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Poppy

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Comments

  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    Why all the hissy fits.

    I cannot understand those who do not understand that history is history and there is nothing we can do about it now, other than repeating it.
    A certain amount of the current poppy fervor is all about repeating those mistakes, no matter how much people want to deny it, it is intrinsically linked to the current british armed forces and policy




  • I cannot understand those who do not understand that history is history and there is nothing we can do about it now, other than repeating it.

    How wonderfully naive. If "history is history" can we have all these rabid poppy pushers pushing all the, em, less savoury parts of that history - it's not like they'd have to look far. "History" really isn't history at all, is it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    feigning moral superiority by condemning violence when it was carried out for political aims

    Love the way you slide that in there! Now, if there was a little less spittle on your screen, you could carry off the conscientious objector role you've assigned yourself.

    But your selective sympathy is really quite apparent.
    Why, pray tell, do you think Irish-born people who fought for something as morally reprehensible as imperialism deserve commemoration? Just because it was the British Empire? Bingo.

    Ah yes. The corollary is true as well. You're positively delighted that 40 thousand Irish died in the Great War. They deserved it because they were fighting for Imperialism. I imagine you think the same of the Russians, Germans, Austrians, Ottomans, oh you must particularly weep with joy for dead Dutchmen, Belgium, Italy, and so on. All empires, all with large armies of soldiers, all fighting for that imperialism.

    In fact I don't know why you don't embrace the opportunity Gabriela Dirty Sabotage! So many people dead, all dead for their support of imperialism. And we all know there is nothing worse than an imperialist, right? You have much to celebrate there.




  • because you have an obsession with an empire that no longer exists. Not that any of the empires that fought in WW1 still exist. But that's your prerogative. The dead won't hear you, either way.

    Hmm. And, just for clarity, all this poppy stuff is an "obsession with commemorating the footsoldiers of an empire that no longer exists"? Or, is being obsessed with the past only acceptable when one is commemorating British soldiers from that past? Or, are the cynics correct and the poppy commemorations are really about using a distorted representation of British history to justify current British nationalist sentiment?


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,853 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    How wonderfully naive. If "history is history" can we have all these rabid poppy pushers pushing all the, em, less savoury parts of that history - it's not like they'd have to look far. "History" really isn't history at all, is it.

    Whatever you think is right from your POV. I have no issue apart from remembering our dead. About time they were remembered too.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,421 ✭✭✭ToddyDoody


    Growing up I remember blue poppies, orange poppies and then the bigger red poppies that'd bloom in the garden every Summer. Leaves would fall off in Autumn and there'd be a stump left, a kind of bulb was present in Winter.

    Anything else I wouldn't know about. :)




  • Ah yes. The corollary is true as well. You're positively delighted that 40 thousand Irish died in the Great War.

    Why are 40,000 Irish dying for the British Empire more worthy of commemoration than 40,000 English dying for the British Empire? A thug is a thug no matter where they come from. I'd side with the English guys in the GPO than the Irish-born British soldiers in your army, so your very English recruiting sergeant attempt at rising my sympathy for "The poor Irish fighting for their country" is hilarious. I'm firmly, and steadfastly, with the Arthur McBrides of Irish history:




    WWI_Irish_recruiting_poster_LOC_cph.3g10979.jpg

    They deserved it because they were fighting for Imperialism. I imagine you think the same of the Russians, Germans, Austrians, Ottomans, oh you must particularly weep with joy for dead Dutchmen, Belgium, Italy, and so on. All empires, all with large armies of soldiers, all fighting for that imperialism.

    If the Russians, etc were continuing to occupy part of my country, I'm sure I'd develop the requisite response to that. As they're not, and as this indeed is not a thread seeking sympathy for the footsoldiers of the Russian Empire,... (this shouldn't be rocket science, but it seems to be)


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭joe40


    Did any Irishmen fight for the germans in ww1 should they be remembered. What about Irishmen who fought for American army, where do we draw the line.
    Fight for a foreign country if you want, your choice, but why remeberance in this country.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Remember Ireland was part of the United Kingdom at the time of the First World War. So Irish fighting under the British were fighting under the ruler at the time.

    And being their descendants, in a way, we are all British. Commemorating our history of when we were indeed British is entirely valid and laudable. History did not start in 1922.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Whatever you think is right from your POV. I have no issue apart from remembering our dead. About time they were remembered too.

    As thugs, according to balanced judgement of Gabriela Dirty Sabotage.


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  • As thugs, according to balanced judgement of Gabriela Dirty Sabotage.

    The real question is, can a worldview that brings us the concept of "the good imperialists worthy of commemoration" also bring us the concept of "the good fascists worthy of commemoration"?

    If not, why not?




  • And being their descendants, in a way, we are all British. Commemorating our history of when we were indeed British is entirely valid and laudable. History did not start in 1922.

    Oh, Jesus. My head.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,377 ✭✭✭droidman123


    Kevin Myers brought all this to the surface. He made it known that Irish men fought in WW1 and they should be remembered for that.

    We should also remember that those Irish who fought in WW1 were actually British at that time. And they probably saw joining the Army as a way to send some money home. But most of them died in battle anyway.

    They were british at that time?so when germany invaded poland the polish people automatically became german!when france invaded germany,the germans became french? When the japenese invaded china,the chinese became japenese? Etc etc etc


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭Folkstonian


    A certain amount of the current poppy fervor is all about repeating those mistakes, no matter how much people want to deny it, it is intrinsically linked to the current british armed forces and policy

    What is so terrible about showing acknowledgement and gratitude for soldiers serving now or in recent conflicts? Do you support the work of the Irish defence forces in peacekeeping roles? Nobody tries to deny who the RBL poppy appeal supports btw, it’s on their website.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,565 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    The real question is, can a worldview that brings us the concept of "the good imperialists worthy of commemoration" also bring us the concept of "the good fascists worthy of commemoration"?

    If not, why not?

    Oh but you would, presumably, be open to the idea of 'the good fascists worthy of commemoration'. The enemy of my enemy, after all?

    Your analysis is so all over the place I don't know where to start. There wasn't any such thing as fascism in 1914. I suspect you are talking about a different period, and a different country, under a different government, with a different war, with different people involved, and you ask ironically: why don't we celebrate the fascists, if we are going to honor the dead of WW1. Never mind you conflate everybody who fought under fascism as fighting for fascism.

    Not only a narrow field of view, not only a poor judge of distance, but seeing everything in monochrome too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,809 ✭✭✭joe40


    I don't have a problem with people choosing to wear the poppy, but I really object to the pressure to wear one in the UK. The James McClean issue been case in point.
    In is now at the stage where a German player in the premiership would probably be expected to wear a poppy.
    That would actually be quite funny


  • Registered Users Posts: 66,300 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    What is so terrible about showing acknowledgement and gratitude for soldiers serving now or in recent conflicts?

    It is simply deplorable that an Irish person would want to do that. The RBL has no discrimination against who it supports. It is an adjunct to the continuing British war machine.

    We should be raging against this machine. Not pandering to it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 421 ✭✭Folkstonian


    Why are 40,000 Irish dying for the British Empire more worthy of commemoration than 40,000 English dying for the British Empire? A thug is a thug no matter where they come from. I'd side with the English guys in the GPO than the Irish-born British soldiers in your army, so your very English recruiting sergeant attempt at rising my sympathy for "The poor Irish fighting for their country" is hilarious. I'm firmly, and steadfastly, with the Arthur McBrides of Irish history

    If the Russians, etc were continuing to occupy part of my country, I'm sure I'd develop the requisite response to that. As they're not, and as this indeed is not a thread seeking sympathy for the footsoldiers of the Russian Empire,... (this shouldn't be rocket science, but it seems to be)

    You come across as such a rather troubled person, with each of your beautifully constructive missives absolutely bristling with anger.

    You now appear to have labelled each and every man who served in the British expeditionary forces in four devastating years of war as a ‘thug’.

    So many millions of human stories of heroism, sacrifice, terrible loss, skill, endurance, humour, bravery, misery, boredom, excitement fear, ingenuity, etc, but you can do no more than to label all those men as ‘thugs’.

    Now, I’m not sure if the red mist that clouds your vision is so thick that you truly believe that, or you are using such language in a callous, viscous fashion for the shock factor so as to draw out an angry response that you would surely see as a moral victory.

    Either way, it’s far from subtle, and my personal opinion is you couldn’t be more wrong, or more ignorant, although honestly I think somebody as clearly obsessive as you are deserves only pity.

    Enjoy bickering away in the thread for evermore, but I’ll be ignoring you. Others should do the same.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    What is so terrible about showing acknowledgement and gratitude for soldiers serving now or in recent conflicts? Do you support the work of the Irish defence forces in peacekeeping roles? Nobody tries to deny who the RBL poppy appeal supports btw, it’s on their website.
    How many of the Bloody Sunday killers have been brought to justice, to start with the very lowest hanging fruit?

    There are plenty here who will deny it unfortunately


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,892 ✭✭✭✭Spook_ie


    Why? Time for a blitz on every bóthairín, sráidbhaile and baile in Ireland to commemorate all the victims of the very same British Empire that Myers glorified ad nauseam (while, in true Jekyll and Hyde form, feigning moral superiority by condemning violence when it was carried out for political aims with which he disagreed, especially by the native Irish forces of resistance in the last remnant of the British Empire in Ireland). We could smother this island in commemorations to the native Irish victims of British imperialism if we started. Why, pray tell, do you think Irish-born people who fought for something as morally reprehensible as imperialism deserve commemoration? Just because it was the British Empire? Bingo.



    Great, so you want Irish people in 2018 to commemorate British people in 1914 who joined the army of the empire occupying Ireland because they needed the money? Can you extend this generous attitude to every other person in history who joined something supremacist/ignoble because they needed money? Or is this a special "understanding" only reserved for people who used violence for the political aims of the British Empire?

    No I think most people would like to recognise and remember the centenary of the 1918 Armistice, whether you want to wear a poppy or not, you should at least on the 11th hour of the 11th Day of the 11th Month spare a thought for the many who died in the new method of warfare "The Trench" many of them still in the fields of Europe never brought home to their families but remembered as a name and number on a roll of the dead and missing.

    Nobody is asking that you should cry, or beat your chest or Ululate in remorse but just respect the fallen from all nations of the first truly WORLDWIDE conflict, it's so much more than just "Poppyday"


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,888 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    What is so terrible about showing acknowledgement and gratitude for soldiers serving now or in recent conflicts? Do you support the work of the Irish defence forces in peacekeeping roles? Nobody tries to deny who the RBL poppy appeal supports btw, it’s on their website.




    .....because they were colonial wars, a great many of them.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 3,246 ✭✭✭judeboy101


    Mairead McGuinness wearing a poppy on QT but Jordan Peterson not wearing one. Says it all really.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,888 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    You come across as such a rather troubled person, with each of your beautifully constructive missives absolutely bristling with anger.

    You now appear to have labelled each and every man who served in the British expeditionary forces in four devastating years of war as a ‘thug’.

    So many millions of human stories of heroism, sacrifice, terrible loss, skill, endurance, humour, bravery, misery, boredom, excitement fear, ingenuity, etc, but you can do no more than to label all those men as ‘thugs’.

    ....................


    Yep, heroism and sacrifice allright. Not by the Brits though.

    "In what has been described by the historian Caroline Elkins as Britain's own "Gulag", Africans resisting white settlers were roasted alive in addition to being hanged to death. Barack Obama's own grandfather had pins pushed into his fingers and his testicles squeezed between metal rods."

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2013/may/08/britain-imperial-myth-repackaging-fantasy?INTCMP=ILCNETTXT3487


    Fresh evidence of brutal treatment meted out by British forces to opponents of colonial rule in the 1950s has been revealed in secret files showing how they attacked and killed with impunity in Cyprus, where their victims included a blind man and a 17-year-old youth.
    https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2012/jul/27/brutality-british-forces-1950s-cyprus
    "The "elimination of ranking terrorists" was a repeated theme in secret monthly reports on casualty figures circulated by the director of intelligence in British-controlled Malaya during the 1950s."
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/apr/18/colonial-office-eliminations-malayan-insurgency


    That's just a small sample, but it gets the idea across I think.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,412 ✭✭✭Road-Hog


    lawred2 wrote: »
    yerra ffs anyone who believes that is seriously fooling themselves.

    WWII was ultimately settled by the USSR and the US. And the turning point of the war was Germany's folly into the USSR. Stalingrad alone cost the USSR 1.1m soldiers in deaths and casualties.

    But it was the 27000 Irish people...

    One only has to look at the number of USAF bases in the UK to understand who really 'won' the war.

    Total ‘poppy-cock’ alright......never heard such a claim before......it’s a bit like the romantic idea that is pedaled about the Irish ‘building’ America and UK in the 50’s & 60’s.


  • Registered Users Posts: 66,300 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    so as to draw out an angry response that you would surely see as a moral victory.

    That's kinda what those with a predilection for war and an immoral arms industry do, is it not?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,948 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    There will be a Remembrance ceremony on Sunday 11/11 at the Irish National War Memorial Gardens, with two minutes' silence at 11:00 sharp. I expect to see a lot of people there, even members of the government. The silence will be observed.

    From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, ‘Look at that, you son of a bitch’.

    — Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 Astronaut



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,440 ✭✭✭The Rape of Lucretia


    Road-Hog wrote: »
    Total ‘poppy-cock’ alright......never heard such a claim before......it’s a bit like the romantic idea that is pedaled about the Irish ‘building’ America and UK in the 50’s & 60’s.

    Britain courageously stood alone against the threat of the Nazi jackboot when invasion looked certain and long before the US and USSR were entangled. It could have done a deal with Mr. Hitler, but stood up to be counted in the darkest hour, whilst other, Ireland included, cowardly looked the other way or said doing nothing was honourable.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,866 ✭✭✭✭citytillidie


    bubblypop wrote: »
    Remember Ireland was part of the United Kingdom at the time of the First World War. So Irish fighting under the British were fighting under the ruler at the time.

    I hope you know the difference between the UK and Great Britain, Ireland can not and never have been part of Britain considering it is a completely different Island.

    ******



  • Registered Users Posts: 66,300 ✭✭✭✭FrancieBrady


    Britain courageously stood alone against the threat of the Nazi jackboot when invasion looked certain and long before the US and USSR were entangled. It could have done a deal with Mr. Hitler, but stood up to be counted in the darkest hour, whilst other, Ireland included, cowardly looked the other way or said doing nothing was honourable.

    Anyone who looks at the actual history of the war through the 'heroic' glasses of British propaganda is suspect.

    Without wanting to go off topic, the defence of Britain was a lot more complicated than a nation of shopkeepers and Sunday boaters standing tall against the mighty Germans.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 40,060 ✭✭✭✭ohnonotgmail


    I hope you know the difference between the UK and Great Britain, Ireland can not and never have been part of Britain considering it is a completely different Island.


    But it was part of the United Kingdom which is what the poster said. You are arguing with something that wasn't said.


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