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Advice needed - what would you do?

  • 14-12-2005 6:09pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭


    I was managing director of a successfull company in the early 1980's

    One day my main supplier phoned me to say that my company cheque had bounced. I could not believe it, by my calculations I had £35,000 in the company bank account. I phoned the bank and they told me that they had bounced the cheque because I was over my limit.

    I spent 2 days and nights going over the figures, I asked the bank for the last 3 months cheques and an up todate statement.

    I discovered that my signature had been forged on over £28,000 worth of cheques in the 3 month period. The forgeries were not very good.

    I called into the bank and spoke to the manager and asked him what was he going to do. He told me I would have to take it up with the banks legal department and he refused to give me any more of the back cheques that had been cashed.

    A friend of mine who worked in the Branch told me that there were 5 other similar cases in the branch.

    I took on a firm of solicitors and instructed them. 4 weeks later they withdrew as they had been threatened by the bank. The same happened with the next firm of solicitors. I eventually located a firm of solicitors who would handle the case.

    The solicitor told me I would need a handwriting expert. Every handwriting expert I contacted in Ireland refused to work with us. They said it was not worth it as they would never get any more work from the banks, their main source of income.

    I went to England and took on the Birmingham Six handwriting expert John Radley, he has an International reputation. I gave him 40 previous samples of my signature, license, passport etc. He confirmed that the signatures on the cheques had been forged. I paid both the solicitor and John Radley major fees.

    In the middle of what was going on the manager of the branch in question was sacked.

    I started a legal action against the bank for monies owed plus damages. My business had closed down and I was now in serious debt.

    I opened a new bank account in another of the main banks, it was closed down within 4 weeks, the legal departments of the main banks work together.

    After a long period of time the bank agreed to settle the case and mentioned various sums, never in writing always on the phone. I agreed to settle the case.

    I met the main legal person from the bank in my accountants office. He told me that by agreeing to the settlement that my sister who was an employee of the bank and my first cousin who also worked there would never be promoted. In other words the threat was if we pay they will never be promoted.

    My father was a director of a major semi state body. I explained the situation to him, he thought about it for a few days and came back to me and asked me to drop the case. I dropped the case. 10 days later I got a legal bill for £9,000 plus from the bank.

    At this stage my father lost his cool and phoned the chief executive of the bank to complain. They withdrew the bill. My sister was not promoted for 15 years, in fact she was moved from department to department and branch to branch.

    I still feel very sore about it all, should the banks be allowed threaten people with legitimate claims. I wonder in how many more cases they have done this.

    What would you do now?


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 779 ✭✭✭homeOwner


    Jaysus!

    I'd try the legal route again. You've nothing to loose. Its now 15 years on and the damage to your sister's career has already been done by the sounds of it. Get the handwriting expert you originally paid and represent yourself in court. That way you wont have to pay for a barrister. If you loose you are no worse off than you are now and hopefully not out of pocket too much. Persuming that you can represent yourself in court in this country.

    If that fails go to the newspapers/Joe Duffy/anyone who will listen and name and shame the bank and the people involved. The public needs to know about these stories. The banks are walking all over everyone.


  • Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭Brendan552004


    Hi homeowner,

    Thank you for your reply, I do not think I can sue them, the six year legal rule may apply, I would have to look for special dispensation because they threatened me.

    I still do not have a personal account in any bank in Ireland.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,294 ✭✭✭OfflerCrocGod


    Name the banks please.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,142 ✭✭✭TempestSabre


    I think I'd be trying to get a keen investigative reporter onside and do some digging with the aim of building a legal case and rattling some cages.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,755 ✭✭✭masterK


    You could try publicise the case by writing to the major newspapers and television stations. The media are not exactly fond of the finincial institutions in this country.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,047 ✭✭✭Culchie


    I'd remove that post quickly (for your own good)


  • Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭Brendan552004


    Hi Culchie,

    I took your advice and removed the Name & Shame info.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,047 ✭✭✭Culchie


    Good Man,

    I'd say Joe Duffy would love to get stuck into that story.

    Have you got any advice from Ombudsman's office?


  • Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭Brendan552004


    Hi Culchie,

    Ombudsman's office only handles Government departments and semi-states. They told me it comes under the remit of IFSRA. What I would like to know is, how many more people did the banking fraternity use threats to force the withdraw of legal cases. I would think that I was not the only one.

    What other forms of threats did they use?
    How widespread was the practise?
    Is it still going on today?

    If IFSRA could get access to their legal departments, it would be intersesting to see the ratio of claims against cases settled.


  • Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭Brendan552004


    I have contacted IFSRA and asked for their help.

    Correction: the handwriting expert's name was Robert Radley


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  • Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭ButtermilkJack


    Hi. First of all, if that story is true, and I suspect every bit of it is, then I don't understand why you have to resort to discussion boards for advice. Spray this bloody news all over the tabloids, broadsheets, radio, tv and everywhere else you can think of. AND NAME AND SHAME EVERYONE INVOLVED! What do you have to lose. You were robbed, threatened and abused. DO NOT TAKE SOMETHING LIKE THIS LYING DOWN.

    I cant believe you honestly thought that if you dropped the case then your sister et al would not be affected. That was very naive. The damage was done the first time you contacted them. They were never going to promote them again, regardless. I would advise your sister to get your previous accountant as a witness to what the bank legal guy said in his office about her career and sue the bank immediately for lost earnings. Anyway I dont want to rub salt in the wounds so I'll move on.

    Basically, attack the Shysters and get back every penny you lost. Plus lost earnings. Theoretically that business could have grown into a multi-million euro corporation. Nobody can tell you otherwise.

    These things only happen because people get away with it.

    I really dont understand why you dont go public with this. Why?

    EDIT: I understand you must be frustrated with the whole thing at this stage, and that my hot-headedness does not help, but this is a very serious matter and I wish you every success with it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭Brendan552004


    Thank you for your reply.

    My sister who also happens to be my godchild knows nothing about what went on. My father asked me not to tell her. His view was that my sisters life was her own.

    I met the banks legal person in the back office of my accountants. The accountant was not present it was one to one. On mature reflection the fact may be that the two of them set it up. They are both members of the same golf club. The accountant may have got a favour back from the bank at a later stage.

    I met the bank manager who was sacked a number of years ago, he had bought a small hotel in Glenbeigh Co. Kerry. He apologised to me for what had gone on.

    I know I can go the media route, I publish the Irish Media Guide but I have to be carefull of libel, Joe Duffy will be carefull too.

    I have asked IFSRA to request my file from the bank's legal department, they have the power, I have also asked them to review the cases and reasons why cases were dropped in the bank.


  • Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭ButtermilkJack


    My sister who also happens to be my godchild knows nothing about what went on. My father asked me not to tell her. His view was that my sisters life was her own....
    Ok. Fair enough. Probably no harm to have kept it that way. On consideration though, her life was not really her own if it was being mapped out by someone else. I dont want to fan the flames but you only get one life, and if I found out mine was being manipulated like that I would become very aggressive. Perhaps a good idea to have kept it quiet.

    I really do feel for you now. It seems like even your accountant may have been in on it. Are these guys still alive today? Is the Financial Regulator your only option now. They don't seem to have many powers at all.


  • Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭Brendan552004


    They are all alive except for the Bank Manager. The legal person still works in the bank. What I would love to get a hold of is the communication from the CEO to the legal person requesting that the banks legal bill should be withdrawn. The former CEO is still alive.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 779 ✭✭✭homeOwner


    My sister who also happens to be my godchild knows nothing about what went on. My father asked me not to tell her. His view was that my sisters life was her own.

    I know its all in the past and whatever, but if I were your sister I would be extremely annoyed with both of you for keeping somehting like this to yourselves. Your involvement with the bank she worked in was directly responsible for her not being promoted, or so it would seem. Do you think it was better for her all these years to think she was crap at her job, or unpopular or held back because of any number of reasons and perhaps has left her feeling inadequet, unappreciated or basically that people dont like her, instead of her knowing the real reasons and that it had nothing to do with her. She could have made a decision for herself to perhaps move to another job rather than devote her working life to a company where the odds were stacked against her from the beginning.

    I hate to make gross generalisations and this is really nothing to do with your original post, but I think that your actions were typical of irish society back in the 70s and 80s where families had secrets from each other and certain things were talked about in hushed tones. My family had secrets too, and having found out about them later in life I really resented my parents for not telling me back when it happened. It made me feel my family was wierd and different and that certain topics couldnt be talked about. Sorry for the rant and the off topic post!

    Good luck in your quest for justice. I really hope you resolve this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭ButtermilkJack


    homeOwner wrote:
    ...if I were your sister I would be extremely annoyed with both of you for keeping somehting like this to yourselves. Your involvement with the bank she worked in was directly responsible for her not being promoted, or so it would seem. Do you think it was better for her all these years to think she was crap at her job, or unpopular or held back because of any number of reasons and perhaps has left her feeling inadequet, unappreciated or basically that people dont like her, instead of her knowing the real reasons and that it had nothing to do with her. She could have made a decision for herself to perhaps move to another job rather than devote her working life to a company where the odds were stacked against her from the beginning....
    I completely agree. I was afraid to say it earlier because I didn't want brendan to feel any worse (considering it was so long ago). He's got enough to deal with.

    But now that you've said it... :o


  • Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭Brendan552004


    I get your point, would it do any good to tell her now. I actually trusted the bank that if I withdrew my case her future would not be affected.

    The fact is that I do not know if she is good at her job, she may have been moved because she did not get on with people. My politics would be a fair bit to the left of centre, hers would be a fair bit to the right of centre and that would involve religion too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭ButtermilkJack


    Is your sister working in the bank still? If not then its up to you whether you tell her or not. It's not going to make any difference to her career now.

    If she is, and she's still at the stage where she (thinks she) can go places, then perhaps its time to come clean. Although if she were to quit/get fired and not be able to find replacement work then this would obviously makes things unneccessarily difficult.

    My main focus would be on building a case against the bank.

    Would it be of any use to try and track where the forged cheques ended up? You might find they found a home in a 'business' owned by your bank manager/accountant. This would explain their staunch resistance to helping you reclaim your funds.

    Failing that I would offer the legal guy (who still works in the bank) half of all funds/awards you get from a court if he agrees to give you everything you need to win the case. I'm sure he would be more than happy with a few hundred thousand euros. Or more...

    Failing that..... resort to their level. Use ANY MEANS NECCESSARY to gain the documents/evidence you need.


  • Registered Users Posts: 168 ✭✭Brendan552004


    I have just been contacted by IFSRA, they are contacting tommorrow and taking up the case, I will keep you posted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭ButtermilkJack


    I have just been contacted by IFSRA, they are contacting tommorrow and taking up the case, I will keep you posted.
    Good luck with everything. Hope it all works out for you!


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,689 ✭✭✭shepthedog


    Wow an amazing story and one that would make a movie nevermind a newspaper article.

    This definitely should not be allowed to go on unresolved even for your own peace of mind.. Contact absolutely everyone u can.. Media, legal.. Find someone will to take this all the way.. Times are much different now to back then and the banks dont have such a stranglehold of the market..
    Good luck and keep this updated..


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,399 ✭✭✭kluivert


    Sorry...was it the banks that forged the cheques.

    Would you not sue the person who forged the cheques.

    Sorry if am taking the wrong angle on this.

    By the way....i would have went to the central bank with my complaint.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,910 ✭✭✭Tippex


    Brendan,

    Keep us updated about how this progresses with the IFSRA I know we all want to see you get this resolved.

    Best of luck.


  • Registered Users Posts: 632 ✭✭✭ButtermilkJack


    Hey Brendan, any update so far?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,046 ✭✭✭democrates


    If your sister is still working there imho she needs to know the truth, difficult as it will be to fess up. It will damage your relationship somewhat. You know what it's like to see your efforts destroyed at the hands of others, and she may choose to level that accusation at you, but in time she should gain perspective on your predicament and accept that her career may not have been very different had your bank battle never happened, but don't argue that point, apologise profusely and accept her right to be angry. She may want to get in on the legal action if she feels her career was unfairly managed out of malice, though that would be exceptionally hard to prove unless she can get admissable evidence.

    Someone suggested the central bank as recourse but I'd have no confidence given what they've presided over heretofore, they seem to be primarily interested in protecting the Irish Banking brand. Prime Time Investigates may be interested in his kind of story, and doesn't Eddie Hobbs give commmercial advice? Or have you thought about asking an opposition td for advice/help?

    May be dead ends but they may grease some wheels, an interested td could keep a wobbly IFSRA on the case.

    If you come to decision time again over pursuiing this, weigh the cost/benefit. How much in damages could you get if you win? How could you prove the business would have survived anyway, for how long and how well? Otoh how much could you lose? Recall the cost paid by previous Davids who dared to take on goliaths be they big pharma, big tobacco, government etc. Even when cases are won the price David pays in his private life can outweigh the benefit.
    Would it be more fruitful for your future years to focus on new ventures/investments that could make serious money and a feelgood factor instead of this stressful trial? Lot's of people will cheer you on to battle and God knows I'd love to see the culprits pay for their wrongdoings, but put yourself and your loved ones hapiness first would be my advice.

    How about going into business with your sister offering a similar service to bankcheck of Co. Down? She might be well motivated. Birds, stone...


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