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Reintroduce the Death Penalty in Ireland

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Comments

  • #62
    McCrack
    Registered Users Posts: 2,968 ✭✭✭McCrack


    Sir Pompous Righteousness wrote: »
    Just because it's the law doesn't necessarily mean it's right or even unchangeable.


    It is unchangeable because Ireland voted by referendum to abolish the death penalty and like I have said Ireland signed up to the ECHR which also bans the death penalty. Hence why this thread is moot.

    Whether the death penalty is right or wrong is a matter of opinion but it can never be reintroduced into Ireland.


  • #63
    Sir Pompous Righteousness
    Closed Accounts Posts: 437 ✭✭Sir Pompous Righteousness


    McCrack wrote: »
    It is unchangeable because Ireland voted by referendum to abolish the death penalty and like I have said Ireland signed up to the ECHR which also bans the death penalty. Hence why this thread is moot.
    You're thinking too short term about these petty legal difficulties. You can easily hold another another referendum if you like and Ireland's membership of the EU isn't something that always going to be guaranteed.


  • #64
    McCrack
    Registered Users Posts: 2,968 ✭✭✭McCrack


    Sir Pompous Righteousness wrote: »
    You're thinking too short term about these petty legal difficulties. You can easily hold another another referendum if you like and Ireland's membership of the EU isn't something that always going to be guaranteed.

    No, it is not possible to reverse a constitutional amendment.

    The ECHR is incorporated into Irish law by the European Convention of Human Rights Act. It's not dependent on Ireland's membership of the EU. Irish legislation adopts the Convention.

    The death penalty can never be reintroduced into Ireland.


  • #65
    Dockington
    Closed Accounts Posts: 63 ✭✭Dockington


    Instead of a life for a life it should be life means life. I would increase sentences across the board not just for murder and especially for carrying a knife. Attempted murder or the charge is called should also carry a life sentence. This might stop the huge number of stabbings in this country n recent times


  • #66
    3ndahalfof6
    Registered Users Posts: 5,184 ✭✭✭3ndahalfof6


    McCrack wrote: »
    No, it is not possible to reverse a constitutional amendment.

    The ECHR is incorporated into Irish law by the European Convention of Human Rights Act. It's not dependent on Ireland's membership of the EU. Irish legislation adopts the Convention.

    The death penalty can never be reintroduced into Ireland.

    and so be it, people can find their own recompense, just don't get caught.


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  • #67
    Sir Pompous Righteousness
    Closed Accounts Posts: 437 ✭✭Sir Pompous Righteousness


    McCrack wrote: »
    No, it is not possible to reverse a constitutional amendment.

    Yes it is, via referendum. It has been done many times before. Do you think that the constitution we have at the moment can never be changed?
    McCrack wrote: »
    The ECHR is incorporated into Irish law by the European Convention of Human Rights Act. It's not dependent on Ireland's membership of the EU. Irish legislation adopts the Convention.

    So if Ireland's membership of the EU is not dependent on the ratification of the ECHR, therefore if Ireland revokes the ECHR it will not jepordise its membership, and if the Irish constitution can be changed by referendum, then it is still possible for Ireland to revoke the ECHR and create its own Bill of Rights that doesn't go so far as to make the death penalty unconstitutional.

    Also, government legislation can be changed by via parliamentary statute or judicial review, but I think we're talking about constitutional law here, so it's different.
    McCrack wrote: »
    The death penalty can never be reintroduced into Ireland.

    It can if public opinion was to change for whatever reason and a referendum was to be held thereafter.


  • #68
    Happyman42
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,066 ✭✭✭✭Happyman42


    Sir Pompous Righteousness wrote: »
    .
    Cereal criminals...........

    ....should do porridge?


  • #69
    McCrack
    Registered Users Posts: 2,968 ✭✭✭McCrack


    I'm banging my head off a wall here...

    If the Constitution is changed by referendum (which is the only way to amend the Constitution) that amendment can never be reversed.

    The 21st Amendment to the Constituion introduced a constitutional ban on the death penalty. It amended the Constitution.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-first_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

    Constitutional amendments cannot (and have never been) reversed.


  • #70
    Holsten
    Registered Users Posts: 4,971 ✭✭✭Holsten


    Used to be for it.

    Now I'm older and wiser, totally against it no matter what a person has done.


  • #71
    dttq
    Closed Accounts Posts: 381 ✭✭dttq


    Maybe for the crowd in here.

    http://eire.land.free.fr/photos/voyage/leinster.jpg


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  • #72
    asherbassad
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭asherbassad


    Sir Pompous Righteousness wrote: »
    In my opinion, the punishment of a crime ought to be proportional to the crime itself. I believe that this should be a firm and unwavering legal principle. Therefore, in the case of clear intentional murder, I think that the death penalty ought to be established.

    If you extinguished another human life intentionally, you should pay with your life. If you killed someone and caused them severe pain, distress and torture in the process, the way in which your death sentence is administered should reflect that. For instance, if you tortured, raped and murder someone in the most sadistic way possible, then the way you’re put to death after receiving the death penalty should be slow, tortuous and reflect the inhumanity with which you treated your victim. In my view, it would be morally wrong for you to be humanely execute in such a case, as you didn’t afford your victim such a privilege.

    I do not think that the value of the life of a murdering sadist ought to be treated with the same respect in the eyes of the law as the life of a decent citizen whose greatest run in with the law was a parking ticket. In fact, I take such a view to be an insult to the vast majority of the population. I believe that we need to strike fear into the hearts of the criminal classes and cut the liberal attitude towards punishment and how criminals are treated.

    I simply think that our criminal justice system is a farce, so if you’d like to be spared a dubious unoriginal Liveline-esque rant then I suggest you stop reading now. Cereal/career criminals get off scot-free with legal loopholes and are released shortly afterward into society to continue again where they left off. In hindsight, there is always money to be made off these legal cases:
    More crime = More criminal cases that need legal representation = More money for judges and lawyer specialising in criminal law.
    Therefore, I don’t expect many in the legal profession (especially those whose specialty is criminal law) to push for a reform of the criminal justice system any time soon. However, I'm not going to totally condemn solicitors/barristers/judges though, there is good people in the legal profession.

    The workload of the already understaffed and underfunded Gardaí is increasing all the time because of our twisted legal system. If I got robbed and/or bet up in Dublin City Centre tomorrow afternoon, the chances that the Gardaí would investigate the incident would be slim to none because they have to prioritise their resources on more serious investigations.

    I have a lot of respect for the Gardaí and I think they have to put up with a lot of bullshit as it is. Some Gardaí might even avoid dealing with some cases where they may be putting their life or the lives of their families at risk. If two unarmed Gardaí were to walk down Abbey St. in Dublin on a Friday night and confront a gang who were a visible threat, they might get stabbed or worse and they mightn’t have the time to call for back-up, plus they have no real way of defending themselves then and there. Isn’t it only obvious why GardaI would try to avoid these areas if they could? Would you blame them? After all, they have family and loved ones like everyone else.

    The death penalty will free up overcrowded prisons and make a scumbags think twice about sliding a knife into someone for the sake of a €50 note. Criminals are only profiting from the liberal attitudes that have seeped into the law.

    Don’t get me wrong, I am quite liberal myself in relation to other things like equal rights in front of the law (e.g., marriage equality, abortion, secularisation of the state, etc...). I even agree with the legalisation of most drugs in an effort to get their distribution out of the hands of gangland criminals. In relation to crime and punishment though, I take a different view on things all together.

    /RANT

    By the way, in before “Go live in America”, “How long has it been since we’ve had one of these threads?” or any invocation of Godwin's Law.


    I would absolutely agree with the death penalty for crimes that you mention on condition that if prosecutors, judges, juries and the executioner agreed to forfeit their lives in the case of an innocent person having been put to death.


  • #73
    Sir Pompous Righteousness
    Closed Accounts Posts: 437 ✭✭Sir Pompous Righteousness


    McCrack wrote: »
    I'm banging my head off a wall here...

    If the Constitution is changed by referendum (which is the only way to amend the Constitution) that amendment can never be reversed.

    But can't you introduce another amendment to the constitution via another referendum?

    Wasn't that nearly done in the case of abortion in Ireland? For example the referendum for the Eight Amendment in 1983 was accepted by the people and amended article 40.3.3 of the Constitution. Years later in 1992 the referendum for the Twelfth Amendment, which proposed a further amendment to article 40.3.3 of the Constitution, was rejected by the people, but if it was accepted by the people it would have amended article 40.3.3 again.

    The point here is, that I can't see how such a procedure would be any different if a campaign was launched to change/delete the amendments made in the Twenty-first Amendment via a new referendum that would introduce a further amendment, as nearly happened in the case of abortion in Ireland.


  • #74
    MagicSean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    People who commit violent acts and repeat offenders of petty crime need to be punished more severely. Heinous crimes should have mandatory sentances with no early release.

    At a certain point it becomes more important to protect the public than to try rehabilitate someone who has no interest in it.


  • #75
    WhatNowForUs?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 687 ✭✭✭WhatNowForUs?


    McCrack wrote: »
    I'm banging my head off a wall here...

    If the Constitution is changed by referendum (which is the only way to amend the Constitution) that amendment can never be reversed.

    The 21st Amendment to the Constituion introduced a constitutional ban on the death penalty. It amended the Constitution.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-first_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

    Constitutional amendments cannot (and have never been) reversed.

    Hi I'm not a constitutional lawyer, I'm not even a lawyer but I find it hard to think that if a decision is made it can never be changed back, never ever.
    So I had a quick look and I came up with this from Wikipedia -

    START OF SNIPPET
    Twenty-seventh Amendment of the Constitution of IrelandFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaJump to: navigation, search


    The Twenty-seventh Amendment of the Constitution of Ireland provided that children born on the island of Ireland to parents who were both non-nationals would no longer have a constitutional right to citizenship of the Republic of Ireland. It was effected by the Twenty-seventh Amendment of the Constitution Act, 2004, which was approved by referendum on 11 June 2004 and signed into law on the 24 June of the same year. It partially reversed changes that had previously been made to the constitution as part of the Belfast Agreement of 1998.

    END OF SNIPPET

    Correct me if I'm wrong but does this not say (in bold) that an ammendment has been reversed back in some parts. As I said I'm not a constitional lawyer so point out to me where I'm going wrong here.


  • #76
    murpho999
    Registered Users Posts: 28,386 ✭✭✭✭murpho999


    Sir Pompous Righteousness wrote: »
    Why should it? Why should this "modern society" of your hold back on absolute justice. A modern society in my opinion should administer proper and absolute justice, no exception.

    Had the death penalty before and it didn't prevent crime.

    What's the point in killing people, it doesn't bring victims back.

    Just a mob rule mentality calling for death penalty.


  • #77
    getzls
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 806 ✭✭✭getzls


    McCrack wrote: »

    Constitutional amendments cannot (and have never been) reversed.

    Maybe, without reading the whole thread iv'e missed something.

    If it takes a ref- amendment to change the Irish consititution than the death penalty can be introduced.


  • #78
    FouxDaFaFa
    Registered Users Posts: 6,850 ✭✭✭FouxDaFaFa


    It's been proven in the States that the death penalty isn't a deterrent.

    Innocent people would be killed.

    It's more expensive than keeping them in prison for life.

    No-one should have to be an executioner in the name of the State.


  • #79
    Sir Pompous Righteousness
    Closed Accounts Posts: 437 ✭✭Sir Pompous Righteousness


    FouxDaFaFa wrote: »
    It's more expensive than keeping them in prison for life.

    How much does a bullet cost?


  • #80
    asherbassad
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,869 ✭✭✭asherbassad


    Sir Pompous Righteousness wrote: »
    Why should it? Why should this "modern society" of your hold back on absolute justice. A modern society in my opinion should administer proper and absolute justice, no exception.

    Are you seeking a rational discussion here or is this just a stoking-for-fun exercise on your part?

    You are in favour of killing those who are convicted themselves of having killed, I trust. This favour, it would appear, is based upon personal opinion, not upon societal agreement or popular mood. That being the case can you elucidate as to why many of us opponents of capital punishment are misguided and how capital punishment is not only in society's best interest but is also an appropriate punishment for the transgression committed?


  • #81
    coffee_cake
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Politics Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 81,310 CMod ✭✭✭✭coffee_cake


    The state should absolutely not have that kind of power over people particularly given its incompetence in other areas. Aside from it being wrong on sheer principle, one innocent person dying as a result is one too many.


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  • #82
    GLaDOS
    Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,196 Mod ✭✭✭✭GLaDOS


    Sir Pompous Righteousness wrote: »
    How much does a bullet cost?
    How much does keeping them in prison for 10-15 years while the lengthy appeals are gone through cost?

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



  • #83
    FouxDaFaFa
    Registered Users Posts: 6,850 ✭✭✭FouxDaFaFa


    Sir Pompous Righteousness wrote: »
    How much does a bullet cost?
    It's not the literal cost of the bullet or the poison or what have you, it's the cost of the lead-up to the execution. The appeals, the constant red tape.


  • #84
    A_Sober_Paddy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,221 ✭✭✭A_Sober_Paddy


    ScienceNerd wrote: »
    Sounds great until somebody judged guilty is found innocent a couple of years after they've been killed by the state.

    Well for first time offenders I wouldn't have the death penalty, unless it was a brutal murder or gang activity...But say all those scumbags with 20+ convictions why not let them go to the chair or get the needle, would really thin out the dole ques and make our streets a much safer place


  • #85
    marozz
    Registered Users Posts: 222 ✭✭marozz


    I think life in prison, and I mean life, in solitary confinment would be better than the death penalty. A good example is Ian Brady the moors murderer. He has campaigned for years for the right to kill himself. He has been on hunger strike since 1999 but is being force fed through a tube. In his case, a fate worse than death.


  • #86
    A_Sober_Paddy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,221 ✭✭✭A_Sober_Paddy


    marozz wrote: »
    I think life in prison, and I mean life, in solitary confinment would be better than the death penalty. A good example is Ian Brady the moors murderer. He has campaigned for years for the right to kill himself. He has been on hunger strike since 1999 but is being force fed through a tube. In his case, a fate worse than death.

    That is twisted logic, its not OK to kill someone but torturing someone is A-OK...Messed up


  • #87
    GLaDOS
    Moderators, Regional East Moderators Posts: 23,196 Mod ✭✭✭✭GLaDOS


    A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »
    Well for first time offenders I wouldn't have the death penalty, unless it was a brutal murder or gang activity...
    Both of which someone could be falsely convicted of.
    A_Sober_Paddy wrote: »
    But say all those scumbags with 20+ convictions why not let them go to the chair or get the needle, would really thin out the dole ques and make our streets a much safer place
    Proper jail sentences would be just as effective, if not more effective than the death penalty. It's a problem with the court system that suddenly introducing the death penalty won't help.

    Cake, and grief counseling, will be available at the conclusion of the test



  • #88
    Tigerbaby
    Registered Users Posts: 565 ✭✭✭Tigerbaby


    liberals....

    conservatives who just havent been mugged or attacked yet...


  • #89
    Liamario
    Registered Users Posts: 2,094 ✭✭✭Liamario


    You're effectively murdering people who committed murder.
    It isn't a deterrent as has been shown in many other countries.
    It isn't justice, it's revenge.

    Prison system isn't exactly working either. But, at least if that system worked; people could turn their lives around and try and redeem themselves.


  • #90
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    McCrack wrote: »
    I'm banging my head off a wall here...

    If the Constitution is changed by referendum (which is the only way to amend the Constitution) that amendment can never be reversed.

    The 21st Amendment to the Constituion introduced a constitutional ban on the death penalty. It amended the Constitution.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twenty-first_Amendment_of_the_Constitution_of_Ireland

    Constitutional amendments cannot (and have never been) reversed.

    Can you point at any legal precedent for your statement. That was the same argument run in the US to try and stop the reversal of prohibition.


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  • #91
    Wereghost
    Registered Users Posts: 324 ✭✭Wereghost


    Tigerbaby wrote: »
    liberals....

    conservatives who just havent been mugged or attacked yet...
    No.


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