Boiler in house very smelly

yves · 30-03-2006 11:06pm #1

I am renting a house that has a Grant boiler inside the house in the kitchen which a mate has told me should be outside ! I find it very smelly and I mentioned this to landlord who pretty much told me to get lost ! I think it is smelling , he says no. I heard on the news last night that someone was admitted to hospital because of suspected carbon monoxide poisoning from a boiler inside the house.Apparently the windows were full of condensation and so is my place. 4 bed detached house and has vents. I kinda wanna stay in the house cos it suits - what should i do ? How does one measure if carbon monoxide is present ?

squire1 · 31-03-2006 9:23am

There are boilers that are suitable for indoors as well as out door. If you had an outdoor boiler in your kitchen, you would be dead already so maybe your mate is mistaken.

However, there should be no smell coming from the boiler. What is the smell, fuel or exhaust? Have you checked around it for leaks? Can you get access to where the exhaust is vented to outside and check to see it is not blocked or obstructed in any way. There should be a cage over the outside vent to stop anything blocking it.

If you still have concerns, get the yellow pages and find someone who will check and service the boiler. They should be serviced every year I think. They will give you a report if there is a problem and if this is the case then your lanlord should reimburse your expenses.

Don't take any chances with this, if you are in doubt, call in the professionals despite what your landlord says.

Victor · 31-03-2006 1:22pm

Get teh model number and talk to the manfacturer or try to find the manual on their website.

Make sure all vents are unblocked - this is the cause (in part) of the condensation.

If it is gas, give Bord Gáis a shout - they tend to be extremely helpful.

Again, what kind of smell.

Lex Luthor · 31-03-2006 5:58pm

If its a Grant Boiler, no doubt it is oil/kerosene type.

Carbon Monoxide is odourless gas, so thats not what you're smelling, but not saying its not there. More than likely its leaking somewhere which should be sorted by a service. Get the landlord to pay for a service. You can also buy an off-the-shelf CO monitor in Dixons for about €40. I recommend the SF detection type by Honeywell/Zellweger.

rooferPete · 01-04-2006 12:07am

Hi,

Possibly a leak where the balanced flue joins the boiler, a good service engineer should be able to tell you very quickly what the problem is and the cost of repair which as has been pointed out is most likely a good service.

Grant did make oil boilers for fitting inside the house they have a nice metal cabinet, well they were nice when new.

.

Lex Luthor · 01-04-2006 8:31am

rooferPete wrote:

Grant did make oil boilers for fitting inside the house they have a nice metal cabinet, well they were nice when new.

.

Pete, you're right, they were nice when new. Mine is now 10yrs old and I'd love to move it or get an outdorr one, but can't justify the cost at the moment. Luckily for me its in a large utility room and doesn't smell too much.

Friend of mine has an identical one and it smells too. Nature of the beast. I think they will all smell eventually, just a matter of how much you can keep it at bay.

JamesM · 01-04-2006 10:47pm

Lex Luthor wrote:

Pete, you're right, they were nice when new. Mine is now 10yrs old and I'd love to move it or get an outdorr one, but can't justify the cost at the moment. Luckily for me its in a large utility room and doesn't smell too much.

Friend of mine has an identical one and it smells too. Nature of the beast. I think they will all smell eventually, just a matter of how much you can keep it at bay.

Lex, Yves, your boiler does not have to smell ! They were designed to be in the kitchen. It is not the "Nature of the beast". An expert will know the difference between the smell of raw oil (a leak) and exhaust fumes.
Take off the front cover and check for an oil leak. Most smells are from a leak of kerosene. If you cannot see a leak put on a pair of rubber gloves. Feel around under the burner. Ckeck the bowl of the oil filter. Sometimes the firevalve leaks around the spindle. If you cannot find a leak, it may be that the burner is not adjusted properly. Go to the outside vent. If there is smoke, or a very sharp smell, then it is adjustment.
Sometimes when a boiler vents into a side passage, if the wind is in a certain direction, you will get exhaust gasses coming back into the boiler area - it is not usual.
Jim.

Lex Luthor · 02-04-2006 7:47am

James, the one I have is a 10yr old Grant 50/90 with a Euroflame burner. The flue where it joins the boiler has been sealed up best it can and last time the burner was out, I put a new gasket between the burner and the flange, but it still smells.

I have a question about the gasket and the burner I have installed. The last time an engineer came out to service the boiler he said he wouldn't service that specific burner due to its design. It has a braided hose feeding the burner and they have had problems before with them leaking. I agreed with him to a point that they leak as I have replaced mine about 5yrs ago, but he offered only to service it by replacing the burner with a new style at a cost of about €490 which included his €80 charge for the service. Needless to say, I cancelled the job.

I have an outdoor Firepac boiler in another house and I had the burner out of it last week. However there was no gasket in between the flange & burner on this one. Is the gasket a requirement only on the indoor boilers or are they not needed for this new style burner.

I didn't get the burner make/model but it was red and I'd recognise one again if I saw it. It had a braided hose as well feeding teh burner but had an additional protective layer.

If I was thinking of replacing my burner at some stage on my indoor one, could I buy a similar burner to the outdoor one and do away with the gasket? I'm of the opinion this gasket isn't sealing properly and could be the source of my minor smell.

JamesM · 02-04-2006 10:40pm

Lex Luthor wrote:

James, the one I have is a 10yr old Grant 50/90 with a Euroflame burner. The flue where it joins the boiler has been sealed up best it can and last time the burner was out, I put a new gasket between the burner and the flange, but it still smells.

I have a question about the gasket and the burner I have installed. The last time an engineer came out to service the boiler he said he wouldn't service that specific burner due to its design. It has a braided hose feeding the burner and they have had problems before with them leaking. I agreed with him to a point that they leak as I have replaced mine about 5yrs ago, but he offered only to service it by replacing the burner with a new style at a cost of about €490 which included his €80 charge for the service. Needless to say, I cancelled the job.

The boiler is good. I have seen the name Euroflame, but cannot place it - it is not one of the more popular burners.
Grant started with a Minor 1 burner -while these burned well, they had lots of problems - the main one was that the motor and oil pump did not line up properly and when the oil pump was worn, the motor was not strong enough to turn it. It used to jam.
Then they started using the Riello G3. This (in my opinion) is the best oil burner of the last 40 years. There is an new Riello burner, a RDB 1. This is a good burner, but many people have gone back to the G3, which is still available.
I would use a G3 in most situations. The Bentone is also a good burner, used quite a bit, but I consider the G3 a quiter smoother burner. There is no gasket supplied with a G3 and I have never seen the need for one, indoor or outdoor. Most oil burners have flexable braided hoses. I have known them to last over 30 years. (That is a rubber hose, with a braided wire cover).

I have an outdoor Firepac boiler in another house and I had the burner out of it last week. However there was no gasket in between the flange & burner on this one. Is the gasket a requirement only on the indoor boilers or are they not needed for this new style burner.

Is that a Firebird in a Cabinpac ? Indoor or outdoor, when a burner is burning well, a gasket is not needed. That is, when the rest of the system is OK. You can have problems if the flue exit is in a side passage or in a corner where the wind is swirling and blowing into the exhaust vent. Usually if the burner is a good make and adjusted well, you will not have a smell.

I didn't get the burner make/model but it was red and I'd recognise one again if I saw it. It had a braided hose as well feeding teh burner but had an additional protective layer.

If I was thinking of replacing my burner at some stage on my indoor one, could I buy a similar burner to the outdoor one and do away with the gasket? I'm of the opinion this gasket isn't sealing properly and could be the source of my minor smell.

I think that the burner is the cause of the smell not just a gasket. Have you tried to smell the exhaust gasses outside ? If a kerosene burner is burning well, you can (almost) breath in the gasses at the vent. If there is a very sharp smell (or smoke), then it is not properly set up.
The Riello G3 is enclosed in a rectangular red box.
The Riello RDB has a red plastic molded cover on the left side of the burner. The Bentone has some red on the casing as well. They all have names somewhere on them.
That's all I can think of tonight

Jim.

Lex Luthor · 03-04-2006 7:59am

Now that you remind me, my indoor burner is the Minor 1. I've had some problems with the motor coupling & motor bearing, but I cannot find anyone to service it. Is that across the industry.

My outdoor burner now that you describe it is a Riello RDB.

Any idea how much a Riello G3 burner would cost and would it fit in the Grant indoor burner?

JamesM · 03-04-2006 9:21am

Lex Luthor wrote:

Now that you remind me, my indoor burner is the Minor 1. I've had some problems with the motor coupling & motor bearing, but I cannot find anyone to service it. Is that across the industry.

My outdoor burner now that you describe it is a Riello RDB.

Any idea how much a Riello G3 burner would cost and would it fit in the Grant indoor burner?

I think that a G3 is about Euro 320 to 350. The G3 would be a perfect fit for the Grant and most likely would be quiter and smoother. If you have a fully ballanced flue, ie. the burner takes the air from outside the house, then you would need the RDB. If it just vents out through the wall the G3 is perfect.
I don't know why anyone would not service a Minor 1. They might warn the customer that it was a burner that gave a bit of trouble. They would replace main parts, like motor, oil pump, control box etc. They would replace a coupling, but would not replace a bearing in the motor - they would replace the motor. To be honest, most would advise the customer that it would be better to replace the burner, rather than putting parts into an old burner.
Jim.

Lex Luthor · 03-04-2006 10:43am

JamesM wrote:

I think that a G3 is about Euro 320 to 350. The G3 would be a perfect fit for the Grant and most likely would be quiter and smoother. If you have a fully ballanced flue, ie. the burner takes the air from outside the house, then you would need the RDB. If it just vents out through the wall the G3 is perfect.
I don't know why anyone would not service a Minor 1. They might warn the customer that it was a burner that gave a bit of trouble. They would replace main parts, like motor, oil pump, control box etc. They would replace a coupling, but would not replace a bearing in the motor - they would replace the motor. To be honest, most would advise the customer that it would be better to replace the burner, rather than putting parts into an old burner.
Jim.

I'll check later what type of flue is in it.

I'm not too bothered about replacing the bearing...when it seized a few years back, all I could find in Heatmercahnts is that they would only supply me with a burner, no bearing. However, I went to a bearing shop in the JFK Ind Est and got one for a few quid. Have replaced a few couplings already.

The only issue I might have is setting up the air/fuel mixture.

My tenant is telling me on the outdoor burner that it has gone to lockout again and the vent at the back is really black. I'm guessing she has been messing with the brass control valve for the oil into the burner and has enriched the mixture because when I was down last week it was very black & sooty in the burner nozzle area. Is this easy to set or best leave it to someone with proper equipment to set this up?

JamesM · 03-04-2006 1:39pm

I'm getting a bit mixed up

The Grant 50/90 is the Euroflame with the Minor 1 burner ? If so, the Riello G3 will be a perfect replacement. It is unlikely that it had a real balanced flue. A balanced flue takes the air for the burner from around the vent outside and feeds it to the burner through an air hose. Some people call a vent, which exhausts the gasses out through the wall, a balanced flue.

With the other burner (This is the RDB - is it with a Grant as well ?): If the vent out the back is black, then the air/oil mix is off. I think that the brass valve you are talking about is the fire valve (it is just before the flex oil line). If so, it must be turned on, but does not regulate the flow of oil. There are 2 adjustments on the RDB, the oil pressure and the air. The oil pressure adjustment is a screw faceing you on the oil pump. The air is adjusted with an allen key. If the tenant messed with anything it is likely the oil pressure screw. People often turn this screw when trying to bleed the burner, when they have let the oil run out. That screw has a narrow head and then it widens out. It sits in a recess. If the wide bit is just showing, that is close to the right pressure. The photocell is probably black by now , so pull it gently back towards you and clean the glass tip. Depending on what boiler this is, there are diferent ways of seeing the flame. Maybe take out the baffles or there might be a spyhole. BE CAREFUL. I am only telling you to have a go at this because you seem to have an idea of what you are doing. I should be saying "Get a service engineer". When you can see the flame and if it looks as if the oil pressure screw has been screwed in too far, try turning the screw anticlockwise. If the flame is smokey and orange, it should clean up as you turn the screw. When you see a very bright clean flame with the slightest hint of blue in it - that just might be OK. It is difficult to explain - if you are not sure you will save money in the long run by paying an expert to look at it - you will save in economy.
Jim.

malmatthews · 03-04-2006 6:40pm

yves wrote:

I am renting a house that has a Grant boiler inside the house in the kitchen which a mate has told me should be outside ! I find it very smelly and I mentioned this to landlord who pretty much told me to get lost ! I think it is smelling , he says no. I heard on the news last night that someone was admitted to hospital because of suspected carbon monoxide poisoning from a boiler inside the house.Apparently the windows were full of condensation and so is my place. 4 bed detached house and has vents. I kinda wanna stay in the house cos it suits - what should i do ? How does one measure if carbon monoxide is present ?

Having survived major problems with an outdoor system, I still sympathise. The root of the problem appears to be with the landlord's unwillingness to deal with the issue. I would ask him whether the boiler has been serviced in the last few years. Probably not. I would then insist that the boiler be serviced. Better still offer to arrange this yourself. Be there when the service engineer arrives and explain the problem. In my experience these people are very good; I've heard of boilers not having been serviced for years!. Also you can try changing to kerosene if you're on diesel as the former is cleaner.

Lex Luthor · 03-04-2006 6:41pm

James, I'll need to get more information on the outdoor boiler on the weekend, but I know she has been messing with the allen key adjustment to bleed it each time. She lets it go empty every time and then fills it and bleeds it. I organised an engineer to call out to her this morning to look at it for her and he said the cause of the burner not working was due to a mouse. She was vague with her details so I might just call them this tomorrow and find out what the issue was. She's constantly leaving the boiler door open, so she's just looking for them to come in. In one ear, out the other.

As for my indoor boiler, its a Grant Euroflame with balanced flue. I'll use your post above as reference when I'm servicing it soon, but after I gap the elctrodes, replace the nozzle, check the pressure, how do I set the air regulator adjustment on the silencer cover? I've fiddled with it before and depending on which way it is turned, will produce black smoke outside and clear smoke.

JamesM · 03-04-2006 10:13pm

Lex Luthor wrote:

James, I'll need to get more information on the outdoor boiler on the weekend, but I know she has been messing with the allen key adjustment to bleed it each time. She lets it go empty every time and then fills it and bleeds it. I organised an engineer to call out to her this morning to look at it for her and he said the cause of the burner not working was due to a mouse. She was vague with her details so I might just call them this tomorrow and find out what the issue was. She's constantly leaving the boiler door open, so she's just looking for them to come in. In one ear, out the other.

MAYBE, a mouse could have crawled into the air intake and cut down the airflow

As for my indoor boiler, its a Grant Euroflame with balanced flue. I'll use your post above as reference when I'm servicing it soon, but after I gap the elctrodes, replace the nozzle, check the pressure, how do I set the air regulator adjustment on the silencer cover? I've fiddled with it before and depending on which way it is turned, will produce black smoke outside and clear smoke.

This is the boiler with the Minor 1 burner. It is not really a balanced flue, just a low level flue venting through the wall. With kerosene, it should probably have a .60 80degree nozzle. The oil pressure should be 110 - 120 psi. The air adjustment - about 3 or 4. Take off the "Silencer cover" - three screws. Make sure that the flap inside moves freely (or has been removed - it can stick, cutting down the airflow). Take off the boiler cleaning door (be careful with the gasket). Remove the 4 baffles. Clean out the boiler. Replace the burner. Place the bottom baffle over the opening in the top of the boiler, blocking the opening. BE CAREFUL. Start up the burner. Move the baffle slightly aside so that you can see the flame - check the flame as I said before. Adjust the air and try to get a clean bright flame. Move it to a high number and the flame should turn blue. A low number will give you orange. Try to get it where you just about do not see the blue tinge. Too much blue and you will get a strong smell - too much orange and you will get smoke. That's as close as you will get without instruments. Don't put your face too close to the opening. Don't leave it running too long with the boiler open.
Jim.

JamesM · 03-04-2006 10:21pm

malmatthews wrote:

Having survived major problems with an outdoor system, I still sympathise. The root of the problem appears to be with the landlord's unwillingness to deal with the issue. I would ask him whether the boiler has been serviced in the last few years. Probably not. I would then insist that the boiler be serviced. Better still offer to arrange this yourself. Be there when the service engineer arrives and explain the problem. In my experience these people are very good; I've heard of boilers not having been serviced for years!. Also you can try changing to kerosene if you're on diesel as the former is cleaner.

There is indeed a lot to be said for getting a good qualified service engineer to do a proper service. A good handyman can do a certain amount. But, experience is what counts when setting up an oil burner properly.
Jim.

Lex Luthor · 02-07-2006 7:41pm

decided to get cracking on with the service this morning while the weather was good. Opened up the burner, got the size/type nozzle needed and then found the braided hose dripping very slightly at the burner end. So need another one. Hopefully it won;t be difficult to find a replacement.

Had a look at the Grant website and the kitchen/utility indoor units they make now come with the Riello RDB burner in the Euroflame unit. If I was to swap my current Minor 1 for a RDB type, then it looks like I just remove the blue box that houses the minor 1, thake the flexi hose off the box and attach it to the RDB burner and install as normal.

zokrez · 05-09-2008 8:16pm

I too have a Grant 50/90 and the heating was turned on when the water pump was off and now it won't work. When I turn on, burner turns on but cuts out after 30 seconds, i have pressed reset twice. My service engineer seems to be retired and am having difficulty remembering how to get flame going again. I took out 4 baffles and cleaned but the problem is the flame or electrical. Anyone got suggestions ?

JamesM · 06-09-2008 3:10pm

Zakrze wrote: »

I too have a Grant 50/90 and the heating was turned on when the water pump was off and now it won't work. When I turn on, burner turns on but cuts out after 30 seconds, i have pressed reset twice. My service engineer seems to be retired and am having difficulty remembering how to get flame going again. I took out 4 baffles and cleaned but the problem is the flame or electrical. Anyone got suggestions ?

Are you sure that you didn't run out of oil - and now it's airlocked ?
Jim.

slavetothegrind · 07-09-2008 12:11pm

You are only guessing unless you have a proper meter, better to get a service engineer out and they will set it perfectly. You can ask for a printout of the flue gas analysis.

BTW the meters are expensive, too much for diy use!

zokrez · 10-09-2008 12:16am

The problem was water in the tank. Can't find a hole in the tank - boiler man arrived and he said it could be that there was water in the delivery truck and because it wasn't used for a while all the water sank to the bottom. Took about ten minutes to drain off the water before kerosene appeared. But it has happened again twice so i fear for how much water could be in the tank. I reckon there is a leak in the top of the tank tbh - at least I know how to bleed.

JamesM · 10-09-2008 9:07am

Zakrze wrote: »

The problem was water in the tank. Can't find a hole in the tank - boiler man arrived and he said it could be that there was water in the delivery truck and because it wasn't used for a while all the water sank to the bottom. Took about ten minutes to drain off the water before kerosene appeared. But it has happened again twice so i fear for how much water could be in the tank. I reckon there is a leak in the top of the tank tbh - at least I know how to bleed.

The water is in the bottom of the tank, up to the outlet pipe. It will keep on coming out ,if you don't get it drained. If it is a plastic tank, the only way is with a pump - get a pipe down to the bottom of the tank. If it continues , it will corrode the gears in the oil pump - you will need a new pump.
If it is a steel tank, there may be a drain cock at the bottom of the tank. Also if it is steel, and water lodges on the top, it may have eaten through.
Jim.

Boiler in house very smelly

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