MFT?

garymt · 08-11-2020 3:08pm #1

Apologies if this question has been answered previously....

Does anyone know of a CNC shop that can supply a replacement MFT- type top?

None of the UK suppliers deliver outside the country, even one based in NI.
Nothing fancy - I only really require a few accurately placed holes to support a fence and track to enable 90deg cuts.

Calahonda52 · 08-11-2020 5:55pm

Hva you looked at the u tubes video about making your own

garymt · 08-11-2020 6:41pm

Yes - but i decided that for the price (abt 40GBP), it wasn't worth the hassle (and the potential for inaccuracy!).
But it may be the only option in the end....

glynf · 08-11-2020 8:36pm

garymt wrote: »

Apologies if this question has been answered previously....

Does anyone know of a CNC shop that can supply a replacement MFT- type top?

None of the UK suppliers deliver outside the country, even one based in NI.
Nothing fancy - I only really require a few accurately placed holes to support a fence and track to enable 90deg cuts.

Not sure where you are based, but there is a company in Walkinstown called Dublin Custom carcass that do custom kitchen carcasses. Their website mentions CNC cut parts, may be worth asking them.

I have not used them, but they were highly recommended when I was shopping about for supply only units for our kitchen.

May be well worth a look and if you do contact them let us know how you get on, I was thinking about building a MFT knock off based on 8020 extruded aluminum with a MDF top. Not keen on shelling out €500 for one

chillyspoon · 08-11-2020 10:10pm

Another option is to invest in a jig, that'll give you confidence in the accuracy and the ability to produce multiple tops:

- Cheapest one I've found (and never seen before): https://www.247wood.nl/en/mft-plunge-router-jig-20mm-complete-set/a3957
- Trend's one is mid-range apparently!: https://www.trenddirectuk.com/mft-jig
- The Parf Guide System is a step up in both quality and price: https://www.axminstertools.com/ie/ujk-technology-parf-guide-system-mkii-104779

08-11-2020 10:46pm

chillyspoon wrote: »

Another option is to invest in a jig, that'll give you confidence in the accuracy and the ability to produce multiple tops:

- Cheapest one I've found (and never seen before): https://www.247wood.nl/en/mft-plunge-router-jig-20mm-complete-set/a3957
- Trend's one is mid-range apparently!: https://www.trenddirectuk.com/mft-jig
- The Parf Guide System is a step up in both quality and price: https://www.axminstertools.com/ie/ujk-technology-parf-guide-system-mkii-104779

I'm with Chilly on this one. I have the Parf Guide II set and it's a ballbuster pricetag, but will last me forever now. I previously had someone load one of the mft slab CNC programs and run it on their machine. Total waste of money and effort, as while the machine was accurate, the finish of the routed holes was just not accurate enough to work with the 20mm dogs to give a snug fit. .1-.2mm out is too much, yet it's perfectly fine for the majority of production full sheet machines routing MDF.

Anyway, not saying the Parf system is the one to buy necessarily, but I'd just get some sort of guide and do it myself if I were you. I went with the Parf as it doesn't need me to be running a router - the drill setup was to my liking for this purpose, but one of those router templates and a suitable cutter would be fine too. Just factor in the router bit as an additional cost along with the jig.

chillyspoon · 08-11-2020 11:06pm

Something else I'll point out about the Parf Guide system is that it can be used for other things too - the system includes a couple of dogs and long rules that connect to take advantage of Pythagoras to get the angles right (pun!). I've since used the rules for all manner of whacky things, from spacing dowels in long workpieces to acting as low profile router guides, and the dogs are exactly that, a couple of perfectly accurate stainless steel dogs.

The first test piece I cut ended up as a very flexible panel sled for my tablesaw and is still in regular use: https://www.chillyspoon.com/blog/2019/10/24/making-an-mft-style-panel-sled-in-10-minutes

Like JayZeus I'm not saying "go out and buy the Parf Guide system" because it is indeed nut clenchingly expensive but I considered it a good investment for me because I could see future uses.

In fact, I'm half-way through updating my bench and one of the steps will be a panel flush with my inner-vise face that I'll cut two rows of dog holes in - using the Parf Guide.

Calahonda52 · 09-11-2020 7:50pm

IT is a nut cracker price but is does what it says it will, no questions asked, every time, and as CS says, once you have it......
In any event setting up a cnc machine for a one off will not be cheap

garymt · 10-11-2020 12:19am

Calahonda52 wrote: »

IT is a nut cracker price but is does what it says it will, no questions asked, every time, and as CS says, once you have it......
In any event setting up a cnc machine for a one off will not be cheap

Thank you all for the comprehensive replies - the Parf system is a clear winner, in spite of price - my only problem is I can't see myself ever using it again (unless mft top had to be replaced).
A Festool top might even be cheaper!
I may experiment as per Keith Browns video, and see what level of accuracy is achievable........

10-11-2020 12:39am

If all you need is a simple 90 degree crosscut, there are very accurate, easy to make and super affordable options such as this:

monkeynuz · 10-11-2020 7:12am

Would this do?

https://www.sautershop.com/perforated-plate-mft/3-lp-f-495543?c=13440

They also do their own versions with additional hole placements.

garymt · 10-11-2020 6:50pm

Thanks, everyone, for the contributions - that video from Fine Woodworking looks very interesting..........

bamayang · 29-12-2020 9:20pm

Hi all, thinking strongly about going the track saw route. Have a cheap rubbish table saw which I have been threatening to upgrade for a year or two now, was looking at €800ish to get a reasonably decent one.
But thinking about it recently, I don’t really have that much need for a table saw and track saw might be much more useful.
Can anyone recommend what model you use?
Is an MFT essential to get the benefit from it?
What are the essential add one that I should be calculating into the cost e.g dogs etc?
Thanks I’m advance.

29-12-2020 9:38pm

Do you have a specific upper limit you want to work within cost wise? If so, what is it? Will you work in one place, or does it all need to be easily and regularly portable?

I have an MFT/3 and some DIY Parf'ed tops, and a range of dogs and rails. There's a lot of overlap in capability. If you can share some of 'how' you'll want to work, I'll be happy to give some pointers.

As far as the saw goes, there's really only one that I'd give a wholehearted recommendation for and that's the Festool TS55. There are some good options at lower prices, but the TS55 really has earned and deserves the reputation it has amongst those who have used one. If it's not badly abused, I can see it being as close to a lifetime tool as any power tool can be.

the_pen_turner · 29-12-2020 10:02pm

i have a ts55. its great. best tool i ever bought. saying that i also have a dewalt 54v tracksaw that gets used a lot more because its cordless and is perfect for slightly less important cuts. i will use the festool on worktops and prefinished kitchen doors etc.

i never fell in love with the mft top. i have an older festool mft 800 that is used regularly as a clamping table but not realy for cutting on with the dogs or rail attached.
i rather a rail square
i use the clamping elements and dogs a lot for holding parts

bamayang · 29-12-2020 10:19pm

JayZeus wrote: »

Do you have a specific upper limit you want to work within cost wise? If so, what is it? Will you work in one place, or does it all need to be easily and regularly portable?

I have an MFT/3 and some DIY Parf'ed tops, and a range of dogs and rails. There's a lot of overlap in capability. If you can share some of 'how' you'll want to work, I'll be happy to give some pointers.

As far as the saw goes, there's really only one that I'd give a wholehearted recommendation for and that's the Festool TS55. There are some good options at lower prices, but the TS55 really has earned and deserves the reputation it has amongst those who have used one. If it's not badly abused, I can see it being as close to a lifetime tool as any power tool can be.

Thanks for the replies.
I’d probably accept spending up towards €1k between saw, tracks, dogs and other bits. I’d be looking at this as a long long term investment that I’d use for ever more. A grand seems like a lot when you say it out loud, but you’d prob spend 5/600 going for a cheaper option that you then might end up upgrading again in years to come. I’ve recently come to the conclusion that you should “buy once and cry once” with tools.
Lots of different jobs in mind I suppose but wardrobe units or bunk bed style builds for kids are in my mind.
I like doing bits of furniture also like coffe tables and the like.
Probably important to note though, it’ll only ever be a hobby or diy work.
Don’t really need much portability, have a reasonable sized work shop and do everything from there. Had thought about a table saw, but I hate using them, and especially hate trying to man handle large sheets onto them.

bamayang · 29-12-2020 10:20pm

the_pen_turner wrote: »

i have a ts55. its great. best tool i ever bought. saying that i also have a dewalt 54v tracksaw that gets used a lot more because its cordless and is perfect for slightly less important cuts. i will use the festool on worktops and prefinished kitchen doors etc.

i never fell in love with the mft top. i have an older festool mft 800 that is used regularly as a clamping table but not realy for cutting on with the dogs or rail attached.
i rather a rail square
i use the clamping elements and dogs a lot for holding parts

If your cutting something then that needs to be 100% square how do you do that with a track saw and not use an mft? Like if you were making cabinets, do you just measure out the size and drop the track down on the cut line? I’ve no experience with track saws, but in my head I feel this would lead to out-of-square cuts.

the_pen_turner · 29-12-2020 10:27pm

bamayang wrote: »

If your cutting something then that needs to be 100% square how do you do that with a track saw and not use an mft? Like if you were making cabinets, do you just measure out the size and drop the track down on the cut line? I’ve no experience with track saws, but in my head I feel this would lead to out-of-square cuts.

i use a rail square. it attaches to the rail to give you a 90 degree fench to hold against the side of the board. i cant fault it for accuracy.

29-12-2020 10:51pm

TS55 REBQ, with 48 tooth blade, second 28 tooth blade, FS1400/2 guide rail, Systainer etc. - €584 plus delivery (€15 or so for the order)

https://www.dictum.com/en/power-tools-sawing/set-festool-plunge-cut-saw-ts-55-rebq-plus-fs-extra-universal-saw-blade-w28-729012

Second FS1400/2 guide rail - €99

https://www.dictum.com/en/festool/festool-guide-rail-fs-14002-706840

2 x Guide Rail connectors @ €15 each:

https://www.dictum.com/en/festool/festool-connecting-piece-fsv-706844?c=0

So that's €730 for those bits, leaving you with the option of a guide rail square like this for €119:

https://www.dictum.com/en/festool/festool-angle-stop-fs-wa900-729389?c=3016

Or my recommendation for a home workshop setup, the Parfguide MKII at €224 plus a sheet of MDF and two pairs of dogs:

https://www.dictum.com/en/drill-chucking-tools-bakh/ujk-parfguide-system-mk-ii-720774

Get a pair of long and at least a pair of short (or better still, 2 pairs of short) dogs and you're all set. €35-50 for those.

The one thing that's not included there is a dust extractor of some sort of course. Plenty of options there and you probably have something already. If you get the opportunity in future, look at any of the festool options, as they're also incredibly good once you get past the pricetags. But for between €850-1000 you'll have a tracksaw that will last you decades and give you immense satisfaction compared with trying to handle sheet goods on a DIY type tablesaw.

Also, keep in mind that with the Festool stuff, all you have to do is take care of it and you basically lose next to nothing on depreciation if you decide to sell it on.

bamayang · 29-12-2020 11:06pm

JayZeus wrote: »

TS55 REBQ, with 48 tooth blade, second 28 tooth blade, FS1400/2 guide rail, Systainer etc. - €584 plus delivery (€15 or so for the order)

https://www.dictum.com/en/power-tools-sawing/set-festool-plunge-cut-saw-ts-55-rebq-plus-fs-extra-universal-saw-blade-w28-729012

Second FS1400/2 guide rail - €99

https://www.dictum.com/en/festool/festool-guide-rail-fs-14002-706840

2 x Guide Rail connectors @ €15 each:

https://www.dictum.com/en/festool/festool-connecting-piece-fsv-706844?c=0

So that's €730 for those bits, leaving you with the option of a guide rail square like this for €119:

https://www.dictum.com/en/festool/festool-angle-stop-fs-wa900-729389?c=3016

Or my recommendation for a home workshop setup, the Parfguide MKII at €224 plus a sheet of MDF and two pairs of dogs:

https://www.dictum.com/en/drill-chucking-tools-bakh/ujk-parfguide-system-mk-ii-720774

Get a pair of long and at least a pair of short (or better still, 2 pairs of short) dogs and you're all set. €35-50 for those.

The one thing that's not included there is a dust extractor of some sort of course. Plenty of options there and you probably have something already. If you get the opportunity in future, look at any of the festool options, as they're also incredibly good once you get past the pricetags. But for between €850-1000 you'll have a tracksaw that will last you decades and give you immense satisfaction compared with trying to handle sheet goods on a DIY type tablesaw.

Also, keep in mind that with the Festool stuff, all you have to do is take care of it and you basically lose next to nothing on depreciation if you decide to sell it on.

Thank you very much, that’s incredibly detailed. I haven’t come across Dictum before, are they better value than elsewhere?
I had thought about the Bosh saw as well, but considering the RAVE reviews Festool gets, it doesn’t seem worth it for the very small savings involved.

I know a guy with the Parf system, so getting a loan of that to do one MFT table would save me a little spend.

Thanks again for that.

29-12-2020 11:14pm

bamayang wrote: »

Thank you very much, that’s incredibly detailed. I haven’t come across Dictum before, are they better value than elsewhere?
I had thought about the Bosh saw as well, but considering the RAVE reviews Festool gets, it doesn’t seem worth it for the very small savings involved.

I know a guy with the Parf system, so getting a loan of that to do one MFT table would save me a little spend.

Thanks again for that.

Getting the loan of the Parf system is great alright! I'd add that rail square in that case, if you have it in the budget. It's dead handy for those times you want a square cut but can't set up the workpiece on the MFT.

Dictum are great to deal with. German, in every sense. You might save a couple of tenners shopping elsewhere around Europe, but their efficiency and customer service is generally well worth it. They also never say something is in stock and then leave you waiting while it's back ordered. When you order from them, it'll ship out next working day, as it should.

They'll also do the Festool warranty registration for you, something which is often overlooked. That essentially provides you with 3 years of wear and tear included warranty (not on consumables like blades), AND theft insurance. If something you buy new is stolen, and it was registered to you by the dealer, you file a report with the Gardaí/Police and Festool will replace it for you on receipt of the report and an excess payment, usually around €100. You're back in business in no time, without the hit on your home insurance for example. That alone is worth a little extra IMHO, even for a hobby woodworker.

Keep us posted anyway!

the_pen_turner · 29-12-2020 11:17pm

JayZeus wrote: »

Getting the loan of the Parf system is great alright! I'd add that rail square in that case, if you have it in the budget. It's dead handy for those times you want a square cut but can't set up the workpiece on the MFT.

Dictum are great to deal with. German, in every sense. You might save a couple of tenners shopping elsewhere around Europe, but their efficiency and customer service is generally well worth it. They also never say something is in stock and then leave you waiting while it's back ordered. When you order from them, it'll ship out next working day, as it should.

They'll also do the Festool warranty registration for you, something which is often overlooked. That essentially provides you with 3 years of wear and tear included warranty (not on consumables like blades), AND theft insurance. If something you buy new is stolen, and it was registered to you by the dealer, you file a report with the Gardaí/Police and Festool will replace it for you on receipt of the report and an excess payment, usually around €100. You're back in business in no time, without the hit on your home insurance for example. That alone is worth a little extra IMHO, even for a hobby woodworker.

Keep us posted anyway!

i havent bought from dictum in years. im afraid to go to their site, my bank account could take a battering.

festool are stopping dealers registering for some reason in the new year . something to do with gdpr or similar. strange considering they have all the info anyway to sent it to you

30-12-2020 12:04am

I find myself alternating between Dictum and Fine-Tools these days. They never let me down. The service they provide is exemplary.

I just registered the warranty myself via the MyFestool app for a new TXS (didn't go through when the dealer tried) and it was a doddle, so I won't mind if the dealers can't do it any more. It's pretty painless, but the convenience was good to have. GDPR doesn't get close to how finicky the privacy laws are in Germany, so I'm not surprised a spanner's been thrown in the works eventually.

monkeynuz · 30-12-2020 12:23am

bamayang wrote: »

If your cutting something then that needs to be 100% square how do you do that with a track saw and not use an mft? Like if you were making cabinets, do you just measure out the size and drop the track down on the cut line? I’ve no experience with track saws, but in my head I feel this would lead to out-of-square cuts.

Rather ironically I was watching this video earlier today https://youtu.be/3C8XSWliOys it may help you decide or at least answer some questions.

the_pen_turner · 30-12-2020 12:28am

monkeynuz wrote: »

Rather ironically I was watching this video earlier today https://youtu.be/3C8XSWliOys it may help you decide or at least answer some questions.

peter millard has some great videos on the tracksaw. well worth watching a few hours of it

monkeynuz · 30-12-2020 12:33am

the_pen_turner wrote: »

peter millard has some great videos on the tracksaw. well worth watching a few hours of it

I don’t mind Peter parfitt of the new Brit workshop either.

the_pen_turner · 30-12-2020 12:35am

monkeynuz wrote: »

I don’t mind Peter parfitt of the new Brit workshop either.

he is great on his parf system. great calming voice

glynf · 30-12-2020 1:02am

bamayang wrote: »

Thanks for the replies.
I’d probably accept spending up towards €1k between saw, tracks, dogs and other bits. I’d be looking at this as a long long term investment that I’d use for ever more. A grand seems like a lot when you say it out loud, but you’d prob spend 5/600 going for a cheaper option that you then might end up upgrading again in years to come. I’ve recently come to the conclusion that you should “buy once and cry once” with tools.
Lots of different jobs in mind I suppose but wardrobe units or bunk bed style builds for kids are in my mind.
I like doing bits of furniture also like coffe tables and the like.
Probably important to note though, it’ll only ever be a hobby or diy work.
Don’t really need much portability, have a reasonable sized work shop and do everything from there. Had thought about a table saw, but I hate using them, and especially hate trying to man handle large sheets onto them.

I had the Festool TS 55 for a few years, excellent saw-you would not regret buying it. I sold it on and got this Mafell MT55 kit inc 800, 1600 & bevel rails, two re-branded bessy clamps and a carry bag from D&M for about €600 delivered ex Vat. I got TS 55 for €400 inc two rails within hours of listing it (so you will mostly get your money back which is good to know in case you don't like it). it was well worth the €200 to upgrade for me.

I loved the TS 55, used it for a lot of bits about the house, wardrobes and a murphy bed, coffee table, shelves etc. and it was brilliant-safe & easy to use, and accurate.

Using the Mafell is very similar, more or less identical apart from some of the controls-the depth adjustment is a bit finicky compared to the Festool for example; it has a lot more poke compared to the Festool (1400W motor), and the rail joiner is much handier to use and the blade change is more straightforward-though the Mafell blades are saucy to buy.

I would suggest having as look at one if you are spending up to €1K, both saws are excellent. I did most of my cutting on a sheet of 70mm Kingspan, thought about the MFT but its a lot of money for what it is IMO.

30-12-2020 1:12am

Good to have alternatives Glyn.

I'd keep in mind that you can only use the Mafell on their rails. And things like the splinterguard can only be bought from them and could be a bit finicky to replace, although I don't have experience of that myself. I've done as Peter Millard suggested (I think it was him) and repositioned the ones on the Festool rails a couple of times before replacing, and then used the Makita 5M long splinterguard as a very affordable alternative.

And did I understand correctly that the options for 3rd party rail accessories are a bit limited for the Mafell compared to Festool?

I also quite like being able to use the back of the Festool rail as a guide for my router or biscuit jointer, and having the option to add the festool router and jigsaw guides in future appeals also. I like when things do double duty really well.

Not picking holes, genuine questions as you have the experience with both to be able to answer!

glynf · 30-12-2020 1:46am

The Mafell will run on Festool rails, there is a black plastic strip on the base you can remove by undoing a few grub screws-they even put a green coloured line on it

The Bosch are the only other brand that can use the Mafell rails though.

Not had to change it yet, but the splinter guard works out at €25 for 3.5M, its a more flexible type rubber than the FS adhesive stuff, so it shouldn't ding up as easy; it slides in from the end so no messing about cleaning off the old adhesive.

I have not looked into getting a rail square, the sliding bevel short rail works perfectly for 90 deg cuts. Benchdogs have a rail square for the Bosch/Mafell rails for €120 though.

The Mafell rails are a lot thinner than the Festool rails, I was worried rthat they would be flimsy but so far they're great; easier to handle as they are lighter, but as you pointed out they do not have that heavy extrusion on the back that works as a great straight reference edge. However, the rail joiner is brilliant so I would take the trade off. You are absolutely right about sticking the the Festool track if planning to go down the green route re. routers and jigsaws.

the_pen_turner · 30-12-2020 11:19am

the mafell is the rolls royce of track saws. but its over kill for most users (even pro users).
i would definetly stick to the festool patern rails due to the accesories availible. but buy makita rails instead . they are cheaper and have a better splinter guide strip and their rail is 1500mm long rather than 1400mm, that is a huge diference when cutting a 1220mm sheet.

MFT?

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