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Seller refusing electrician and plumber visit

24

Comments

  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 15,225 Mod ✭✭✭✭FutureGuy


    astrofool wrote: »
    3 weeks is nothing to wait when selling/buying a house, however, there's usually nothing stopping an engineer doing a survey during this time, the engineer will then usually advise if there is any documentation required from the vendors solicitor (e.g. cert of compliance, or issues around the plot), so it's odd that your solicitor was the block here, but maybe there is something special about the house that's not being called out here that made your solicitor add this condition (you also need to keep the selling estate agent aware of all these items, as they will be talking to the vendor directly and will make them nervous about delays).

    Do the vendor know you're worried about subsidence? Be up front, and tell them what the inspection is for, make sure the EA knows (they'll dread this as they'll have to put it back on the market with a question mark around subsidence).

    Is the house detached? If it is attached to the neighbour, and the neighbour has subsidence, you need to run away fast.

    It does sound like there's some naivety on your part, which can be understandable if it's a first purchase, be up front with issues, don't try and scrimp and save on what's required to buy the property (some beginners balk at the idea of getting a survey done before signing contracts in case they "lose" the money, this is a big red flag to any selling EA), the key is to keep everyone fully informed at all stages, and flag when and why decisions get made.

    My solicitor has the reputation of being incredibly through and has a history of finding issues that were not picked up on information provided by vendors side. Once he got that info from sellers solicitor, he needed to request a few extras from City Council which I preemptively arranged for collection from the Council.

    I have to say we have been very communicative on each step, contacting the EA 3 times per week on all updates, even if it was just to say there was no movement.

    I’m sorry if it’s any naivety on my part or I’m misreading, but why would anyone ever sign a contract before getting a structural engineer out on a visit, particularly to a second hand house? 4-5k is a lot of savings.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,322 ✭✭✭JustAThought


    Maybe the solicitor is the problem. Have you asked the neighbours if they have a contact for the owners. Might work quicker that way.


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 15,225 Mod ✭✭✭✭FutureGuy


    Maybe the solicitor is the problem. Have you asked the neighbours if they have a contact for the owners. Might work quicker that way.

    Our solicitor has all his stuff done a good while ago so he’s been a star. Just waiting the engineer report.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    FutureGuy wrote: »
    Our solicitor has all his stuff done a good while ago so he’s been a star. Just waiting the engineer report.


    You need to secure access or you will be paying for a report that will be full of caveats.

    I think you also need to reamphasise to the vendors that you are a serious buyer, but need peace of mind before you fully commit therefore require access. Worst case scenario for them is further delay if they are looking for a quick sale that is not based on problems that they may or may not know exist.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,593 ✭✭✭theteal


    We've had to walk away from a purchase (very late in the process) in the past purely because of vendors being. . . .numpties. I cost quite a bit after searches, reports and solicitor fees etc. but still the best decision we ever made.

    I've got to say I'm not sure I'd be wasting the effort on this one, OP. You're not going to spend a massive lump of money without getting your building quality reports done, who in their right mind would? The sellers are being downright unusual by not allowing access. This is basic stuff. What else will they be awkward about??? Too many red flags for me.



    I


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,074 ✭✭✭airy fairy


    If your in the process of getting a mortgage, will the banks even grant the transfer of funds until these queries are addressed?
    You say neighbours had subsidence, can you get house insurance in the area? Can you call to the neighbours, have a chat, get a feel for what went on with their subsidence?
    All sounds very odd tbh.
    If the vendors wants a quick sale, without checks being granted, you can be sure there's something up.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,569 ✭✭✭mugsymugsy


    Don't walk away,..RUN. Seriously OP unless they buck their ideas up and give you access then don't waste anymore time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,577 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Walk away OP.

    There's major red flags here and potentially very expensive solutions as others have said and you know yourself, but reading the tone of your posts the other pessure here is your own wish to close the sale.

    It's probably a nice house (on the surface) in a area you want to be in, the wife is probably happy too, and maybe mortgage approval wasn't that easy... But by the sound of it and the seller's attitude it's really not worth the risk. Subsidence is no joke (I've seen the effects of that where a house literally started coming apart in the middle as the front sunk into the ground), and it could be the tip of the iceberg if they're now refusing access.

    You've 2 options..

    - Ring them and tell them that you will not be rushed into a deal, especially not without you having the ability to investigate the issues that have already been flagged first and any other checks. If they aren't happy, they can sell to someone else

    - withdraw your offer anyway and look elsewhere. There'll be other houses

    Try and take your own desire to close out of it. I think you know it's sounding more and more like a bad deal.


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 15,225 Mod ✭✭✭✭FutureGuy


    STB. wrote: »
    You need to secure access or you will be paying for a report that will be full of caveats.

    I think you also need to reamphasise to the vendors that you are a serious buyer, but need peace of mind before you fully commit therefore require access. Worst case scenario for them is further delay if they are looking for a quick sale that is not based on problems that they may or may not know exist.

    Thanks but it is very hard to not be concerned about the fact that they are denying access after we told them of our concerns over the subsidence in the neighbours and possible damage to the draining.

    I am trying hard not to be paranoid but what other reason would they not allow access in the crucial days before the sale.

    I mean have the drains CCTV, plumber and electrican lined up. They know this. We could technically get it done before Wednesday. Why else would they not be allowing access?


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 15,225 Mod ✭✭✭✭FutureGuy


    airy fairy wrote: »
    If your in the process of getting a mortgage, will the banks even grant the transfer of funds until these queries are addressed?
    You say neighbours had subsidence, can you get house insurance in the area? Can you call to the neighbours, have a chat, get a feel for what went on with their subsidence?
    All sounds very odd tbh.
    If the vendors wants a quick sale, without checks being granted, you can be sure there's something up.

    I may talk to the neighbours.


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  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 15,225 Mod ✭✭✭✭FutureGuy


    _Kaiser_ wrote: »
    Walk away OP.

    There's major red flags here and potentially very expensive solutions as others have said and you know yourself, but reading the tone of your posts the other pessure here is your own wish to close the sale.

    It's probably a nice house (on the surface) in a area you want to be in, the wife is probably happy too, and maybe mortgage approval wasn't that easy... But by the sound of it and the seller's attitude it's really not worth the risk. Subsidence is no joke (I've seen the effects of that where a house literally started coming apart in the middle as the front sunk into the ground), and it could be the tip of the iceberg if they're now refusing access.

    You've 2 options..

    - Ring them and tell them that you will not be rushed into a deal, especially not without you having the ability to investigate the issues that have already been flagged first and any other checks. If they aren't happy, they can sell to someone else

    - withdraw your offer anyway and look elsewhere. There'll be other houses

    Try and take your own desire to close out of it. I think you know it's sounding more and more like a bad deal.

    Good advice, but as I just mentioned to the other poster, even if they come back Monday to say they have changed their mind and will allow access, there are huge red flags in my mind regarding the pressure we are being put under.


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,132 ✭✭✭✭TheValeyard


    FutureGuy wrote: »
    I may talk to the neighbours.

    This could actually solve a lot of issues.

    Fcuk Putin. Glory to Ukraine!



  • Registered Users Posts: 58 ✭✭Hollybeg


    FutureGuy wrote: »
    Hi all, just looking for some advice.

    Sale agreed on a house. 3 bed semi d in a city centre. Their solicitor took 3 weeks for papers to get over to our solicitor and I feel that we have been pressured to make up that lost time since.

    This solicitor delay delayed our engineer who was going on hols. We eventually buckled to pressure and got a second engineer to do the survey and speed things up. They threatened to pull out so we got in a different engineer.

    We had the engineer out last Thursday week and we are awaiting the survey results, expected today. We asked for access for access for a plumber last week too but they cancelled on the day before. This was due the day before the engineer.

    Now we are being told they will not allow access to a plumber or any other visits and expect us to sign contracts on Wednesday. The engineer said in passing he cannot access the drains out the back but they need to be checked via cctv as there is clear subsidence on a neighbours extension which might have damaged the drains below (drains flow under the sellers house and into that neighbours).

    Thoughts?

    Run a mile. Buyer beware and all that. Obviously the current owner is well aware of the issues. With the property market on the up, I'm hearing about lots of shisters out there being economical with the truth. Someone I know went sale agreed on a property recently, was told there was no issues, and only for the knowledge of the buyer could have walked themselves into a planning issue that would have been very expensive to resolve.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,464 ✭✭✭Ultimate Seduction


    Pod123 wrote: »
    Sold and bought houses over the years.
    Best thing we ever did was to send in our own plumber electrician and carpenter.
    We also used an engineer purely to make sure everything was built to planning permission eg entrance septic tank etc. But the trades people saved us money.

    Why would you send in a carpenter?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,244 ✭✭✭Juwwi


    Would you buy a second had car off the vendors ?, l definitely wouldn't after reading your story so far .

    It would be crazy to go ahead imo ,if something major shows up a few years down the line you'll ever forgive yourself .


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭Murt10


    House prices are falling at the moment.

    Do yourself a favour and start looking at other houses in the area. Chances are that you'll get a better house now for less money. Plus, other houses will have come on the market since you started looking.

    Also, if there was a house that you fancied last time round that was out of your price range, that's still on the market, then maybe the sellers are prepared to accept a lower offer. If it hasn't sold already then they are looking for too much.

    Best advice I ever got when buying a house was "if you're not embarrassed by the size of your 1st offer, then you're offering too much".
    You can always increase a lowball offer. The 1st offer is just an indication of interest and nobody ever accepts the first offer

    If the seller doesn't sell very quickly, the chances are that they won't complete until next year. Ask the EA you are dealing with if he has any other similar properties, as you are considering pulling out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,372 ✭✭✭sjb25


    FutureGuy wrote: »
    . Why else would they not be allowing access?

    This you have said it yourself big red flags I think I'd of just pulled out already but if I really liked the house I may try one more time tell them I've all my people booked to inspect I need access or its no deal right now make your choice if the say no then fair enough best of luck to you would be my response


  • Registered Users Posts: 782 ✭✭✭Dolbhad


    Murt10 wrote: »



    Best advice I ever got when buying a house was "if you're not embarrassed by the size of your 1st offer, then you're offering too much".
    You can always increase a lowball offer. The 1st offer is just an indication of interest and nobody ever accepts the first offer

    That’s great advice. I was bidding on a house recently and first bid that went it was at asking and I was going why did they do that!! The sellers thought the house is worth way more than they thought and suddenly only wanted bids of 5k or more. We walked away. I wanted to get the first bid and go 20k under asking to set the tone, and let it raise in it’s own time to around asking. But we were the second viewing so couldn’t get the first bid in. We had a debate was 20k under very cheeky but I honestly didn’t think so as I thought asking price was actually the right price for the house.

    House is still on the market at moment.


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 15,225 Mod ✭✭✭✭FutureGuy


    Juwwi wrote: »
    Would you buy a second had car off the vendors ?, l definitely wouldn't after reading your story so far .

    It would be crazy to go ahead imo ,if something major shows up a few years down the line you'll ever forgive yourself .

    Right now, I wouldn’t buy an Xbox because I’m not allowed check it properly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    FutureGuy wrote: »
    the only thing it will say is that it needs to be inspected - and we are not allowed send anyone else. :rolleyes:
    Ask one more time. When they say no, demand that they return the deposit.

    If that doesn't change their tune, you'll know that it's time to walk away.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,180 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    FutureGuy wrote: »
    It took 3 weeks to get their papers to our solicitors. Because of this we had to effectively start our engineer search from scratch - that took a week to complete (there were cheaper quicker engineers but it’s the most important piece to get right so had to get the best we could) and about 7 days to get him on site (busy time of year).

    We are bending over backwards. Their solicitor goes of on holidays and we eventually have to change the engineer as a result.

    We book the plumber for last week, they cancel last minute and now won’t give access to the plumber, drains and electrician.

    We get the engineer out last Thursday and they say they want contacts signed the following week (!?!). We told them there wasn’t a hope because that would give 0 days to read, complete recommended checks and then sign contracts.

    We have been open and communicative at every step. We’d have the engineer and subsequent visits done weeks ago had it not been for the delay.

    Three weeks isn’t a long time when it comes to house contracts.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,178 ✭✭✭carltonleon


    FutureGuy wrote: »
    I have currently no proof that they are hiding anything. They may just be pressuring us. The transaction hasn't been the smoothest given the delay from their solicitor and then us having to scramble to get a new engineer, so they are probably getting pressure from their buyer on the house they are trying to buy.

    But I cannot understand how denying us access for our electrician/plumber/drains cctv is going to help do anything but end the sale entirely.

    I'm so frustrated because it's completely ****ing unreasonable on their behalf. We've been running around in circles getting a new engineer and when we do get him in, saying they want contracts signed this time the next week (5 working days). I mean what planet do you live on when you think that soneone will sign contracts 5 working days from an engineer visit? And then as we are due to get the report, deny us access to the house?

    Sure that makes no sense!!! If they want things to be done quickly (applying pressure) then the simple thing is to let your tradesmen in which will in turn speed up the process as you would be happier and more content and thus more likely to sign the contracts if the tradesmen say all is ok. What they are in fact doing is counterproductive and is actually delaying the process as you now have serious doubts. What possible good reason can they have to deny access to tradesmen other than to possibly hide a known issue. If it was me and I did not get access to all I wanted then I would walk away.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,163 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    I’m not saying the vendors are hiding or not hiding anything here but it would be extremely rare to allow plumbers and electricians into a Propety you are buying.

    The norm would be your Surveyor for the visual pre purchase survey. Anything beyond that is out of the norm.


  • Posts: 8,856 ✭✭✭ Jayden Jolly Thunderstorm


    kceire wrote: »
    I’m not saying the vendors are hiding or not hiding anything here but it would be extremely rare to allow plumbers and electricians into a Propety you are buying.

    The norm would be your Surveyor for the visual pre purchase survey. Anything beyond that is out of the norm.

    I was selling a house a few years ago- the purchasers wanted to get their tradesmen in, in advance of purchase, so they could plan out home improvements ASAP- i.e measure up, snag list what needed doing etc - the house was in need of some obvious modernisation - the boiler for example- that was all obvious -

    while at the time we felt there was a risk of the purchasers coming back and saying x is wrong or y isn't right, I felt that the house itself obviously needed updating and since they wanted that work done asap after purchase, it made sense for them to plan the work before they moved in. So we organised a day where all could visit and do what they wanted to do.

    All worked out fine and the purchasers were most grateful.

    I think if you feel the purchasers are genuine, there's no harm in doing this; it keeps them on side also.

    In this particular case, should the engineer not assessed the drains, used CCTV etc etc? A plumber will only be able to tell you that a drain is collapsed- it would require an engineer to tell you the implications of that.


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 15,225 Mod ✭✭✭✭FutureGuy


    I was selling a house a few years ago- the purchasers wanted to get their tradesmen in, in advance of purchase, so they could plan out home improvements ASAP- i.e measure up, snag list what needed doing etc - the house was in need of some obvious modernisation - the boiler for example- that was all obvious -

    while at the time we felt there was a risk of the purchasers coming back and saying x is wrong or y isn't right, I felt that the house itself obviously needed updating and since they wanted that work done asap after purchase, it made sense for them to plan the work before they moved in. So we organised a day where all could visit and do what they wanted to do.

    All worked out fine and the purchasers were most grateful.

    I think if you feel the purchasers are genuine, there's no harm in doing this; it keeps them on side also.

    In this particular case, should the engineer not assessed the drains, used CCTV etc etc? A plumber will only be able to tell you that a drain is collapsed- it would require an engineer to tell you the implications of that.

    The engineer could not access the manhole out the back. They have raised the level of part of the back by half a meter. There is a cover at new garden level which opens and exposes the original manhole. That has been essentially wedged shut by the the resining of the garden. He said you’d nearly need to smash the cover to access it. He recommended a specially with CCTV to check it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,523 ✭✭✭Sonny noggs


    Not sure why you started the thread, OP. You know this is a major red flag but you don’t seem to be willing to accept it and move on.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,101 ✭✭✭✭Danzy


    They are trying to pull one over you.


  • Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 15,225 Mod ✭✭✭✭FutureGuy


    Not sure why you started the thread, OP. You know this is a major red flag but you don’t seem to be willing to accept it and move on.

    I started to get others opinions. It’s easy to overlook signs or look to read too much into something.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,898 ✭✭✭KOR101


    FutureGuy wrote: »
    I started to get others opinions. It’s easy to overlook signs or look to read too much into something.
    Is it not normal for engineers to point out the limitations of their visual inspection? Has your engineer actually described this to you as something really important. Any engineer I've used has always pointed out what they couldn't determine to be alright but I could tell it was boilerplate arse covering.

    If your solicitor is also good at finding potential issues, then it may be just a case of you sending the wrong signals to the buyer.

    Buying a house is a big deal and mentally stressful. It's normal to be a bit paranoid. At the end of the day you have to make a judgement call on which issues really matter.

    I once lost out on a good property because I queried the land registry documents for the property. What was described as 5 acres turned out to be 3.5 acres. I was eventually proven to be correct but I still lost out on the purchase.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,283 ✭✭✭Quandary


    FutureGuy wrote: »
    I started to get others opinions. It’s easy to overlook signs or look to read too much into something.

    We were sale agreed for 9 months before finally pulling out because the seller was evasive and awkward at almost every turn. We absolutely loved the house and were devastated to have to walk away but in hindsight we should have walked much sooner. The straw(s) that broke the camels back for us was the seller refusing to provide essential planning related documentation and there were question marks over a right of way issue which the seller also refused to clarify.

    It turned out to be a great decision because we ended up in a house we love just as much!

    If I was you I would start actively viewing other properties, and let the seller know ye will be withdrawing from the sale unless he is willing to facilitate yer requests.

    Don't let your heart make a decision you know you should be making with your head.

    Best of luck :)


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