Swine Flu Vaccination + general swine flu chat thread

BrianD · 04-07-2009 3:14pm #1

I note from radio reports and the Irish Times http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2009/0704/breaking21.htm
that there is a plan to innoculate the entire population in the Autumn.

Is this mass hysteria or do we have a serious problem here? To me it seems that the majority of deaths were in third world countries where medical care is poor or not widely available. Is this flu worse that say avian flu that we had a few years ago? Swine flu got a lot of media coverage a few weeks/months ago but as most first world victims recovered it kind of faded away. It's quite hard to guage the level of threat to the general population. Is it hysteria or a real threat?

Of course it suits the drugs manufacturers to fan the flames. What is the status of this vaccine. Personally, I would be reluctant to take it. I would need a lot of convincing to take a mass produced vaccine that was developed in double quick time. I haven't taken a flu jab before so why should I take this one?

I also find it ironic that the "travel alert" system used by many first world countries has been very quiet of late. Probably because it would require a recommendation not to travel to the USA, Australia or the UK.

Greenmachine · 04-07-2009 3:20pm

A load of Pish if you ask me. Won't bother getting one myself. If everone else has the vaccine, I'm not going to contract it from them.

Workers in "essential" areas needed to keep the economy running - such as the electricity sector - would probably be first to receive the vaccination.

Err maybe let them strike and hang this over them No pay increase, but if you go back to work you can have a vaccine.

tallaght01 · 04-07-2009 4:00pm

No-one will force people to get vaccinated. The vaccine is currently being developed, but should be available soon.

The priority with the vaccine is not that it will protect all the people who get the vaccine from nasty illness. Most healthy people will have a mild form of the disease. So, they will carry on their normal day to day business. But you will be contagious for 6-7 days.

So, you'll be in contact with people, like your elderly parents or grandparents, your pregnant sister, or your newborn niece.

It's these people who are at very high risk from swine flu.

So, the reason that we're trying to stop people getting swine flu is to stop them giving it to vulnerable people.

nesf · 04-07-2009 4:12pm

Greenmachine wrote: »

If everone else has the vaccine, I'm not going to contract it from them.

All it takes is 1 in 10 people thinking like you for that not to work.

conchubhar1 · 04-07-2009 4:58pm

has anyone died from swine flu that did not have a previous (serious) illness?

Greenmachine · 04-07-2009 5:25pm

nesf wrote: »

All it takes is 1 in 10 people thinking like you for that not to work.

Yeah but it narrows the odd down alot with minimum effort.

tallaght01 · 04-07-2009 5:31pm

A few have died with no underlying illness. But that's not the point.

The point is we're trying to protect people who HAVE underlying illness.

BrianD · 04-07-2009 5:46pm

tallaght01 wrote: »

A few have died with no underlying illness. But that's not the point.

The point is we're trying to protect people who HAVE underlying illness.

That's not true from what I can find. It appears that nobody has died in the First World of Swine Flu that did not have underlying issues. It's careless of you to say that a "few have died".

But it appears that that the symptoms of what is called "swine flu" is no different than regular flu. Therefore those people who could die from swine flu are just as likely to die from regular flu. All we have is a new strain that is identifiable and can be classed as Swine flu as opposed to common or garden flu.

There is absolutely nothing to indicate that symptoms of Swine Flu are more serious or deadlier than "normal" influenza. The only notable fact about Swine Flu is that it is normally transmitted amongst pigs only. When it contacts humans it results in human influenza. In otherwords, Swine Flu is not a distinct disease and no more deadlier than "ordinary flu".

Is this not a lot of hysteria about nothing? How many cases of fuman influenza are currently in Ireland or the UK. Probably multiples of swine flu and it's exactly the same thing.

I'll save the HSE a few quid and skip mine.

tallaght01 · 04-07-2009 5:52pm

There's a lot of community immunity to normal seasonal flu, plus a lot of people are immunised against the normal flu. A lot of these people are vulnerable people.

But they will still have a high risk of developing normal flu.

Now, add in swine flu. No-one has any immunity, so it's likely to spread much more. Plus no one is immunised, which means it's extra likely to spread.

Plus we can't vaccinate our kids with cystic fibrosis etc yet.

So, there's this vulnerable population who can't be vaccinated, and none of their friends and family are immune tot he virus, which puts them all at higher risk of getting it, and passing it on to people who are more likely to become unwell.

But the reality is that the public don't understand this, because it's not been explained to them. Plus a lot of people are only interested in getting a vaccine of it helps them. A lot of healthy people know swine flu is unlikely to kill them, so they won't get the vaccine just to protect babies and sick people.

conchubhar1 · 04-07-2009 5:55pm

how many die each year from regular flu?
aids?
cancer?

i will still follow basic hygiene, that reduces the spread of all flus

how many people have died of swine flu?

tallaght01 · 04-07-2009 6:01pm

BrianD wrote: »

That's not true from what I can find. It appears that nobody has died in the First World of Swine Flu that did not have underlying issues. It's careless of you to say that a "few have died".

.

Just to address this bit that you added into your last post. Their was a recent case series in the NEJM, looking at a cohort of people who had been hospitalised with swine flu pneumonia and died.

About half of the people who died were previously healthy, as were half of the people who were hospitalised.

But, like I said previously, it's protection of the vulnerable groups that is the priority.

tallaght01 · 04-07-2009 6:07pm

conchubhar1 wrote: »

how many die each year from regular flu?
aids?
cancer?

i will still follow basic hygiene, that reduces the spread of all flus

how many people have died of swine flu?

Been about 100,000 cases of swine flu, and about 450 deaths. So about 1 in 200 get it overall. The problem is that this will hammer through Europe and the states so badly during winter, and if there's even a small case fatality rate that will still be a lot of deaths.

nayorleck114 · 04-07-2009 6:08pm

The Vaccine is not to stop people dying, its to protect those with weak immune systems (Pregnant women, old age).

conchubhar1 · 04-07-2009 6:54pm

100,000 out of what 6 billion

250 deaths out of 100,000

even if the cases rise is the severity or the death toll going to rise in the winter?

tallaght01 · 04-07-2009 6:57pm

conchubhar1 wrote: »

even if the cases rise is the severity or the death toll going to rise in the winter?

You bet your ass it is!

conchubhar1 · 04-07-2009 6:58pm

450 in 100,000

is that in anyway comparable to normal flu nevermind the other major causes of deaths?

tallaght01 · 04-07-2009 7:01pm

conchubhar1 wrote: »

250 in 100,000

is that in anyway comparable to normal flu nevermind the other major causes of deaths?

450.

It's probably more than normal flu. But the epidemiology isn't easily comparable, because of the lack of a vaccine, and the fact that it hasn't been through a northern hemisphere winter yet.

seimi · 04-07-2009 7:10pm

A bit of googling and I get statistics showing about 20,000 - 30,000 deaths in the US from flu alone per year.
WHO (http://www.who.int/csr/don/2009_07_03/en/index.html) reports worldwide deaths at 382 from swine flu so far. 170 in the US.
Maybe a vaccine against getting struck by lightning as you fall down the stairs would be more cost effective.

tallaght01 · 04-07-2009 7:13pm

seimi wrote: »

A bit of googling and I get statistics showing about 20,000 - 30,000 deaths in the US from flu alone per year.
WHO (http://www.who.int/csr/don/2009_07_03/en/index.html) reports worldwide deaths at 382 from swine flu so far. 170 in the US.
Maybe a vaccine against getting struck by lightning as you fall down the stairs would be more cost effective.

It's not winter in the states yet.

conchubhar1 · 04-07-2009 7:21pm

it has been winter in half the world already

now granted the northern hemisphere is vastly more populated.... still

taram · 04-07-2009 7:25pm

Put it this way, how many times have you even heard of someone getting normal flu in summer in the northern hemisphere, never mind dying from it?

Also the fact the government are spending money on this kind of raises alarms about it's seriousness, when did they last spend that much on us and not on luxury jets across the world

conchubhar1 · 04-07-2009 7:27pm

well i think it is being overhyped - so govt seeing it as a priority and spending so much is so hyped

biden has some intereting views on this - and he has seen this before....

tallaght01 · 04-07-2009 7:28pm

we're only halfway through our peak winter season in Oz. Even at that, it's very mild.

There's a big population difference, too.

Africa has hardly any monitoring of swine flu, as well as not traditionally suffering big flu outbreaks like the USA.

South America has some monitoring but, again, has milder winters.

It's gonna be chaos in Europe, Canada and the states.

conchubhar1 · 04-07-2009 7:31pm

I don't think it will be in fairness

how often do these things get overhyped?

how bad are irish winters?, we are talking about ireland here.

PinkTulips · 04-07-2009 7:35pm

my youngest son will need to be vaccinated, he's 4 months old and had pneumonia at birth so is in the high risk group.

the differance between normal flu isn't the severity of the illness, it's the fact that no-one has any immunity at all.

so during winter we're all exposed to flu but only a few of us get it whereas everyone who comes in contact with swine flu will contract it, thus making it a huge concern for any in the risk group of the very young, old, sick or pregnant.

seimi · 04-07-2009 7:36pm

Even with seasonal variation, I can't see mortality from swine flu rising from 170 to 30,000. The statistics show mortality dropping over time. Famous last words. I'm not feeling too well.

samson09 · 04-07-2009 7:39pm

BrianD wrote: »

Personally, I would be reluctant to take it. I would need a lot of convincing to take a mass produced vaccine that was developed in double quick time. I haven't taken a flu jab before so why should I take this one?

I agree. How can anyone consider this vaccine to be safe? Its being manufactured in record time at breakneck speed (13 weeks), when it becomes available for use it will have undergone pretty much no testing to see if it's safe and it also contains substances which are known to be harmful.

"The new H1N1 vaccine is being made by the pharmaceutical company Novartis. It will contain MF59, a potentially debilitating adjuvant.

MF-59 is oil-based and composed of squalene, Tween 80 and Span85. All oil adjuvants injected into rats were found to be toxic. All rats injected developed a disease similar to multiple sclerosis which left them crippled and dragging their paralyzed hindquarters across their cages. (Kenney, RT. Edleman, R. "Survey of human-use adjuvants," Expert Review of Vaccines, 2003 p171)

Squalene causes severe arthritis (3 on a scale of 4). Squalene in humans at 10-20 parts per billion leads to severe immune responses, such as autoimmune arthritis and lupus. (Matsumoto, Gary. Vaccine A: The Covert Government Experiment That's Killing Our Soldiers and Why GI's Are Only the First Victims of this Vaccine, New York: Basic Books. P54)"

http://www.naturalnews.com/026526_health_influenza_vaccines.html

Multi-dose vials of the vaccine will also probably contain thimerosal, a preservative made with mercury, a known neurotoxin. And all this just to be protected against a virus with a relatively low mortality rate?

No effin way.

conchubhar1 · 04-07-2009 7:43pm

if people in risk get the vaccine

will that provide them with immunity?

if so - why does everyone need it?

King Mob · 04-07-2009 7:44pm

conchubhar1 wrote: »

if people in risk get the vaccine

will that provide them with immunity?

if so - why does everyone need it?

Because not everyone who is at risk will be able to get the vaccine.
Particularly newborn babies.

King Mob · 04-07-2009 7:47pm

samson09 wrote: »

Multi-dose vials of the vaccine will also probably contain thimerosal, a preservative made with mercury, a known neurotoxin. And all this just to be protected against a virus with a relatively low mortality rate?

None of this is true.

tallaght01 · 04-07-2009 8:10pm

samson09 wrote: »

BrianD wrote: »

Personally, I would be reluctant to take it. I would need a lot of convincing to take a mass produced vaccine that was developed in double quick time. I haven't taken a flu jab before so why should I take this one?

I agree. How can anyone consider this vaccine to be safe? Its being manufactured in record time at breakneck speed (13 weeks), when it becomes available for use it will have undergone pretty much no testing to see if it's safe and it also contains substances which are known to be harmful.

"The new H1N1 vaccine is being made by the pharmaceutical company Novartis. It will contain MF59, a potentially debilitating adjuvant.

MF-59 is oil-based and composed of squalene, Tween 80 and Span85. All oil adjuvants injected into rats were found to be toxic. All rats injected developed a disease similar to multiple sclerosis which left them crippled and dragging their paralyzed hindquarters across their cages. (Kenney, RT. Edleman, R. "Survey of human-use adjuvants," Expert Review of Vaccines, 2003 p171)

Squalene causes severe arthritis (3 on a scale of 4). Squalene in humans at 10-20 parts per billion leads to severe immune responses, such as autoimmune arthritis and lupus. (Matsumoto, Gary. Vaccine A: The Covert Government Experiment That's Killing Our Soldiers and Why GI's Are Only the First Victims of this Vaccine, New York: Basic Books. P54)"

http://www.naturalnews.com/026526_health_influenza_vaccines.html

Multi-dose vials of the vaccine will also probably contain thimerosal, a preservative made with mercury, a known neurotoxin. And all this just to be protected against a virus with a relatively low mortality rate?

No effin way.

I'm involved in the testing of the swine flu vaccine that will have "pretty much no testing", so I've a conflict of interest here. So, in the interest of fairness and impartiality, I'm going to just get DrIndy or GuanYin to moderate this thread.

But Samson, and i say this as a normal user, you've been warned before about just copying and pasting from natural news. You just accept what you read, and you have never critically appraised what you've read. It brings nothing to the table. We all know you've not read the journal article that you've cited, or the book. I suggest that the conspiracy theories forum is more your natural home. This forum is under the science category.

Swine Flu Vaccination + general swine flu chat thread

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