Ireland's Jewish community

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Yeah I know. Kind of makes what the IRA did even more disgusting really doesn't it?

Well, there's no shortage of disgusting things done by the IRA over the years, is there?

But, is has to be said, IRA co-operation with the Nazis was mostly opportunistic, and not based on any kind of shared antisemitism. It may be deplorable that elements in the IRA were prepared to overlook Hitler's antisemitism, but they certainly weren't drawn to it. Even Sean Russell, the most notorious of the IRA figures to line up with the Nazis, wasn't ideological about it; he was equally ready to line up with the Bolsheviks in the 1920s. He was simply a totally one-eyed old-fashioned militant nationalist, and would co-operate with anybody in any way that he thought would advance his cause.

Jim O'Donovan, another IRA figure involved in contacts with the Nazis, does seem to have become pro-Nazi himself. Interestingly, though, he started out co-operating with the Nazis for purely pragmatic reasons; it is only after some exposure to them that he started to express ideological commitment. In 1942 he is writing about an independent Ireland allying itself with Germany in a common struggle against international freemasonry and Jewry. By this point the Germans had lost interest in the IRA as potential collaborators (because they were useless, basically) and it's possible that O'Donovan was writing this stuff in an attempt to maintain their enthusiasm. But those who knew him say no, it was sincere. Either way, he stoppped publicly taking this line after 1945, for obvious reasons. By then he had become a fairly marginal figure in Irish republicanism. I don't think he ever renounced the views he had expressed during the war.

Tony EH wrote: »

The IRA "supported" Hitler as much as they supported Churchill.

The only contact the IRA had with the nazis was on an extremely low level as the Germans were interested in seeing how they could so seeds of armed conflict in Ireland to draw some British focus away from their prosecution of the war on them. When the Germans realised that any armed struggle was going to cause them more of a headache than a relief, they lost interest.

The interest of the Irish, on the other hand, extended to what and how much the Germans could give them to fight the British on their island. Their primary delivery concern being in the shape of a Mauser K98.

The IRA used the Germans as an arms funnel, because A. It was impossible to get weapons elsewhere and B. The Germans were willing and had to means to hand them over.

I am sorry but this is complete fabrication and a serious crime against the truth in what was a diabolical act by the IRA. It can never be forgiven.

It must never be forgotten.

There are many memorials to these monsters.

They even tried to engineer a nazi invasion of NI. https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1359872/IRA-plotted-with-Nazis-to-invade-Northern-Ireland.html

A PLOT by the IRA to link up with the Nazis to invade Northern Ireland during the Second World War was disclosed in secret service files published by the Public Record Office yesterday.

According to the MI5 records, Germany parachuted a spy into Southern Ireland in 1940 to assess the feasibility of the plan after being approached by the terrorist group.

The IRA aided Nazi intelligence, organised safe houses for spies and guided Luftwaffe bombings of Belfast and Londonderry.

The Sinn Fein leader JJ O'Kelly, in 1940, praised Hitler for freeing Germany from the "heel" of the

"Jewish white slave traffic".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_J._O%27Kelly

JJ O'Kelly was possibly one of the most anti semitic men in Ireland at the time. My grandfather used to tell me about him.

In 1916, members of Ireland's Jewish community protested after the Bulletin published a series of articles by Fr. T.H. Burbage accusing the Jewish community of carrying out ritual murders ; O'Kelly refused to apologise for the articles.

The IRA's publication War News expressed satisfaction that "the 'cleansing fire' of the German armies was driving the Jews from Europe".

In relation to Sean Russell, while the stormtroopers were pillaging their way through Europe, Russell was given diplomatic status by the Nazis when he arrived in Berlin in May 1940.

They absolutely supported the Nazis both ideologically and physically. They also supported there anti-semitism That is a fact and there is undeniable proof.

There is a past that Sinn Fein has never addressed. Same with the blueshirts quite frankly.

Tony EH wrote: »

^

supports your position that the IRA, as an organisation, were pro nazi.

Please just stop.

They guided the luftwaffe to help them bomb belfast.

900 people died.

The IRA activist said that he gathered intelligence information about vulnerable targets before and after the Germans carried out the four air raids in 1941, and also reported on damage caused in the attacks.
After the raids the IRA produced a 14-page survey of the damage caused by the Luftwaffe and provided information and advice for the Axis power.

The document was intercepted though and that was how it came to be known that the IRA had guided the luftwaffe to targets in Belfast.

The typescript IRA document was entitled Comprehensive Military Report on Belfast and was "issued by the director of intelligence in co-operation with the military intelligence officer of northern command".

It came to light on October 20, 1941, when an IRA courier was arrested in Dublin and the document was found in her handbag.

Belfast was crucial to allied forces as it was key in manufacturing weapons for the allies in the war effort.

https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/opinion/columnists/nelson-mccausland/its-now-time-for-sinn-fein-to-say-sorry-for-iras-role-in-helping-nazi-warplanes-obliterate-large-parts-of-our-city-34645486.html

The IRA report gave a detailed account of the damage caused by the Luftwaffe and identified targets which had escaped destruction. There was also a map on which the IRA had marked "the remaining and most outstanding objects of military significance, as yet unblitzed by the Luftwaffe".

The report contained a diagram of the Short & Harland aircraft factory, a plan of Sydenham aerodrome, details on the British Army, the names and addresses of British officers, a scheme for sabotaging the Belfast telephone system and details of RUC barracks in the city.

Absolutely there was a meeting of the minds. This is an absolute fact its undeniable.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Not to mention that Sinn Fein publications continuously attacked the Jewish community in Ireland throughout the 30s and 40s.



http://holocaustonline.org/ira-irish-republican-army/


You can check out the references on this Holocaust online site below the article.

As a Jewish person in Ireland, what is your view on Israel?

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Please just stop.

They guided the luftwaffe to help them bomb belfast.

900 people died.

The Luftwaffe needed no help from the IRA to bomb Belfast. They had maps, reconnaissance and Y Gerat to aid them with that job perfectly fine.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Belfast was crucial to allied forces as it was key in manufacturing weapons for the allies in the war effort.

I've studied the war for decades. My father was in the Royal Engineers during it and my mother was an evacuee from Guernsey. Both of them were furnishing me with reading material since I was a child. You don't ever have to feel the need to try and tell me anything to do with WWII.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

Absolutely there was a meeting of the minds. This is an absolute fact its undeniable.

No. There wasn't and the historical record stands against you.

When the Nazi's came to power in 1933, the IRA wrote about them in very disparaging terms, condemning it as a "Fascist state" and saying that the Nazi's had created a "collection of human chattels at the disposal of tyrants." They were highly critical of the likes of Dachau, which was being used to persecute German Socialists and felt that Hitler had coerced the German people wrongly.

During the Spanish Civil War, the IRA sent men to fight in the International Brigades on the side that fought against German and Fascist interests in that country.

But, during the Second World War, there was a change of approach regarding the IRA and the Germans, who ended up becoming strange bedfellows, primarily based on their mutual enemy, the British. But to characterise this relationship as something akin to lockstep agreement is a falsehood. This support of Germany was wholly contradictory to their previous stance not met with universal approval from their few thousand strong membership, leading to many adopting an "enemy of my enemy" stance and contenting themselves to receiving the free military aid the required to fight Britain.

Tony EH wrote: »

The Luftwaffe needed no help from the IRA to bomb Belfast. They had maps, reconnaissance and Y Gerat to aid them with that job perfectly fine.



I've studied the war for decades. My father was in the Royal Engineers during it and my mother was an evacuee from Guernsey. Both of them were furnishing me with reading material since I was a child. You don't ever have to feel the need to try and tell me anything to do with WWII.



No. There wasn't and the historical record stands against you.

When the Nazi's came to power in 1933, the IRA wrote about them in very disparaging terms, condemning it as a "Fascist state" and saying that the Nazi's had created a "collection of human chattels at the disposal of tyrants." They were highly critical of the likes of Dachau, which was being used to persecute German Socialists and felt that Hitler had coerced the German people wrongly.

During the Spanish Civil War, the IRA sent men to fight in the International Brigades on the side that fought against German and Fascist interests in that country.

But, during the Second World War, there was a change of approach regarding the IRA and the Germans, who ended up becoming strange bedfellows, primarily based on their mutual enemy, the British. But to characterise this relationship as something akin to lockstep agreement is a falsehood. This support of Germany was wholly contradictory to their previous stance not met with universal approval from their few thousand strong membership, leading to many adopting an "enemy of my enemy" stance and contenting themselves to receiving the free military aid the required to fight Britain.

You are in total denial. But to be honest I don't think this thread should be taken up by this debate.

But just know its a part of history and not ignored in the Jewish world.

Also the fact that SF are still anti Semitic is not ignored either. The fact that the SF mayor of Dublin went to an event to commemorate Hajj Amin al-Husseini is not ignored.

Peregrinus wrote: »

In truth, I don't the we can see the IRA as a monlithic institution, of one mind on all things. About the only thing that united the IRA was a commitment to militant Irish republicanism. On every other question, there were divergent opinions.

It's certainly true that, within the IRA, there were individuals who were sympathetic to, or attracted by, Nazism. But equally there were those whose political instincts would have been at the opposite end of the spectrum and, truth be told, there were probably the larger group. This didn't stop them being willing to co-operate with the Nazis against what they saw as a common enemy, but that doesn't make them Nazi sympathisers any more than a previous generation who dealt with Imperial Germany thereby became German imperialists.

There were also Irish nationalist Nazi sympathisers who left, or remained outside, the IRA, mostly because they found the IRA too left-wing; too tainted by communism. And there were also left-wing Republicans who kept their disance from the IRA becuase they didn't consider it sufficiently left-wing, or sufficiently internationalist.

There are certainly individuals within the republican movement about whom we can reasonably make judgments that they were, or were not, Nazi sympathisers. But making such judgments about the movement as a whole is much more difficult because, on all questions other than Irish republican militarism, the movement was pretty diverse, and indeed characterised by constant splits, power struggles and shifting internal alliances.

The plan for Germany to invade NI was developed at an IRA convention.

odyssey06 wrote: »

They can't even claim ignorance as a defence then. They knew exactly who they were getting into bed with.

No, they couldn't, which is why the situation regarding the IRA and the Germans during the war is a strange one indeed.

ILoveYourVibes wrote: »

The plan for Germany to invade NI was developed at an IRA convention.

Yes, I know. But that isn't because they were sympathetic to Germany or to Naziism; it's because they thought they saw an opportunity to bring about a united Ireland.

In fact this incident rather makes the point. Invading Ireland or uniting Ireland wasn't on the Nazi radar at all; it wasn't one of their objectives; they had no interest in it for its own sake. So in promoting a Nazi invasion of NI the IRA weren't trying to advance Naziism; they were trying to get the Naziis to advance Irish republicanism

In fact Nazi ideology was quite admiring of Britain. The British were "Aryans", after all, and had demonstrated sterling Aryan qualities by subjugating so much of the globe and so many lesser breeds. True, their moment in the sun was passing and the thousand-year Reich was about to eclipse them in fulfilment of its manifest destiny but, if the British could live with that and remain on friendly terms with Nazi Germany, Nazi Germany would have been quite happy to leave Britain and its empire in peace.

The question of war with Britain only arise because Britain wouldn't take that view, and in fact sought to obstruct the glorious destiny of the deutsche Volk. Even then, that didn't make the Nazis sympathetic to Irish nationalism; they would have been quite happy to see Ireland reincorporated into a (subjugated) United Kingdom. But it did make them interested in anything that could destabillise the United Kingdom, and that was what the IRA spotted. So they tried to pitch to the Germans the idea that invading NI, with the support of the IRA, would tend to destabilise the UK.

The IRA were (for the most part) no more interested in advancing Naziism than the Nazis were interested in advancing a united Ireland; they just thought that a project that would be of interest to them might also, for different reasons, be of interest to the Nazis, and therefore there was an opportunity for mutually beneficial co-operation.

Woke Hogan wrote: »

My wife is Jewish and so are my son and daughter.

The worst treatment my wife ever gets is from fellow Jewish people when they assume that she approves of the State of Israel's occupation in Palestine. She personally considers that assumption to be an act of antisemitism itself.



You should be ashamed of yourself.

There's plenty of posters on this site who's reflex is to shout Israel any time Jews or antisemitism is raised.

Almost like they think that the actions of Israel are some sort of excuse for antisemitism or for making generalisations about all Jewish people.

Mad_maxx wrote: »

Portobello is viewed as the Jewish quarter in Dublin

Used to be. At the end of the nineteenth century the focus of the Jewish community in Dulblin was in Portobello, along the South Circular Road, and up Clanbrassil Street a bit.

But it shifted over time. A couple of generations later the focus was definitely Rathgar/Terenure, and that's still where the principal synagogue and the Jewish schools are found. And, come to think of it, the Progressive synagogue as well. Whereas all the synagogues in and near Portobello have closed.

The community has grown quite a bit in the last fifteen or twenty years due to immigration. But many of the incoming Jews are young, single, relatively transient and not necessarily very plugged-in to Jewish community life and institutions in Ireland. So, though I don't know for sure, I suspect that as regards where they live they aren't concentrated in any particular area but are quite dispersed throughout the kind of areas where young, single, internationally-mobile adults are prone to rent accommodation.

Peregrinus wrote: »

In truth, I don't the we can see the IRA as a monlithic institution, of one mind on all things. About the only thing that united the IRA was a commitment to militant Irish republicanism. On every other question, there were divergent opinions.

It's certainly true that, within the IRA, there were individuals who were sympathetic to, or attracted by, Nazism. But equally there were those whose political instincts would have been at the opposite end of the spectrum and, truth be told, there were probably the larger group. This didn't stop them being willing to co-operate with the Nazis against what they saw as a common enemy, but that doesn't make them Nazi sympathisers any more than a previous generation who dealt with Imperial Germany thereby became German imperialists.

There were also Irish nationalist Nazi sympathisers who left, or remained outside, the IRA, mostly because they found the IRA too left-wing; too tainted by communism. And there were also left-wing Republicans who kept their disance from the IRA becuase they didn't consider it sufficiently left-wing, or sufficiently internationalist.

There are certainly individuals within the republican movement about whom we can reasonably make judgments that they were, or were not, Nazi sympathisers. But making such judgments about the movement as a whole is much more difficult because, on all questions other than Irish republican militarism, the movement was pretty diverse, and indeed characterised by constant splits, power struggles and shifting internal alliances.

By 1939, the IRA had dwindled down to about 2000 members of various persuasions, from a high of about 15,000 in in the early 30's. By 1941, that figure wasn't even 1000. Even so, there was a wide variety of political stances that spanned a very wide stretch. On one hand there were Communists and on the other ultra Nationalist Christian Conservatives.

It's true, the IRA leadership were more than willing to turn a blind eye to anything they didn't want to see, such a tendency was also carried through to the Provisional IRA in the 60's/70's and 80's as well. But as you say, it doesn't make them Nazi's or even Nazi collaborators in the truest sense of the word.

It doesn't make their unwillingness to acknowledge Nazi actions any less serious however.

But, if there was one thing that the IRA were aligned on it can be summed up in the sentence, "England’s difficulty was Ireland’s opportunity". A rather naive continuation of the Irish support for Germany that occurred during the First World War.