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MINIMUM DEERHUNTING CALIBER

  • 28-11-2009 8:44pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32


    Hi all just wondering whats the minimum caliber for deer hunting in ireland? can you shoot deer in ireland with .223 or .220 swift? thanks again
    Foxshot


«13

Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 2,489 ✭✭✭No6


    No foxshoot, the minimum listed on the NWPS form is I believe a 22 50 but a 243 is probably the lowest caliber you should be looking at.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,204 ✭✭✭elius


    No think your looking at a 22.250 243 etc


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,999 ✭✭✭clivej


    Simular question was asked last week

    http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055745308


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    22.250 is legal minimum, however 220 swift is legal too with 55 grain bullets ;), .223 not legal at all

    Realistically, .243 should be minimum.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    The legal minimum is .22 calibre centre fire with energy of 1700 ft lbs and a 55 grain bullet.

    .22-250 and .220 swift both meet those criteria.

    But as bunny says you shouldn't be thinking of anything less than .243 because it's available, more appropriate and readily licensable for the purpose.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 94 ✭✭berettadt10


    Lads, the legal min requirnment is now .243 with the ministers new bill, it was min 22/2250 with 55g round. Swift was never legal in this country to get a Hunting licence.
    Cheers


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    Lads, the legal min requirnment is now .243 with the ministers new bill, it was min 22/2250 with 55g round.

    Where is this ?
    Swift was never legal in this country to get a Hunting licence.
    Cheers

    I know of 1 x Swift licenced by NPWS to shoot deer :eek:


  • Registered Users Posts: 584 ✭✭✭steyrman


    Where is this ?



    I know of 1 x Swift licenced by NPWS to shoot deer :eek:
    well if someone got a deer lic on 220 swift there is a problem as min cal is 22.250 the bit of info is the 22. 250 not 220. so someone has fxuked up i know the swift is more than up to the job but the law is the law if the person filled in the deer lic its on it the have to fill in cal make and bullet weight so unless i see the lin i think its a load of bollxx im shooting deer 23 years and i dont listen to ****e like this prove it or remove it please if its right i will hold my hands up but im still hanging on to my post


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    its a bit stupid not allowing the swift as it has identical ballistics to the .22-250 , but anyway i think the min should be the .243 , better calibre all round .


  • Registered Users Posts: 584 ✭✭✭steyrman


    rowa wrote: »
    its a bit stupid not allowing the swift as it has identical ballistics to the .22-250 , but anyway i think the min should be the .243 , better calibre all round .
    i have to disagree with the 243 as being the min cal i shot deer when 22.250 was the most you could have i still thing its better than 243 i have 23 years experience shooting deer so im sure i can make a decent comment on it i have a 308 at the moment and am happy with it also have a lic for 270 that i would not part with i think the 243 is a perfect fox round and hard to beat but i have seen a far to many deer running on hit with them i am intitled to my veiw as i have seen it ouer the years shooting i had a 5.6 but went back to 22.250 savage neck shooting round bit messy on heart and lung shooting but done the job the biggest problem is lads to much choice in rounds stick with the old reliable ones wont let you down


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,096 ✭✭✭bunny shooter


    steyrman wrote: »
    well if someone got a deer lic on 220 swift there is a problem as min cal is 22.250 the bit of info is the 22. 250 not 220. so someone has fxuked up i know the swift is more than up to the job but the law is the law if the person filled in the deer lic its on it the have to fill in cal make and bullet weight so unless i see the lin i think its a load of bollxx im shooting deer 23 years and i dont listen to ****e like this prove it or remove it please if its right i will hold my hands up but im still hanging on to my post

    Under the law a 220 Swift with a 55 grain bullet exceeds the minimum power level required therefore it is legal. Some lad/ladies opinion does not supersede the law, however, we all know this is not necessarily reality :rolleyes:

    As was already stated here sometimes it all depends on who deals with the application or who you know, same as everything else in this country :mad:


  • Registered Users Posts: 584 ✭✭✭steyrman


    Under the law a 220 Swift with a 55 grain bullet exceeds the minimum power level required therefore it is legal. Some lad/ladies opinion does not supersede the law, however, we all know this is not necessarily reality :rolleyes:

    As was already stated here sometimes it all depends on who deals with the application or who you know, same as everything else in this country :mad:
    hi bunny the 220 will not ever exceed the min cal as the law states 22.250 min the swift falls short of legal requirements simple answer the 220, swift cannot and will not match the 22.250 on paper for deer shooting no matter what it can do on the range i tryed for a lic on one 15 years ago and was refused it as it did not meet the legal end of it i would love to see the lic for deer shooting with the swift on it as many of the deer shooters on this site


  • Registered Users Posts: 191 ✭✭ronboy


    I have to agree with steyrman the 22.250 is a brilliant round. I use one for deer aswell and love it. There is no subsitute for accuracy and that is one accurate round


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    There's no minimum specified chambering in the Wildlife Act. SI 239 of 1977 details the requirements for a firearm to be used for hunting deer. They are that it should be of at least .22 calibre, with a muzzle energy of at least 1700 foot pounds. Ammunition must be at least 55 grains. Here is the source. The .220 Swift will make this threshold and so is legal for use on deer. Please stop saying the .22-250 is the minimum calibre by law, because there's no actual law to support you, as there are several cartridges in the same region, equivalent to the job, and comparable to the .22-250. I've filled out the NPWS form as well, and that little section is badly put. It should read .22-250 "or equivalent", as that is what the law states.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 57 ✭✭HUBERTUS


    A .220 Swift fires a bullet the same diameter as the .22/250 ie. .224 inches.
    In 1972 at the time of your legislation Norma ammo for the Swift was 50gr in bullet weight but the muzzle energy was 1877 foot/pounds.
    It had surplus energy but lacked the weight.
    At that time Remington .22/250 ammo was advertised as having 1770 ft/lbs with the 55gr bullet.
    Norma advertised theirs as 55gr SPS bullet at 1637 ft/lbs.

    In 1982 the Remington 55gr ammo was listed as having 1699 ft/lbs.
    Norma reduced their bullet weight for the .22/250 to 53gr.

    The whole thing was a mess !

    Many knowlegeable people at that time turned to the 5.6X57 RWS cartridge which had been developed in Germany for shooting Roe and Chamois.
    It fired a 74gr bullet known as the `kegelspitz`with a muzzle energy of 1910 foot/pounds.

    I had a 5.6X61 Vom Hofe Super Express on my Irish licence for a few years, this was the ultimate at that time with a 77gr bullet and 2350 foot/pounds of energy.

    Currently Remington advertise their .243 ammo as having slightly less than 2000 ft/lbs of energy, only slightly more powerful than the 5.6X57 RWS !
    So much for progress as many on these forums think the .243 is the ultimate.
    Believe me it is not, I have two .243 rifles [ shortly one only ] yet I always pick up the .270 when I go out to shoot a Deer.

    HWH.


  • Registered Users Posts: 584 ✭✭✭steyrman


    There's no minimum specified chambering in the Wildlife Act. SI 239 of 1977 details the requirements for a firearm to be used for hunting deer. They are that it should be of at least .22 calibre, with a muzzle energy of at least 1700 foot pounds. Ammunition must be at least 55 grains. Here is the source. The .220 Swift will make this threshold and so is legal for use on deer. Please stop saying the .22-250 is the minimum calibre by law, because there's no actual law to support you, as there are several cartridges in the same region, equivalent to the job, and comparable to the .22-250. I've filled out the NPWS form as well, and that little section is badly put. It should read .22-250 "or equivalent", as that is what the law states.
    the differance between that section badly put and what it should read is a summons if you are stopped with on the deer and a 220. swift rifle on the application from it states note; the minimum calibre weapon for hunting deer is a rifle of 22/250 calibre which uses bullets weighing not less than 55 grains ; there is no add ons or mention of other calibre under it and no matter what is said the swift is still .220


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    steyrman wrote: »
    the differance between that section badly put and what it should read is a summons if you are stopped with on the deer and a 220. swift rifle on the application from it states note; the minimum calibre weapon for hunting deer is a rifle of 22/250 calibre which uses bullets weighing not less than 55 grains ; there is no add ons or mention of other calibre under it and no matter what is said the swift is still .220

    The form isn't the law steyrman, the wildlife act is. .22-250 is a .22 calibre as well. Here's the full comparison:

    |.22-250|.220 Swift
    Bullet diameter|.224 in|.224 in
    Neck diameter|.254 in|.260 in
    Shoulder diameter|.414 in|.402 in
    Base diameter|.469 in|.445 in
    Rim diameter|.473 in|.473 in
    Case length|1.912 in|2.205 in


    Bullet weight|Velocity|Energy|Velocity|Energy
    |.22-250||.220 Swift||
    40 gr|4,224 ft/s|1,585 ft·lbf|4,213 ft/s|1,577 ft·lbf
    50 gr|3,945 ft/s|1,728 ft·lbf|3,947 ft/s|1,730 ft·lbf
    55 gr|3,786 ft/s|1,751 ft·lbf|3,839 ft/s|1,800 ft·lbf
    60 gr|3,580 ft/s|1,708 ft·lbf|3,647 ft/s|1,772 ft·lbf


    The swift in 55 grain is longer, faster and has more energy than the .22-250 and exceeds the requirements under the wildlife act. It's perfectly legal to use, but as I said in an earlier post, it's better to use the .243 or greater as there's no reason to use a .22 centre fire calibre.

    Would you actually read the link it wasn't me posted?


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    steyrman wrote: »
    the differance between that section badly put and what it should read is a summons if you are stopped with on the deer and a 220. swift rifle on the application from it states note; the minimum calibre weapon for hunting deer is a rifle of 22/250 calibre which uses bullets weighing not less than 55 grains ; there is no add ons or mention of other calibre under it and no matter what is said the swift is still .220

    Anyone who issues a summons in that situation is going to take one in the hole from the world's most useless legal professional in court, since the law is absolutely, incontrovertibly, explicitly clear that a .220 Swift will make the grade and is perfectly legal to use provided you have a deer hunting licence. Might also be worth noting that where it says "minimum", the .220 Swift exceeds the .22-250 by a small margin, so it qualifies there too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭deerhunter1


    foxshot wrote: »
    Hi all just wondering whats the minimum caliber for deer hunting in ireland? can you shoot deer in ireland with .223 or .220 swift? thanks again
    Foxshot

    I always thought a 223 (5.56) was legal for deer, i know people who had them for years for deer hunting.

    Would the super give me a licence for this


  • Registered Users Posts: 584 ✭✭✭steyrman


    well lads if you would like to ring npws in the morning and ask them if its ok to use the 220 swift or anything else under what is stated on the form your more than welcome i would like to see the the hunting lic the was granted for the swift i know its up to the job but i is not a deer hunting round here the start at 22/250 and up we dont make the laws just work with them it good that people still like the swift i have stated i owned one for 7 years burnt a barrel out and rebarreled it its still shooting as good as new


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    Would you please, for sanity's sake, read the *ACTUAL LAW* I've linked to above, which gives the requirements. The simple fact is that the .220 Swift meets those requirements. It *IS* a deer-hunting calibre in Irish law. You state we don't make the laws, merely work with them, and you're right, so why don't you read the one above?


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,693 ✭✭✭deerhunter1


    steyrman wrote: »
    well lads if you would like to ring npws in the morning and ask them if its ok to use the 220 swift or anything else under what is stated on the form your more than welcome i would like to see the the hunting lic the was granted for the swift i know its up to the job but i is not a deer hunting round here the start at 22/250 and up we dont make the laws just work with them it good that people still like the swift i have stated i owned one for 7 years burnt a barrel out and rebarreled it its still shooting as good as new

    Yep I would like to see it as well, the minimum is 22/250 the 220 was never on the list


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    Yep I would like to see it as well, the minimum is 22/250 the 220 was never on the list

    There is no "list". There are a set of requirements, which I've linked to above. The .220 Swift meets them. In Irish law, it's a deer-hunting calibre.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    steyrman wrote: »
    well lads if you would like to ring npws in the morning and ask them if its ok to use the 220 swift or anything else under what is stated on the form your more than welcome
    The .220 swift is over the .22-250, not under it. It's a bigger case, larger load, same size bullet, what's smaller about it?
    i would like to see the the hunting lic the was granted for the swift i know its up to the job but i is not a deer hunting round here the start at 22/250 and up we dont make the laws just work with them it good that people still like the swift i have stated i owned one for 7 years burnt a barrel out and rebarreled it its still shooting as good as new
    There are quite a few out there. In fact if you do a bit of a search on this forum you'll probably find a few people who have got them for deer.

    And nobody's advising anyone to get a .22 of any flavour for deer, just pointing out the actual law and not the made up stuff.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    I always thought a 223 (5.56) was legal for deer, i know people who had them for years for deer hunting.
    Nope, doesn't even come close.

    Weight|Velocity|Energy
    55 gr|3,240 ft/s|1,282 ft·lbf
    60 gr|3,160 ft/s|1,330 ft·lbf
    69 gr|2,950 ft/s|1,333 ft·lbf
    77 gr|2,750 ft/s|1,293 ft·lbf


  • Registered Users Posts: 584 ✭✭✭steyrman


    There is no "list". There are a set of requirements, which I've linked to above. The .220 Swift meets them. In Irish law, it's a deer-hunting calibre.
    on your deer lic it states min cal 22/250 not any less so i take it its 22/250 and above i have read the law that you stated and agree with you but its on paper it dont mention any lower the above you can quota it to me all day try your local ranger office and see what you come back with i was refused a deer hunting lic on the swift 15 year ago my paper work was sent back to me because i put down 220. swift with 55 grain bullet weight most of the factory rounds are 40 grn and 50 not to many stock 55 or 60 grain as the would tumble and end up keyhole on paper this happened with the 60 grn more as the rate of twist did not suit as i have stated i would like to see the deer hunt lic that was granted on the 220 swift the problem is what we have and want are 2 different things i know in uk the allow stalkers to use 222,223, on roe and munjac but thats there thing im not worried what the have my main point is i was refused a deer lic with the swift has the law changed on it if it has i hold my hands up but if not were back to normal


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,034 ✭✭✭✭It wasn't me!


    The law has been there since 1977. It has not changed. The issue is that if the NPWS refused you for the .220 Swift, it doesn't mean it's not deer-legal, just that in that instance they decided not to grant a licence for it. They're under no obligation to do so as far as I know. They could hypothetically refuse a .243 if the issuing officer deemed it marginal or insufficient for the deer in the area you're planning to shoot. In any case, as RRPC highlights, the .220 Swift is a more powerful calibre than the .22-250. There's not much in the difference, but it's there.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,296 ✭✭✭rowa


    steyrman wrote: »
    on your deer lic it states min cal 22/250 not any less so i take it its 22/250 and above i have read the law that you stated and agree with you but its on paper it dont mention any lower the above you can quota it to me all day try your local ranger office and see what you come back with i was refused a deer hunting lic on the swift 15 year ago my paper work was sent back to me because i put down 220. swift with 55 grain bullet weight most of the factory rounds are 40 grn and 50 not to many stock 55 or 60 grain as the would tumble and end up keyhole on paper this happened with the 60 grn more as the rate of twist did not suit as i have stated i would like to see the deer hunt lic that was granted on the 220 swift the problem is what we have and want are 2 different things i know in uk the allow stalkers to use 222,223, on roe and munjac but thats there thing im not worried what the have my main point is i was refused a deer lic with the swift has the law changed on it if it has i hold my hands up but if not were back to normal

    but rrpc is correct , if you had a deer hunting licence and several rifles including a .220 swift and decided one morning to use it to take a deer and did so , were stopped by a ranger and charged with using an unsuitable rifle and taken to court , you'd win your case because the swift ballistics are demonstrably in excess of the minimum required by the law, all's it takes are a weighing scales and a chronograph , it would be throw out of court .
    that having been said ,this is ireland and the law is sometimes a hindrance to those who inforce it , e.g. a pistol ban for thirty odd years that had no basis in actual law.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,244 ✭✭✭rrpc


    You were probably refused the swift because there were larger calibres available then. The point is that the 22-250 is the minimum because as the chart above shows, it is a lower powered calibre than the swift (with a 55grain bullet).


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 32 foxshot


    thanks lads great info there and nice debate to!
    foxshot


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