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Croke park agreement....... Synopsis???

  • 24-05-2010 12:07pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 529 ✭✭✭


    In a nutshell could some explain how this croke park agreement will affect people working for the government?


«1

Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    To start, as I understand it, they will have no further paycuts til 2014, they need to accept changes in work practices, and they also have to accept decentralisation as necessary. Possibly there will be no redundancies either.
    Off the top of my head, that's all I can think of and I'm open to correction. I've no doubt other boards members will have more information.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,553 ✭✭✭Banned Account


    In a nutshell, they have to come back to the land of the living or there will be a terribly inconvenient rumpus.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    The obvious argument being that they have a guaranteed job with no paycuts for the next 4 years, which is more than what most of us have.


  • Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,246 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    Only to add to what Dan said which is what PS appear to be in arms over; the government reserves the right for more cuts if the over all savings and development of the economy is not going according to plan. Second part is that the unions can/should not (threaten to) strike for the duration of the deal.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,627 ✭✭✭RichardAnd


    The issue most PS workers have with it is what we all know at heart. The government will not honour their side of the deal. To be fair, the unions probably wouldn't either though.

    I sometimes wonder if the word honour means anything any more :S.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    Nody wrote: »
    Only to add to what Dan said which is what PS appear to be in arms over; the government reserves the right for more cuts if the over all savings and development of the economy is not going according to plan. Second part is that the unions can/should not (threaten to) strike for the duration of the deal.
    It's as simple as that, the deal is to give them the power to make the cuts themselves instead of the govt having to do it. And here we are 6 months away from the next budget by which time they have to have saved 3 Bn and they havn't the thing even fully voted on yet.

    How long does it take public sector people to get a job done, forever if the vote on the deal is the norm. Efficient, my arse

    Budget time we will be back to the same argument again. Unions won't have savings made and the govt will start slashing wages again. That is if they agree to the deal

    If they don't agree to the deal well the Govt will start slashing wages again.

    I think we can see a bit of a trend here


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,882 ✭✭✭granturismo


    dan_d wrote: »
    The obvious argument being that they have a guaranteed job with no paycuts for the next 4 years, which is more than what most of us have.

    No more paycuts is dependant on government finances. If there is a Yes vote and the government say they have to cut the public sector wage bill again then the Croke Park deal allows them.

    Regardless of whether the deal in accepted or rejected by union members, the government will not be restricted in cutting civil/public service wage bills.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    No more paycuts is dependant on government finances. If there is a Yes vote and the government say they have to cut the public sector wage bill again then the Croke Park deal allows them.

    Regardless of whether the deal in accepted or rejected by union members, the government will not be restricted in cutting civil/public service wage bills.

    Thanks....I was open to correction!Bit fuzzy on some details.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,218 ✭✭✭beeno67


    No more paycuts is dependant on government finances. If there is a Yes vote and the government say they have to cut the public sector wage bill again then the Croke Park deal allows them.

    Regardless of whether the deal in accepted or rejected by union members, the government will not be restricted in cutting civil/public service wage bills.

    Yes it will. The government will not have pay cuts unless unforeseen ecconomic circumstances. Considering you can argue that the country going bankrupt is not unforeseen then any pay cuts leaves the unions open to ignore the deal.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    Unions won't have savings made

    It is not the business of unions to manage the public service, that is the business of government.

    It is too easy for the wasters at the top to sit on their ár5e and wring their hands saying that the nasty unions won't let us do anything, when they never had any intention of doing anything useful anyway.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 725 ✭✭✭rightwingdub


    Guarantted jobs for life, no compulsory redundancies, the wasters who spend their days drinking coffee will still be permanently unfireable jobs:mad:


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,857 ✭✭✭Spudmonkey


    ardmacha wrote: »
    It is not the business of unions to manage the public service, that is the business of government.

    It is too easy for the wasters at the top to sit on their ár5e and wring their hands saying that the nasty unions won't let us do anything, when they never had any intention of doing anything useful anyway.

    You are right. They want all of the rewards and none of the work.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 959 ✭✭✭changes


    No more paycuts is dependant on government finances. If there is a Yes vote and the government say they have to cut the public sector wage bill again then the Croke Park deal allows them.

    Regardless of whether the deal in accepted or rejected by union members, the government will not be restricted in cutting civil/public service wage bills.

    Paycuts with anything other than the IMF sitting across the table from the two brians wearing stern faces will result in industrial action and the deal out the window imo.

    Simply having Brian Lenihan saying at budget time that things are a little tight therefore we are going to have to cut PS pay again will not be accepted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 725 ✭✭✭rightwingdub


    changes wrote: »
    Paycuts with anything other than the IMF sitting across the table from the two brians wearing stern faces will result in industrial action and the deal out the window imo.

    Simply having Brian Lenihan saying at budget time that things are a little tight therefore we are going to have to cut PS pay again will not be accepted.

    You do realise that you would have no public support for strike action, the country is broke, did you read what Morgan Kelly said about the possibility of Ireland going broke.


  • Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭BeardyFunzo


    Summary of the agreement:

    1. Reduction in Public Service numbers
    Recruitment ban stays

    2. Redeployment in the integrated Public Service
    Self explanatory

    3. Reconfiguring the design and delivery of Public Services
    Needed because of 1 and in general

    4. Performance and Skills
    Linking of increments and promotion to merit

    5. Public Service Pay Policy
    No Paycuts till 2014

    6. Performance Verification
    Independent chaired committee oversight to ensure 1-4 happen

    7. Mechanism to Resolve Disagreements
    A mechanism to resovel disputes quickly using LRC is necessary

    8. Stable Industrial Relations Climate
    No striking please.

    9. Some pension stuff that i don't have proper details of to hand.

    10.' The implementation of this Agreement is subject to no currently unforeseen budgetary de-terioration.'

    Not present in the agreement much to some posters disappointment:

    Punch a public servant day.

    Agreement that all public servant must wear bright pink uniforms so that they can be spat at whilst walking down the street.

    Electric shock collars to prevent public servants from blinking for longer than 0.05seconds.


  • Registered Users Posts: 215 ✭✭dean21


    It's as simple as that, the deal is to give them the power to make the cuts themselves instead of the govt having to do it. And here we are 6 months away from the next budget by which time they have to have saved 3 Bn and they havn't the thing even fully voted on yet.

    How long does it take public sector people to get a job done, forever if the vote on the deal is the norm. Efficient, my arse

    Budget time we will be back to the same argument again. Unions won't have savings made and the govt will start slashing wages again. That is if they agree to the deal

    If they don't agree to the deal well the Govt will start slashing wages again.

    I think we can see a bit of a trend here
    First of all it is SIPTU that is holding up the vote and they are more a private sector union than a public sector union so maybe you should be asking how long dose it take to get a job done in the private sector
    second there will be a wage cut and it is call a TAX rise. The goverement will have thr option of giving a pay cut to 350k workers or a tax rise on all working people, so at long last we will see the private sector give something back for what they have done to ireland


  • Registered Users Posts: 215 ✭✭dean21


    beeno67 wrote: »
    Yes it will. The government will not have pay cuts unless unforeseen ecconomic circumstances. Considering you can argue that the country going bankrupt is not unforeseen then any pay cuts leaves the unions open to ignore the deal.
    If there are unforeseen ecconomic circumstances then we will be looking at 700k on the dole


  • Registered Users Posts: 215 ✭✭dean21


    Guarantted jobs for life, no compulsory redundancies, the wasters who spend their days drinking coffee will still be permanently unfireable jobs:mad:
    i love my job


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,892 ✭✭✭Head The Wall


    dean21 wrote: »
    First of all it is SIPTU that is holding up the vote and they are more a private sector union than a public sector union so maybe you should be asking how long dose it take to get a job done in the private sector
    second there will be a wage cut and it is call a TAX rise. The goverement will have thr option of giving a pay cut to 350k workers or a tax rise on all working people, so at long last we will see the private sector give something back for what they have done to ireland

    Firstly the private sector has nothing with the Croke park deal and the majority of private sector company's act quickly to cut costs that are in it's control.

    This notion currently seems lost on PS unions, it's as if they want more wage cuts in the next budget. Do they realise if they vote in the Croke Park deal but don't have enough quantifiable savings (3BN) made and not just earmarked by Dec 2010 wages will be cut again. In my eyes the Deal allows for this to happen

    Secondly a tax rise is not a wage cut. Take home is reduced but your wage is still the same. And yes there will be some tax rises in the next budget, most people are aware of that. These taxes will affect all workers, especially low paid ones.


  • Registered Users Posts: 321 ✭✭dromdrom


    dean21 wrote: »
    First of all it is SIPTU that is holding up the vote and they are more a private sector union than a public sector union so maybe you should be asking how long dose it take to get a job done in the private sector
    second there will be a wage cut and it is call a TAX rise. The goverement will have thr option of giving a pay cut to 350k workers or a tax rise on all working people, so at long last we will see the private sector give something back for what they have done to ireland

    Ah yes the evil private sector, why can't they just disappear and leave all our hard working public servants to it, lets have no private industry and pay for our public servants with Jack O'Connor's mansion tax.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    dean21 wrote: »
    First of all it is SIPTU that is holding up the vote and they are more a private sector union than a public sector union so maybe you should be asking how long dose it take to get a job done in the private sector
    second there will be a wage cut and it is call a TAX rise. The goverement will have thr option of giving a pay cut to 350k workers or a tax rise on all working people, so at long last we will see the private sector give something back for what they have done to ireland

    A large portion of the private sector have given their jobs to allow businesses to stay open, and contributing to the country's tax. There's not much more you can ask of people.

    A wage cut is not a tax rise or vice versa. If what you are trying to say is that you end up with less money either way, then fine, you do. But they are not the same thing.

    And for the OP, before this descends into yet another thread bashing the public service, I think you get the rough idea of what's in the agreement. Unions are peddling the line that the Gov have given no guarantees and there's everything to lose. I'd like to think that people are voting against it because they feel the people at the top aren't getting hit hard enough, while they're taking all the pain....don't know whether that's true or not, but I'm an optimist! To me the overall picture is one of people who are extremely resistant to change of any sort, and who want their money back (as in their wage cuts). They won't get it back and change has to happen. The question is how bad they are prepared to let things get before the message sinks in.

    As an aside, the union bosses come out of this well (from their point of view) no matter how things go. Which also seems to be lost on their members.


  • Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭BeardyFunzo


    dan_d wrote: »
    As an aside, the union bosses come out of this well (from their point of view) no matter how things go. Which also seems to be lost on their members.

    Well any CPSU members reading this thread remember that Blair Horan came out of the talks beaming that they had secured 4 out of 5 of their aims and that he was very happy with the agreement. But the CPSU isn't happy with the deal so you shouldn't be happy with Blair Horan but no one seems to be ousting him.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,819 ✭✭✭dan_d


    Personally I'm not a member of any union or the public service, so I have no particular thoughts over Blair Horan.

    What I meant was that if the deal goes through the union bosses "look good" because they "negotiated" it. If it does not, and the Gov still go ahead and cut pay etc as a result, the union bosses can turn around any say "well we offered you the deal and you rejected it". I suppose at the end of the day it clearly shows that they are only interested in themselves and couldn't really give a damn about the members of their unions.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    ardmacha wrote: »
    It is not the business of unions to manage the public service, that is the business of government.

    It is too easy for the wasters at the top to sit on their ár5e and wring their hands saying that the nasty unions won't let us do anything, when they never had any intention of doing anything useful anyway.

    That is an overly simplistic argument and ignores the reality of twenty years of partnership when reform was meant to be carried out together by unions and management.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,154 ✭✭✭Flex


    dean21 wrote: »
    First of all it is SIPTU that is holding up the vote and they are more a private sector union than a public sector union so maybe you should be asking how long dose it take to get a job done in the private sector
    second there will be a wage cut and it is call a TAX rise. The goverement will have thr option of giving a pay cut to 350k workers or a tax rise on all working people, so at long last we will see the private sector give something back for what they have done to ireland

    Upset your 30% pay premium was slightly reduced, I guess?

    As for the Croke Park deal, it will be interesting to see how it turns out, Im still unsure about whether a rejection or acceptance of the deal is better for the country for the coming years. Furthermore it will be interesting to see what the unions who have rejected it end up doing outnumbered by other unions accepting it. What have the main reasons for rejecting the agreement been so far, the government clause for unforeseen circumstances?


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,306 ✭✭✭✭Drumpot


    Yes yes . . This could turn into a public v private sector argument . .

    How is it even an argument ?

    "Oh , if you were in my position, you would argue for fairness and for your wage" . . Which means , what exactly ? that its in the nations interest to bow to public service militia ?

    Problem is that guaranteed jobs would be something that most private sector employees would accept in the current climate . . When you have something thats too good, its difficult to see the Forrest from the trees . . If somebody told 80% of the population they would have a job in 2014, they would take it hands down . .

    Human nature means that there will never be rational, impartial discussion on this. Private sector will think that public are ignorant spoilt brats, public service will think that private sector are just bitter capitalists that got their gamble wrong . .

    When you get complacent and arrogant, you dont value what you already have, whether you are public or private sector and its been the same in boom and bust. . .

    I would sooner stop working then entertain the ridiculous demands of the unions. . I want heads to roll , I want paycuts, I want reduced costs , I want them to be brought down to the real world . . They constantly moan about how they didnt cause this mess etc etc etc . . Well they voted in the party that caused this mess. . As much as anybody, they went along with things while the going was good . . I dont remember causing the mess, but by their very argument they ignore the fact that they want ME to pay for whats happened and to subsidize the recession for THEM.

    But . .

    More then most, they still benefit from being able to keep a job. . Something they value so little . . . As much as politicians think they are simply innocent victims of the recession (hey, its happening world wide so its not totally their fault!), public servants seem to believe they should be protected from it. .

    15% paycut is nothing . . Nothing for a household that was budgeting even badly . . I know, I have had to rearrange a budget by 40% reduction in income . .


    If you could only afford a house or rent with a 15% differance, then you deserve no sympathy. If you havent bothered (which most havent) working out a budget of how it will really effect you, then screw you. . Why should I have to subsidise your LIFESTYLE. .

    Public servants have had comfort for too long .. . I never benefited from the celtic tiger (something they love to hide behind) . . FF need to show a set of balls and really put them in their place . . I dont care if they strike for 6 months . . What is hilarious and disgusting on the same level is that they pretend that their intentions is to keep the upper levels of management in check (ie they are screwing everybody, so we should be allowed to screw the rest of the country). .


  • Registered Users Posts: 254 ✭✭BeardyFunzo


    Drumpot wrote: »
    Yes yes . . This could turn into a public v private sector argument . .

    How is it even an argument ?

    If only there was really 'argument' around here. Basically it's gotten to the point where there's a bunch of people bashing the PS and the few PS people that are bothered to respond are getting more hard-line.

    This thread devolved in bashing and back bashing like it always does. No surprise. Hell I started a thread and it was immediately suggested that I go on strike and burn down a bank (nothing to do with what the thread was about but i had obviously rustled someone's feathers previously). I've seen posters proud of how they've rail-roaded threads into bashing threads.

    To answer your question 'how is this even an argument? It's not. Discussion ended here along time ago.


  • Registered Users Posts: 215 ✭✭dean21


    Firstly the private sector has nothing with the Croke park deal and the majority of private sector company's act quickly to cut costs that are in it's control.

    This notion currently seems lost on PS unions, it's as if they want more wage cuts in the next budget. Do they realise if they vote in the Croke Park deal but don't have enough quantifiable savings (3BN) made and not just earmarked by Dec 2010 wages will be cut again. In my eyes the Deal allows for this to happen

    Secondly a tax rise is not a wage cut. Take home is reduced but your wage is still the same. And yes there will be some tax rises in the next budget, most people are aware of that. These taxes will affect all workers, especially low paid ones.
    If they cut the lower paid public sector again then most of them will be entitled to FIS to top up there pay
    There is tax rises coming your way and you will be paying some form of tax on every euro you earn
    I look forward to you all moaning here in december 2010 "how we have to pay more tax to keep the public sector"


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,416 ✭✭✭Count Dooku


    dean21 wrote: »
    If they cut the lower paid public sector again then most of them will be entitled to FIS to top up there pay
    If FIS will still exist after December budget


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  • Registered Users Posts: 725 ✭✭✭rightwingdub


    If FIS will still exist after December budget

    The government won't abolish FIS in Decembers budget.


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