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Housing Crisis and Immigration?

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Comments

  • #62
    beejee
    Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭beejee


    belfe wrote: »
    I can't tell if this is still the case, but last poll that I checked, there were more Irish abroad than foreigners here. It would be unfair blaming the immigration and forgetting about emigration, so I'd say that the migration numbers are overall positive in terms of it's effect for the housing crisis

    The whole thing is upside down.

    A good case in point is medical staff. We essentially fund the training of irish medical staff, only for them to swan off to other countries because the conditions aren't good enough here apparently.

    Then we "need" to hire immigrant medical staff who'll happily take their positions instead.

    Its a merry-go-round of terrible planning and foresight. The net effect seems to be that we lower our standards/quality of life. If the irish doctors are "better", and we lose them, and immigrant medical staff are "less good" and we hire them instead....you have to assume that there is a difference of quality otherwise the jobs that Irish staff are getting abroad would instead be filled by the staff we are hiring here instead.

    There was segment on the news the other day and they had a class of student nurses, all but one of them had full intentions to move abroad immediately upon receipt of the degree that the country has paid for.

    Its one giant catch-22. Same with housing. Someone/something is going to have to make an incision into this catch-22 or it will keep spiralling downwards.

    So I agree with you in the sense that migration, in and out, is a problem. But specifically in terms of housing here, it is obviously an inward problem, otherwise the costs of accommodation wouldn't be going higher and higher.


  • #63
    weldoninhio
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,311 ✭✭✭✭weldoninhio


    Sunny Disposition wrote: »
    Unlimited immigration from the EU, no ceiling even possible legally, it’s hardly surprising a country this small with a strong economy has problems.
    It’s not just housing, visit the regional hospital or maternity in Limerick and see how stretched services are. Or the schools in most provincial towns.
    Freedom of movement is a great idea in principle, but in reality you cannot possibly plan long term while it is in place. It really needs to change to a more restrictive model, like the US, Canada or Australia. It is common sense.

    It is not unlimited thought. If you cannot support yourself here after three months we could legally remove EU nationals from Ireland. However the bleeding heart brigade would be protesting in our airports if this happened.


  • #64
    enricoh
    Registered Users Posts: 4,808 ✭✭✭enricoh


    beejee wrote: »
    I don't see any immigrant bashing. Im keeping the topic on point, that immigration is, in my opinion, the greatest factor contributing to the housing crisis.

    To be fair, theres been very little said to contradict the assumption. Build more houses, I don't think that solves anything. Reign in the REITS etc, that has its place, but is still behind immigration in my opinion.

    As said a few times now, its about numbers, and there being too many.

    I think the figures given last night were that there was net immigration of 30k from eu and 30k+ from non eu last year. So 60k, concentrated in dublin I'd imagine.
    How can that not be a huge factor in the scramble for housing?!!


  • #65
    Sunny Disposition
    Registered Users Posts: 2,699 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    victor8600 wrote: »
    Immigrants pay more tax proportionally to the general population, so less immigrants = less money in the budget to spend on all these nice things you want. These problems are due to the budget allocation decisions in the last 15 years by successive right-wing governments.

    Instead of putting money into health, schools and social housing, we are paying for bailing out banks, wasting money to make water services private and waiting for the private sector to build houses for everyone.
    Simplistic analysis. This is populism Irish style, immigrants pay tax, are here to work etc. it’s not that such statements are not true, but they’re only part of the story, huge immigration like we have just had puts strain on housing and facilities,
    Plus the unplanned nature of it makes providing sustainable services impossible without a lot of luck.


  • #66
    Cordell
    Registered Users Posts: 5,757 ✭✭✭Cordell


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    It is not unlimited thought. If you cannot support yourself here after three months we could legally remove EU nationals from Ireland. However the bleeding heart brigade would be protesting in our airports if this happened.


    I know I won't be :)
    TheAnalyst_ wrote: »
    Immigration drives down wages and increases basic costs like housing. It's simple economics.

    But if you own a house and have a decent job then immigration will likely boost your wealth.

    Also immigration is driving economic growth and economic growth is driving immigration in a virtuous circle.
    Be happy that Ireland is such a desirable country (seriously, one of the best in EU, definitely in top 3).


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  • #67
    beejee
    Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭beejee


    riffmongous wrote: »
    There you go, screengrabbed, with the 7% area in red, just a small area off Dorset Street, not Dorset Street as you said

    480353.png

    Did they not say "dorset street"?

    Are you criticising me for stating what they said?

    Yes the area highlighted is not the entirety of dorset street. Congratulations on the monumental victory. That's added some real "oomf" to the topic :P


  • #68
    hawkwing
    Registered Users Posts: 1,803 ✭✭✭hawkwing


    Had a room to rent 3yrs ago,got 20 visits and 3 were Irish.A fool can see and hear how many non-Irish are in Dublin.build 10,000 houses although there is no place to build them and just more will come as the gates are open to most of the world.whether they are good,bad,work or don't bother is beside the point,where are they supposed to live as they have no interest in moving to rural Ireland where there's hardly any jobs and social life has almost died in the last ten years.


  • #69
    DelaneyIn
    Registered Users Posts: 524 ✭✭✭DelaneyIn


    According to Prime Time; the number of migrants coming from the EU: 31,000. From outside the EU: 30,900. Less than a third of those coming from outside of the EU are arriving on work visas.

    Of course importing such large amounts of people who aren’t working in skilled areas will put huge strain on the rental market and social services.

    Anyone with a brain can see that.

    A question for those who blame it all on the gubberment. How can they possibly be responsible for building housing and social housing, for people who are yet to move to the country and who have just recently moved here?


  • #70
    Fiftyfilthy
    Registered Users Posts: 554 ✭✭✭Fiftyfilthy


    riffmongous wrote: »
    Yeah I don't know Hardwick Lane at all, I just saw it there on google maps, see if you can figure it out from the screengrab I posted above, but I think I've got the right place


    Think I’ve spent far longer than I should looking at the screen grab map

    Can’t figure anything out at all unfortunately


  • #71
    beejee
    Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭beejee


    Cordell wrote: »
    I know I won't be :)



    Also immigration is driving economic growth and economic growth is driving immigration in a virtuous circle.
    Be happy that Ireland is such a desirable country (seriously, one of the best in EU, definitely in top 3).

    I like how you italicise virtuous!

    I'll tell everyone I know trapped in the housing situation that they should be happy theyre paying so much money for so little in exchange for the virtuous nature of it all :P


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  • #72
    Sunny Disposition
    Registered Users Posts: 2,699 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    Lot of info available from the CSO.

    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/pme/populationandmigrationestimatesapril2018/


    https://www.cso.ie/en/releasesandpublications/er/pme/populationandmigrationestimatesapril2017/


  • #73
    Mrs OBumble
    Registered Users Posts: 25,657 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    weldoninhio wrote: »
    Why do we need to import people from Brazil who can't speak the language to clean the toilets?? There is a huge EU that we have access to their workforce. Or Cameroonian canteen chefs?? Why and how are we importing unskilled workers that we have no need for??

    Have you tried hiring a chef lately? Restaurants in Galway have restored to offering accommodation as part of the package.


  • #74
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    beejee wrote: »
    The whole thing is bonkers. Building more is not going to solve anything.

    There's a shortage of housing. And you reckon building more is not going to solve anything. :confused::confused::confused:


  • #75
    victor8600
    Registered Users Posts: 1,603 ✭✭✭victor8600


    beejee wrote: »
    TA good case in point is medical staff. We essentially fund the training of irish medical staff, only for them to swan off to other countries because the conditions aren't good enough here apparently.

    Then we "need" to hire immigrant medical staff who'll happily take their positions instead....

    Again, this has nothing to do with the immigration. Conditions for medical staff are not good enough not just because of salaries, but because of the general shambles in the HSE, with consultants raking in money while nurses and junior doctors working more hours than humanly possible. Why? Because of the government having no coherent plans. In the crisis, they have introduced a hiring freeze, basically making medical staff to work more hours and forcing any graduates to look for work elsewhere. My friend who is a doctor left for Canada because apparently, she has more chance to become a consultant in Ireland if she had worked for a while abroad -- I do not know how this works, but seems to be a reflection on the overall mismanagement of the health sector.


  • #76
    beejee
    Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭beejee


    BattleCorp wrote: »
    There's a shortage of housing. And you reckon building more is not going to solve anything. :confused::confused::confused:

    Correct, that is exactly what I am stating.

    As long as immigration is allowed to continue apace as per that primetime episode, you may as well consider the influx of people to be infinite (compare the size of Ireland to nearly every other country on earth, and it may as well be infinite.)

    Therefore, trying to accommodate an infinite number of people by building more means that you need infinite building. Therefore the housing crisis never ends, and in all likelihood continues to worsen.

    Its not rocket science.


  • #77
    Cordell
    Registered Users Posts: 5,757 ✭✭✭Cordell


    beejee wrote: »
    I'll tell everyone I know trapped in the housing situation that they should be happy theyre paying so much money for so little in exchange for the virtuous nature of it all :P

    They should not be happy, but they should not blame the wrong people for something which is largely unavoidable. Housing in rich thriving cities is expensive all over the world.
    And no one is really trapped.


  • #78
    riffmongous
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,621 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    beejee wrote: »
    Did they not say "dorset street"?

    Are you criticising me for stating what they said?

    Yes the area highlighted is not the entirety of dorset street. Congratulations on the monumental victory. That's added some real "oomf" to the topic :P

    No, they say 'one small area on dorset street'.

    I'm criticising you for being completely misleading, it's why I had to look it up mysel, just as well that I did


  • #79
    DonnieCorko
    Registered Users Posts: 175 ✭✭DonnieCorko


    immigration drives innovation which drives the economy!


  • #80
    Sunny Disposition
    Registered Users Posts: 2,699 ✭✭✭Sunny Disposition


    DonnieCorko wrote: »
    immigration drives innovation which drives the economy!

    Yep, it is that simple.


  • #81
    beejee
    Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭beejee


    Cordell wrote: »
    They should not be happy, but they should not blame the wrong people for something which is largely unavoidable. Housing in rich thriving cities is expensive all over the world.
    And no one is really trapped.

    So the problem can be identified, but don't worry about it and continue being unhappy?

    And people wonder how bad situations get worse and worse. In my opinion either something will be done to rectify this disastrous course, or else it will naturally explode in a much more uncontrollable and violent way. Pick your poison.

    No one is really trapped, of course, they can always live in the underwater cities dotted around Irelands coastline and get all those aqua farming jobs :P


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  • #82
    victor8600
    Registered Users Posts: 1,603 ✭✭✭victor8600


    DelaneyIn wrote: »
    A question for those who blame it all on the gubberment. How can they possibly be responsible for building housing and social housing, for people who are yet to move to the country and who have just recently moved here?

    Look at the numbers yourself:
    https://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-social-housing-ireland-then-and-now-3594254-Sep2017/

    councils under recent "gubberments" built much less housing (esp. per capita) than in 1980s. In 2015, "just 75 [houses] were built directly by councils. Charities and co-operatives built or acquired from developers another 400 – so call it 500 homes newly in existence for social housing that year". In 1985, councils built 6,900 social houses.

    So who is to blame? Oh wait, I know -- immigrants, right? :D


  • #83
    beejee
    Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭beejee


    riffmongous wrote: »
    No, they say 'one small area on dorset street'.

    I'm criticising you for being completely misleading, it's why I had to look it up mysel, just as well that I did

    "I ate a mars bar earlier"

    Response. "No! You are completely misleading, you ate 4/5ths of a mars bar!"

    That was a close one alright, phew! All the important information, no stone left unturned. Changes everything.


  • #84
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,346 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    We don't have a housing crisis we have an occupancy issue. To give you an idea, 10 houses on the road I grew up once contained over 50 people now 15. This pattern is repeated from Marino to Swords for the majority of the areas.
    70% under occupancy for a huge portion of housing in Dublin.
    It is madness to say we have a housing crisis when there is more than enough occupancy space.


  • #85
    beejee
    Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭beejee


    victor8600 wrote: »
    Look at the numbers yourself:
    https://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-social-housing-ireland-then-and-now-3594254-Sep2017/

    councils under recent "gubberments" built much less housing (esp. per capita) than in 1980s. In 2015, "just 75 [houses] were built directly by councils. Charities and co-operatives built or acquired from developers another 400 – so call it 500 homes newly in existence for social housing that year". In 1985, councils built 6,900 social houses.

    So who is to blame? Oh wait, I know -- immigrants, right? :D

    Its the combination of recognising the very large factor that immigration plays in the housing crisis, then bringing it to government and elections.

    Pointing a finger at anything on its own does nothing.


  • #86
    BattleCorp
    Registered Users Posts: 11,758 ✭✭✭✭BattleCorp


    beejee wrote: »
    Correct, that is exactly what I am stating.

    As long as immigration is allowed to continue apace as per that primetime episode, you may as well consider the influx of people to be infinite (compare the size of Ireland to nearly every other country on earth, and it may as well be infinite.)

    Therefore, trying to accommodate an infinite number of people by building more means that you need infinite building. Therefore the housing crisis never ends, and in all likelihood continues to worsen.

    Its not rocket science.


    If we don't build more houses, we are fcuked. You do realise that if we don't build more houses, immigration will still happen and you will have Irish people competing with the immigrants for a smaller and smaller pool of houses.

    Plus, if there was no immigration whatsoever, we still need to build houses.

    I think you need to re-examine your science.


  • #87
    beejee
    Registered Users Posts: 1,787 ✭✭✭beejee


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    We don't have a housing crisis we have an occupancy issue. To give you an idea, 10 houses on the road I grew up once contained over 50 people now 15. This pattern is repeated from Marino to Swords for the majority of the areas.
    70% under occupancy for a huge portion of housing in Dublin.
    It is madness to say we have a housing crisis when there is more than enough occupancy space.

    I think older people in particular should be allowed have room to themselves within reason. We shouldn't be hunting for every spare room in the country in order to occupy it. That will lower standard of living.

    Instead of approaching the accommodation problem as a space issue, it should be approached as a "number of people" issue.

    One approach will solve itself in perpetuity. The other approach has no end-point.


  • #88
    Edgware
    Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    beejee wrote: »
    Or maybe they wont.

    Maybe Miguel and Ivanka will cop on that its a good bet to get on the mythical housing list too. And then maybe their friends and family will want a house "near the ma's and da's and friends too".

    The fact is that the numbers are growing. Everything else is hypothetical, and putting more faith in people from other countries, for the sole reason that they are from other countries, is completely erroneous.

    Why is it that all the Miguels and Ivankas seem to be able to get work but a lot of the Decos and Jacintas dont?


  • #89
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,346 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    victor8600 wrote: »
    DelaneyIn wrote: »
    A question for those who blame it all on the gubberment. How can they possibly be responsible for building housing and social housing, for people who are yet to move to the country and who have just recently moved here?

    Look at the numbers yourself:
    https://www.thejournal.ie/factcheck-social-housing-ireland-then-and-now-3594254-Sep2017/

    councils under recent "gubberments" built much less housing (esp. per capita) than in 1980s. In 2015, "just 75 [houses] were built directly by councils. Charities and co-operatives built or acquired from developers another 400 – so call it 500 homes newly in existence for social housing that year". In 1985, councils built 6,900 social houses.

    So who is to blame? Oh wait, I know -- immigrants, right? :D
    There should never be social housing built as there once was. The worst areas in the country are all former council housing. After 60 + years these are still causing trouble and the worst areas. Never again. They also should never have sold social housing to the tenants at massive discounts.


  • #90
    TheAnalyst_
    Registered Users Posts: 1,371 ✭✭✭TheAnalyst_


    True. the number of dwellings in the country is at record levels. Double what is used to be in the very recent past.


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  • #91
    Ray Palmer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,346 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    beejee wrote: »
    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    We don't have a housing crisis we have an occupancy issue. To give you an idea, 10 houses on the road I grew up once contained over 50 people now 15. This pattern is repeated from Marino to Swords for the majority of the areas.
    70% under occupancy for a huge portion of housing in Dublin.
    It is madness to say we have a housing crisis when there is more than enough occupancy space.

    I think older people in particular should be allowed have room to themselves within reason. We shouldn't be hunting for every spare room in the country in order to occupy it. That will lower standard of living.

    Instead of approaching the accommodation problem as a space issue, it should be approached as a "number of people" issue.

    One approach will solve itself in perpetuity. The other approach has no end-point.
    My mother lives in a 5 bed house on her own. How much space do you think she needs to herself? It is already beginning to be too much for her and she needs to downsize. Her neighbour is in a 6 bed house with a pool room and she has never played pool in her life.
    The real problem is they want to stay in the area and there is nothing to downsize to. They could easily split one of the houses into 2 or 3 and have plenty of space separate for each.
    I am not suggesting they take lodgers.


This discussion has been closed.
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