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Ireland Team Talk XI: Team of nervoUS MOD warning Post 1

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Comments

  • #2372
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,953 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    The whole point was about provincial development and the effect central contracts has on Ireland.

    Someone mentioned about leinster having more central contacts therefore they've have money to spend on foreign players.. Ironically name checking tomane.

    The point I was making is that leinster do not fill their squad with foreign players, but actually have a ridiculously high number of leinster developed players. I incorrectly referred to foreign players as NIQ, when my point was about in house developed versus externally developed.

    Its true that munster and Ulster have serious problems developing players to senior level, especially to test level.

    It is that this is somehows leinsters fault that I have a problem with.


  • #2373
    jacothelad
    Registered Users Posts: 5,902 ✭✭✭jacothelad


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    The whole point was about provincial development and the effect central contracts has on Ireland.

    Someone mentioned about leinster having more central contacts therefore they've have money to spend on foreign players.. Ironically name checking tomane.

    The point I was making is that leinster do not fill their squad with foreign players, but actually have a ridiculously high number of leinster developed players. I incorrectly referred to foreign players as NIQ, when my point was about in house developed versus externally developed.

    Its true that munster and Ulster have serious problems developing players to senior level, especially to test level.

    It is that this is somehows leinsters fault that I have a problem with.


    Anyone who thinks this is wildly out of touch with reality. In Ulster's case the lack of development of players is really due to a slow decline in interest in rugby across the board and serial mismanagement of the business side, the Academy and the coaching. There are many reasons for this 'malaise' but together they have led to the current situation. Things have changed in schools due in no small measure to pathetic, parochial, political interference and things have changed in society, particularly in that section of N.I. which traditionally was interested in and contributed to the game.


  • #2374
    Zzippy
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,166 Mod ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    thats a fair point about the player welfare.. i suppose it is just more in your face in regards to the irish first teamers and the lack of provincial games they play. for example i cant see the IRFU having much influence in ulster in regards to the amount of games mcclousky, marshall, gilroy etc play.

    in regard to leinster and their foreign players... well leinster have significantly less NIQs than other provinces, so its doesnt make any sense to try to argue that by having more players on CC leinster has more money to entice NIQ players. nucifora has to sign off on every singing anyway.
    Tomane is actually a pretty poor example of how cc savings should be spent.
    Ulster have carter and coetzee and i would be very surprises they are on less of a wedge than tomane.

    its not a level playing field because leinster develop such high quality players. simple as. As long as leinster are feeding the provinces players in lieu of the provinces developing their won, it will remain to be an unequal playing field.

    Of course it's not a level playing field. Leinster have a lot of natural advantages in terms of population, number of clubs, schools, etc and they therefore contribute disproportionately to the national team. They have huge commercial advantages too in terms of population, urban concentration, access to large market, sponsorship and greater income. The question I was posing, in relation to central contracts, is whether Leinster really need the additional help with their budget that CCs give them.

    Wrt your last point, if the provinces didn't take some of Leinster's excess players they would have few other options - they can't all get pro contracts in Leinster. Leinster-developed players moving to other provinces is a good thing for Irish rugby. And let's not forget, it's not all one-way traffic, and other teams have suffered quite badly from Leinster cherry picking players they have developed.


  • #2375
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,953 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Cherry picking?
    I thought provinces were not allowed offer higher contracts than others


  • #2376
    Richie_Rich89
    Registered Users Posts: 1,066 ✭✭✭Richie_Rich89


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Cherry picking?
    I thought provinces were not allowed offer higher contracts than others

    Mike McCarthy, Fionn Carr, Robbie Henshaw, Sean Cronin.

    I think 'cherrypicking' describes the situation quite nicely.


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  • #2377
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Zzippy wrote: »
    Of course it's not a level playing field. Leinster have a lot of natural advantages in terms of population, number of clubs, schools, etc and they therefore contribute disproportionately to the national team. They have huge commercial advantages too in terms of population, urban concentration, access to large market, sponsorship and greater income. The question I was posing, in relation to central contracts, is whether Leinster really need the additional help with their budget that CCs give them.

    Wrt your last point, if the provinces didn't take some of Leinster's excess players they would have few other options - they can't all get pro contracts in Leinster. Leinster-developed players moving to other provinces is a good thing for Irish rugby. And let's not forget, it's not all one-way traffic, and other teams have suffered quite badly from Leinster cherry picking players they have developed.


    Leinster like all the provinces are not allowed to offer a contract with better terms to the other provinces. If a player is on a central contract they can move to any province and get paid the same money.



    The reason players are on central contracts is because they deserve the additional wages because they are the best in that position in the country. Is the new train of thought that because players are with Leinster they dont deserve to be paid the highest wage? an inferior player at another province should be given it instead?





    Who has Leinster cherry picked? If you are talking about Henshaw well all the provinces offered the same money. He decided to go to Leinster. About time people got over one transfer. How many players have left Leinster since????


  • #2378
    Zzippy
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,166 Mod ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    Cherry picking?
    I thought provinces were not allowed offer higher contracts than others

    Who said anything about offering higher contracts? There are other ways to tempt players to move. It's just a bit rich hearing some Leinster fans on a high horse about developing players for other provinces when they're not averse to taking some of the best developed players from those provinces.
    It's a bit more galling when those players subsequently get central contracts with Leinster, a CC which could have really helped the other province with their meagre playing budget.


  • #2379
    Former Former
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,728 ✭✭✭Former Former


    It's not that Leinster cherry picked anyone, it's just that it was always a better place to go, for winning trophies and furthering international prospects. They didn't have to tempt the players, the players just wanted to go.

    Maybe that will be a thing of the past if Connacht can consistently qualify for Europe.


  • #2380
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,335 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    The whole point was about provincial development and the effect central contracts has on Ireland.

    Someone mentioned about leinster having more central contacts therefore they've have money to spend on foreign players.. Ironically name checking tomane.

    The point I was making is that leinster do not fill their squad with foreign players, but actually have a ridiculously high number of leinster developed players. I incorrectly referred to foreign players as NIQ, when my point was about in house developed versus externally developed.

    Its true that munster and Ulster have serious problems developing players to senior level, especially to test level.

    It is that this is somehows leinsters fault that I have a problem with.
    I don't think anyone thinks this is Leinster's fault.

    I just took issue with the idea that the current setup is working for Irish Rugby as a whole, when my view is that it's only one province who are ever consistently any good. I took issue with the idea that all the other teams need to do is try a bit harder to develop some players, which the reality is they will never match Leinster in this department, so holding them to the same standards is grossly unfair.

    I have no issue with Leinster having the majority of the central contracts, but the IRFU should therefore be devoting serious resources, including money, into the other three provinces to get them up to the same standard. They should be allowed to sign more foreign players to raise the standards if required. Having the same "rules" for Leinster as everyone else really makes a mockery of the whole thing.

    If another decade goes by and Leinster dominate it like they've done the decade just past then this is either a failure on the part of the IRFU, or we're all being sold snake oil right now and this charade of "four proud provinces" needs to end.

    There is a reason most sports don't allow an owner to own multiple clubs.


  • #2381
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,953 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Zzippy wrote: »
    Who said anything about offering higher contracts? There are other ways to tempt players to move. It's just a bit rich hearing some Leinster fans on a high horse about developing players for other provinces when they're not averse to taking some of the best developed players from those provinces.
    It's a bit more galling when those players subsequently get central contracts with Leinster, a CC which could have really helped the other province with their meagre playing budget.

    So you know the playing budgets of each province?
    Do you know how much the IRFU give towards each province to pay salaries?
    Do you know how much money each province generates which goes towards salaries?

    If you do, please share.

    Also, who have leinster "taken"?
    The only players in the last 10 years I can think of are cronin and Henshaw?

    Cronin had reached his ceiling at connacht, and unashamedly had ambitions beyond what they could offer, and with fogarty retiring there was a spot at leinster. And that was 8 years ago.

    Henshaws reasons for leaving connacht are well documented at this stage.

    Anyone else? Or is that the extent of leinsters 'poaching' ??


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  • #2382
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    awec wrote: »
    I don't think anyone thinks this is Leinster's fault.

    I just took issue with the idea that the current setup is working for Irish Rugby as a whole, when my view is that it's only one province who are ever consistently any good. I took issue with the idea that all the other teams need to do is try a bit harder to develop some players, which the reality is they will never match Leinster in this department, so holding them to the same standards is grossly unfair.

    I have no issue with Leinster having the majority of the central contracts, but the IRFU should therefore be devoting serious resources, including money, into the other three provinces to get them up to the same standard. They should be allowed to sign more foreign players to raise the standards if required. Having the same "rules" for Leinster as everyone else really makes a mockery of the whole thing.

    If another decade goes by and Leinster dominate it like they've done the decade just past then this is either a failure on the part of the IRFU, or we're all being sold snake oil right now and this charade of "four proud provinces" needs to end.


    Nobody is asking the other provinces to match Leinster....


    But Munster having 1 Munster born player under 30 in a World Cup squad is hardly developing players now is it?



    Why should the provinces be allowed to sign more foreigner players? just to stop any chance of a young player getting into the squad?



    ulster only started to turn the corner when they stopping bringing in player on huge contracts and promoted all the young players. Now you want to go back to big money signing like Piutau??? a player who got massive wages and wasn't fit half the time......


    Is that the new answer?


  • #2383
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,335 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Nobody is asking the other provinces to match Leinster....


    But Munster having 1 Munster born player under 30 in a World Cup squad is hardly developing players now is it?



    Why should the provinces be allowed to sign more foreigner players? just to stop any chance of a young player getting into the squad?



    ulster only started to turn the corner when they stopping bringing in player on huge contracts and promoted all the young players. Now you want to go back to big money signing like Piutau??? a player who got massive wages and wasn't fit half the time......


    Is that the new answer?

    If they want to win anything they'll have to match Leinster. Leinster have better players togging out for their A team every week than the other provinces can produce. It is hard to compete with the money and resources floating around the east of the country.

    Again, as I pointed out earlier, you have no idea whether Munster have got any worse at developing players, or whether they (and the others) have just been unable to keep up with the advances made by Leinster due to a lack of money and resources.

    The best Ulster team in over a decade was built on the back of key NIQs. I'd go back to those days in a heartbeat.


  • #2384
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    So you know the playing budgets of each province?
    Do you know how much the IRFU give towards each province to pay salaries?
    Do you know how much money each province generates which goes towards salaries?

    If you do, please share.

    Also, who have leinster "taken"?
    The only players in the last 10 years I can think of are cronin and Henshaw?

    Cronin had reached his ceiling at connacht, and unashamedly had ambitions beyond what they could offer, and with fogarty retiring there was a spot at leinster. And that was 8 years ago.

    Henshaws reasons for leaving connacht are well documented at this stage.

    Anyone else? Or is that the extent of leinsters 'poaching' ??


    As usual, all these discussion end up in "Bad bad Leinster"



    then we get the



    "poor poor XYZ province"



    We should disregards the facts some of these provinces have hired poor management teams, brought in poor player from abroad and wasted millions and millions of the years.....but all of that is forgot because Leinster are bad......


  • #2385
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,953 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    when the discussion in the Ireland thread turns to "provinces should be allowed sign more foreign players"... you know we have some serious problems.


  • #2386
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,177 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    awec wrote: »
    Says who? Again, as I pointed out earlier, you have no idea whether Munster have got any worse at developing players, or whether they (and the others) have just been unable to keep up with the advances made by Leinster due to a lack of money and resources.

    The best Ulster team in over a decade was built on the back of key NIQs. I'd go back to those days in a heartbeat. Your example is poor.

    Also, take Andrew Conway for example, who falls outside Shef’s criteria. Would he be the player he is today if he had stayed at Leinster and gotten far less game time? I don’t think so. Instead, he moved to Munster at 22, 6 years ago, with a better chance of first team appearances. Munster are due some credit for his development also.

    Munster need to do more, but I think overlooking examples like Conway doesn’t tell the full story either.


  • #2387
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,335 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    As usual, all these discussion end up in "Bad bad Leinster"



    then we get the



    "poor poor XYZ province"



    We should disregards the facts some of these provinces have hired poor management teams, brought in poor player from abroad and wasted millions and millions of the years.....but all of that is forgot because Leinster are bad......

    What on earth are you on about?

    Nobody is going on about bad bad Leinster. Are you struggling to comprehend this discussion, or are you being deliberately obtuse?


  • #2388
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    So today we have gone from just handing out Central Contracts to anyone to get them off the wage bill at a particular province to just buying in players with no thought or consideration to the Irish team

    Didn't take too long after the WC to forget all about ireland and bringing more young Irish player through the system.....

    Now the answer is, f**k the young Irish lad when we can get someone in from NZ or Aus.....


  • #2389
    awec
    Administrators Posts: 53,335 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭awec


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    So today we have gone from just handing out Central Contracts to anyone to get them off the wage bill at a particular province to just buying in players with no thought or consideration to the Irish team

    Didn't take too long after the WC to forget all about ireland and bringing more young Irish player through the system.....

    Now the answer is, f**k the young Irish lad when we can get someone in from NZ or Aus.....

    You're the same Shefwedfan who was whinging when Leinster players moved province? This whole "it's all about the Irish team" only really applies so long as Leinster get to keep their players and remain top dogs, right?

    Give us a break.


  • #2390
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    aloooof wrote: »
    Also, take Andrew Conway for example, who falls outside Shef’s criteria. Would he be the player he is today if he had stayed at Leinster and gotten far less game time? I don’t think so. Instead, he moved to Munster at 22, 6 years ago, with a better chance of first team appearances. Munster are due some credit for his development also.

    Munster need to do more, but I think overlooking examples like Conway doesn’t tell the full story either.


    Conway was playing first team rugby with Leinster, he was the starting winger and started in both finals that seasons.....


    if anything he went from pushing to start for Ireland at the end of that season to hardly making squads for a number of years.



    Would it have been the same if he stays? well nobody knows. At this stage he could be the nailed on winger for Ireland and Leinster. It's all guess work but you brought it up......up till his form since the start of this season he was a maybe in the World Cup squad


  • #2391
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    awec wrote: »
    You're the same Shefwedfan who was whinging when Leinster players moved province? This whole "it's all about the Irish team" only really applies so long as Leinster get to keep their players and remain top dogs, right?

    Give us a break.


    No I wasn't "whinging".....


    I still maintain the Carbery move was wrong because I think he is better at 15, also at that time Munster had plenty of alternatives and if anything he should have went to Ulster if he wanted to play 10. Munster ended up moving a home grown 10 out of the club to make space, up to Ulster, how does that make sense?



    Nordi and McGrath I have never whinged and I was extremely happy to see Marty moore coming back to Ulster.



    It's the Ireland thread, if you want to discuss signing more NIQ it's not really the place for that.


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  • #2392
    Zzippy
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 14,166 Mod ✭✭✭✭Zzippy


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    So you know the playing budgets of each province?
    Do you know how much the IRFU give towards each province to pay salaries?
    Do you know how much money each province generates which goes towards salaries?

    If you do, please share.

    Also, who have leinster "taken"?
    The only players in the last 10 years I can think of are cronin and Henshaw?

    Cronin had reached his ceiling at connacht, and unashamedly had ambitions beyond what they could offer, and with fogarty retiring there was a spot at leinster. And that was 8 years ago.

    Henshaws reasons for leaving connacht are well documented at this stage.

    Anyone else? Or is that the extent of leinsters 'poaching' ??
    Zzippy wrote: »
    It's also a very opaque system, with the lack of transparency in IRFU accounts and selection criteria for CCs not helping.

    As I wrote, no, there is a lack of transparency that doesn't permit that level of scrutiny. If you have evidence to contradict the common perception that Leinsters playing budget a significantly ahead feel free to provide it. Welsh rugby journalist Simon Thomas has written about this and estimated playing budgets but I haven't time to Google his articles.
    As to other players, Mike McCarthy is another one. Fionn Carr and Cian Kelleher are two more. All of those players severely weakened Connacht's squad, you couldn't argue Carr and Kelleher were actually needed at Leinster.


  • #2393
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    Zzippy wrote: »
    As I wrote, no, there is a lack of transparency that doesn't permit that level of scrutiny. If you have evidence to contradict the common perception that Leinsters playing budget a significantly ahead feel free to provide it. Welsh rugby journalist Simon Thomas has written about this and estimated playing budgets but I haven't time to Google his articles.
    As to other players, Mike McCarthy is another one. Fionn Carr and Cian Kelleher are two more. All of those players severely weakened Connacht's squad, you couldn't argue Carr and Kelleher were actually needed at Leinster.


    Cian Kelleher? really? a Leinster player who moved down and wanted to return? now that is called cherry picking?

    So in total you have come up with 6 players is it?? thats over how many years??

    How many have moved in the other direction?


  • #2394
    prawnsambo
    Registered Users Posts: 12,984 ✭✭✭✭prawnsambo


    Zzippy wrote: »
    As I wrote, no, there is a lack of transparency that doesn't permit that level of scrutiny. If you have evidence to contradict the common perception that Leinsters playing budget a significantly ahead feel free to provide it. Welsh rugby journalist Simon Thomas has written about this and estimated playing budgets but I haven't time to Google his articles.
    As to other players, Mike McCarthy is another one. Fionn Carr and Cian Kelleher are two more. All of those players severely weakened Connacht's squad, you couldn't argue Carr and Kelleher were actually needed at Leinster.
    To be fair Zzippy, Fionn Carr and Cian Kelleher were both Leinster developed players. Carr was actually needed at the time (played 37 times) and went back to Connacht after two seasons with Leinster. Kelleher I have no clue about, but he was (imo) a loss at the time.


  • #2395
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 40,953 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    Zzippy wrote: »
    As I wrote, no, there is a lack of transparency that doesn't permit that level of scrutiny. If you have evidence to contradict the common perception that Leinsters playing budget a significantly ahead feel free to provide it. .

    We're not taking about Leinsters playing budget, we're taking about finances paid by IRFU to pay salaries. Wouldnt it make compete sense that due to leinster having more centrally contacted players, they would receive a lot less direct funding from Irfu to pay wages?

    Its also pertinent to realise that without top Ireland performances AND provinces in Europe, the IRFU world be in serious trouble financially.
    They turned a profit of 1.2m in 2018, and over 2m came in from provinces profits from europe.... So its arguable that teams like leinster actually pay for themselves.
    Zzippy wrote: »
    As to other players, Mike McCarthy is another one. Fionn Carr and Cian Kelleher are two more. All of those players severely weakened Connacht's squad, you couldn't argue Carr and Kelleher were actually needed at Leinster.

    Seriously?

    Mike Mccarthy that connacht released early in in his career??

    And as far Carr.. As you say, never needed at leinster, so makes you wonder why they left connacht..... Was it because he was a kildare man maybe?

    I hope cian kelleher comes good, but come on, surely that's not really part of your argument.


  • #2396
    aloooof
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 10,177 Mod ✭✭✭✭aloooof


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    Conway was playing first team rugby with Leinster, he was the starting winger and started in both finals that seasons.....

    Sorry Shef but I don’t think this is true.

    Drico missed the Amlin final so McFadden was moved to centre, and Conway introduced.

    Rob Kearney missed the Pro 12 final so Nacewa was moved to 15, and Conway introduced. (Conway was even named on the bench initially).

    He started both finals, but that doesn’t mean he was the starting winger that season.


  • #2397
    Shefwedfan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 18,958 ✭✭✭✭Shefwedfan


    aloooof wrote: »
    Sorry Shef but I don’t think this is true.

    Drico missed the Amlin final so McFadden was moved to centre, and Conway introduced.

    Rob Kearney missed the Pro 12 final so Nacewa was moved to 15, and Conway introduced. (Conway was even named on the bench initially).

    He started both finals, but that doesn’t mean he was the starting winger that season.

    If you say so......

    PS the point was not the number of Munster players in the ireland WCsquad, it’s the number of Munster born, they included Cronin in that analysis as well....only 1, Scannell, is under 30

    This is not me, as mentioned this was a topic on demented mole podcast


  • #2398
    nerd69
    Registered Users Posts: 9,630 ✭✭✭nerd69


    Munsters pipeline had been poor for the bones of a decade but if you look at the young talent coming through now a they seem to have fixed the pipeline hopefully we will see this talent develop. Having said that I would wager Leinster will still develop more players due to sheer numbers (plus I would wager there is more money in the Leinster schools system which won't hurt)
    Either way at some point you have guys who won't get games in Leinster that should probably be moved to somewhere that they can get games if they want to.


  • #2399
    thomond2006
    Registered Users Posts: 45,433 ✭✭✭✭thomond2006


    Shefwedfan wrote: »
    No I wasn't "whinging".....

    I still maintain the Carbery move was wrong because I think he is better at 15, also at that time Munster had plenty of alternatives and if anything he should have went to Ulster if he wanted to play 10. Munster ended up moving a home grown 10 out of the club to make space, up to Ulster, how does that make sense?

    Munster moved Johnston out to make room for Ben Healy. It makes sense.

    Carbery didn't want to go to Ulster. Schmidt confirmed this.


  • #2400
    Dave_The_Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 7,328 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep


    In fairness, he probably didn't want to go to Munster either, but there he went. And that's OK.


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  • #2401
    Burkie1203
    Registered Users Posts: 11,105 ✭✭✭✭Burkie1203


    Niallof9 wrote: »
    and the IRFU let one of the most talented Munster backs leave so they could give a central contract to Devin Toner or Jack McGrath. Genius really.


    Nope.

    Zebo chose to leave having been offered a contract which was the biggest of his career in Ireland. He has made no secret of his desire to play over in France prior to this.

    Toner and McGrath won Heineken Cup in the same season Zebo finished at Munster.


This discussion has been closed.
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