate that kind of argument.
    So.
    How about you post some kind of evidence.


    Historical revisionism and nonsense do not an argument make.


    The actual evidence is clear. The holy Christian day is All Hallows' day. There is nothing holy about the day before. No masses etc. it is the day before which the Irish and other Celtic groups celebrate and call Samhain in Gaelic.

    As for the Internet there is no evidence of anything else. Outside (possibly) few looney neo-paganism sites. Samhain is Halloween.

    And making extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence. You need to provide the evidence , not me.


  • #20
    CuAnnan
    Registered Users Posts: 131 ✭✭CuAnnan


    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    The actual evidence is clear. The holy Christian day is All Hallows' day. There is nothing holy about the day before. No masses etc. it is the day before which the Irish and other Celtic groups celebrate and call Samhain in Gaelic.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween#Christian_influence

    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    As for the Internet there is no evidence of anything else. Outside (possibly) few looney neo-paganism sites. Samhain is Halloween.
    Didn't look very hard, considering Wikipedia has a metric **** tonne of sites supporting the "Halloween is not Samhain" thing.
    Frank Lee Midere wrote: »
    And making extraordinary claims requires extraordinary evidence. You need to provide the evidence , not me.
    The extraordinary claim is yours, not mine.


  • #21
    PaddyORuadhan
    Registered Users Posts: 563 ✭✭✭PaddyORuadhan


    CuAnnan... why are all the traditions dating back centuries to do with halloween more in line with celtic mythological ideas than those of Christianity? I don't remember anything in Catholic doctrine talking about the spirits of the dead crossing over from the 'other' side. No like many Catholic feasts it is far more likely that it is christian appropriation of previous pagan tradition


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  • #22
    Demonique
    Registered Users Posts: 2,803 ✭✭✭Demonique


    CuAnnan wrote: »
    That's nice.
    Why not?

    Because we're not? Irish is a culture or ethnicity rather than a race, white Irish people are a part of the Caucasian race.


  • #23
    Eldergleam
    Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭Eldergleam


    Personally I reckon that since there is this ambiguity between All Hallows/All Saint's/Samhain/Hallowe'en, whatever the masses are celebrating can't really be labelled cultural appropriation as what they're celebrating isn't really any particular original cultural holiday but a bastard emalgamation of many things which has become something new, in and of itself. Inasmuch as racist costumes are concerned, I agree that Native American costumes are probably highly offensive to Native American culture, but at the same time, I find it ridiculous when I see modern society folks dressed in "Hippie" costumes. At the end of the day, the harm is not meant on the part of the costume wearer, but percieved by the observers, and can (and maybe should?) be forgiven in the spirit that it's meant. Subconsciously at the end of the day people were drawn to their costumes for a myriad of reasons, and it's not really anyone's place to judge their choice. Children dress as vampires and witches because they want to be a vampire or a witch for a day, and we don't hold it against them. Forgiveness and understanding, an it harm none, they're only harming you if you're harmed.


  • #24
    Eldergleam
    Registered Users Posts: 6 ✭Eldergleam


    Lame troll, dude. You should be embarrassed.


  • #25
    Kev W
    Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    Trabejo wrote: »
    It's all subjective. To you they are cliches, to others my advice might be the wake up call needed.

    And I am certainly not boring, I am living the high life on the borders of Colombia and if you had read the Longford thread in afterhours you would see that maybe you should treat my advice more seriously, i can help you pal but first your negative attitude has to go.

    I tried to read that thread.
    It was boring.

    Edited to add:

    Pal.


  • #26
    Kev W
    Registered Users Posts: 2,536 ✭✭✭Kev W


    Back to the actual subject at hand, I think Halloween as it's celebrated now is so divorced from its roots that any point about cultural appropriation is moot.
    Non-pagan people celebrate Halloween in much the same way non-Christians celebrate Christmas.


  • #27
    donaghs
    Registered Users Posts: 2,690 ✭✭✭donaghs


    Kev W wrote: »
    Back to the actual subject at hand, I think Halloween as it's celebrated now is so divorced from its roots that any point about cultural appropriation is moot.
    Non-pagan people celebrate Halloween in much the same way non-Christians celebrate Christmas.

    I'd agree. For most people its just a bit of fun without any deeper meaning. Nothing wrong with that.

    What's more interesting is Islamic and new Evangelical Christian groups warning people against celebrating it, due to it being Pagan, or Evil or Satanic, etc, etc.


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