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How old is too old to return to study GAMSAT and Grad Med ?

2

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 514 ✭✭✭thomasdylan


    [PHP][/PHP]
    letsdothis wrote: »
    I think some of the comments above from current doctors are slightly condescending towards GEMS / potential GEMS, whether they mean to be or not. Do you think intelligent people with existing good quality degrees just jump into medicine and the related debt, personal and family sacrifice without full consideration of what that involves, phlebotomy and all? As others have said, there are plenty of other professions where you are required to work long hours, often doing monotonous or menial tasks too - medicine doesn't have exclusivity on that. What medicine probably does have almost exclusivity on is an attitude of superiority and expectation because you probably excelled in your leaving cert and came from a wealthy family. I could have made my money by now with my primary degree if I was that way inclined. However, like many other students and doctors I know, we have chosen an incredibly privileged career path because of a sense of public service rather a desire to chase cash. I'll come back in a year's time to this forum to post my experience as an intern to see if this attitude changes but I'm certain it won't.

    While I fully appreciate the frustrations of some doctors (including those above), I think the voice of the disgruntled few is most prominent online and doesn't really reflect my own experience of colleagues, who by in large say that they love their jobs. I think this is important for those considering GEM to hear because they'll already have considered all the negatives by now.


    I think the most condescending thing that has been said in this thread has been you telling someone they should have done more research as they clearly weren't suited to medicine.

    Medicine is a tough and rewarding career. But I think the GEM loan is huge considering payscales. I cant imagine it can be paid back in less than 8-10 years. Having said that you will never be unemployed.


  • Registered Users Posts: 230 ✭✭letsdothis


    [PHP][/PHP]


    I think the most condescending thing that has been said in this thread has been you telling someone they should have done more research as they clearly weren't suited to medicine.

    Do you think so? You're clearly blinkered to any posts that don't reinforce your own views, then. We've been told in numerous posts in numerous treads by brendanwalsh how awful medicine is in Ireland and how naive we all are for rushing into it; my comment was in response to that.

    In relation to the debt, would you rather pay 700 a month for 10 years to do something you love, or be miserable for the rest of your life in an unsatisfactory job, regretting never going for medicine? Because these are the choices that GEM students have made before taking it on.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 514 ✭✭✭thomasdylan


    letsdothis wrote: »
    Do you think so? You're clearly blinkered to any posts that don't reinforce your own views, then. We've been told in numerous posts in numerous treads by brendanwalsh how awful medicine is in Ireland and how naive we all are for rushing into it; my comment was in response to that.

    In relation to the debt, would you rather pay 700 a month for 10 years to do something you love, or be miserable for the rest of your life in an unsatisfactory job, regretting never going for medicine? Because these are the choices that GEM students have made before taking it on.


    I don't think I'm blinkered at all. It shouldn't be an echo chamber here.

    You said someone was unsuited to do their job. That's a hugely insulting thing to say to anyone.

    I don't think GEM is a particularly bad choice for anyone. You'll never be unemployed. What I think it's important to say is that medicine can require big sacrifices. It's easier to make those sacrifices when you don't have children or a mortgage and are tied yo one place. The older you are the more difficult those things become. Pretty much all yhe schemes will send you round a province.


  • Registered Users Posts: 31 Pierre_Robin


    To answer the original question: it depends.

    If you want to be a plastic surgeon, it's earlier, if you want to be a GP, it's later.

    I've worked for bosses who came back to do medicine at a later age, or indeed did a lot of training in one are and then moved specialty. They are outliers though, and the majority of your colleagues will be doing medicine as their first job from the age of 24/25.

    I'd advise talking to people currently working in Ireland. I'm a GEM working at the SpR level. I've made my feelings about working in Ireland very clear in previous threads so won't go into it in as much detail here. I can only speak from experience, but I love my job. I have plenty of friends who love their jobs. Similarly, I know far too many doctors, both scheme and off-scheme who are unhappy. As others have pointed out, do your research before you commit to anything.

    Just to add another data point. My take home with OT (all of it paid - and in a peripheral :pac::pac::pac:) is approx 3.6 - 3.8k a month depending on how many Saturdays I've worked.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA



    Just to add another data point. My take home with OT (all of it paid - and in a peripheral :pac::pac::pac:) is approx 3.6 - 3.8k a month depending on how many Saturdays I've worked.

    That's significantly better than Joe Soap. And with the possibility of significant further career advancement. Most people wont come near your current basic salary, even at the end of their careers.

    As for a €100k loan, as a Cost Benefit Analysis, it's a very good investment.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    That's significantly better than Joe Soap. And with the possibility of significant further career advancement. Most people wont come near your current basic salary, even at the end of their careers.

    As for a €100k loan, as a Cost Benefit Analysis, it's a very good investment.

    I earn 3k net a month as a teacher so I’m surprised that this is the wage I would expect a doctor would have been on more (even at beginning of their career). It would be difficult to pay a mortgage and a loan for GEM on that to be fair. Thank you for the information it’s great to see reality of being a doctor starting out in Ireland.

    Edit: sorry this is supposed to be in reply to Pierre_Robin 😊


  • Registered Users Posts: 988 ✭✭✭brendanwalsh


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    That's significantly better than Joe Soap. And with the possibility of significant further career advancement. Most people wont come near your current basic salary, even at the end of their careers.

    As for a €100k loan, as a Cost Benefit Analysis, it's a very good investment.
    Did you do this cost benefit analysis in your head ?

    100k loan is a very bad investment.
    It will be the guts of 130 to 150k in total depending on how far out you stretch the repayments. This doesn't account for the opportunity cost of working for the four years in college and the opportunity cost of earning a lower salary for your first few years as a nchd than you would have earned if in a senior position in your old job. Obviously if you worked in spar you won't have been on much but if you were an actuary or pharmacist you could expect 6 figures.

    Let's not start on the time value of money or the inflation rate when paying back your money. Hse salaries don't rise in concordance with same.

    There are easier ways of earning 6 or 7 hundred quid a week.

    As example above the teacher with 4.5 months holidays per year on the same wage as a spr working 90 hours a week.


  • Registered Users Posts: 31 Pierre_Robin


    As example above the teacher with 4.5 months holidays per year on the same wage as a spr working 90 hours a week.

    I don't work 90 hours a week. I used to, but not anymore. I'm in a busy specialty as well. If I did, my estimate of my take home is closer to 4.5k.

    Pension is also quite good, and guaranteed as well. I'm not in finance, but I think it's called a defined benefit pension and is not the norm.

    We should be paid more, agreed. I'm not skint though, and haven't done a catheter in aaaaaaaaages!


  • Registered Users Posts: 31 Pierre_Robin


    I earn 3k net a month as a teacher so I’m surprised that this is the wage I would expect a doctor would have been on more (even at beginning of their career). It would be difficult to pay a mortgage and a loan for GEM on that to be fair. Thank you for the information it’s great to see reality of being a doctor starting out in Ireland.

    Edit: sorry this is supposed to be in reply to Pierre_Robin 😊

    Not that difficult to pay to be honest, maybe I don't have an otherwise expensive life?

    I'm surprised at 3k a month as a teacher, I imagine you're relatively senior? From my reading of the paper I thought teachers earned feck all.

    Doctors aren't as well paid as the rte news makes out, not nchds at least. Consultants with private practice are another story.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Not that difficult to pay to be honest, maybe I don't have an otherwise expensive life?

    I'm surprised at 3k a month as a teacher, I imagine you're relatively senior? From my reading of the paper I thought teachers earned feck all.

    Doctors aren't as well paid as the rte news makes out, not nchds at least. Consultants with private practice are another story.

    8 years teaching and I do after school club 2 evenings and grinds 2 evenings. I would work say 9-3 every day and then an extra 2 hours two evenings (homework club) and 1 hour (for the grinds) 2 evenings. I do one week summer camp also and July Provision. I wouldn’t say it’s great money but definitely a good income that’s why I was surprised at a doctors take home feel lucky now. Without the extras (see above for all the nixers which add up it would be a lot lower). A year or two ago I was struggling so added in all them bits of extra work and made a good improvement in my take home. We have a mortgage on a big enough house and are relatively frugal and I still would find it next to impossible if I had a big loan to pay - I considered medicine myself this is why this thread is of particular interest to me. It’s not all about the money though and it’s not 100% ruled out in my mind yet as I see medicine as a really worthwhile intellectually demanding job.

    Edit: younger teachers are on feck all and I will strike with them when the time comes - don’t think this is the norm I just came out at a better time than them.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 31 Pierre_Robin


    8 years teaching and I do after school club 2 evenings and grinds 2 evenings. I would work say 9-3 every day and then an extra 2 hours two evenings (homework club) and 1 hour (for the grinds) 2 evenings. I do one week summer camp also and July Provision. I wouldn’t say it’s great money but definitely a good income that’s why I was surprised at a doctors take home feel lucky now. Without the extras (see above for all the nixers which add up it would be a lot lower). A year or two ago I was struggling so added in all them bits of extra work and made a good improvement in my take home. We have a mortgage on a big enough house and are relatively frugal and I still would find it next to impossible if I had a big loan to pay - I considered medicine myself this is why this thread is of particular interest to me. It’s not all about the money though and it’s not 100% ruled out in my mind yet as I see medicine as a really worthwhile intellectually demanding job.

    Edit: younger teachers are on feck all and I will strike with them when the time comes - don’t think this is the norm I just came out at a better time than them.

    Ah that makes sense. Especially with the nixers. Fair play for doing the extra work!

    Medicine isn't that intellectually demanding, it's mostly rote learning and pattern recognition.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Ah that makes sense. Especially with the nixers. Fair play for doing the extra work!

    Medicine isn't that intellectually demanding, it's mostly rote learning and pattern recognition.

    Thanks it’s made me enjoy my career a lot more as I have a much more comfortable lifestyle. Very tough few years at the beginning and I feel really bad for our younger colleagues. It’s hard to enjoy a career when you don’t feel you are making a good living from it. I always (assumed I suppose!) that medicine would be intellectually demanding that’s what had me thinking it would be a lovely career.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,221 ✭✭✭✭ Laylah Happy Skinhead


    Never OP, age is but a number, don't let that restrict you.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 6,750 ✭✭✭Avatar MIA


    Ah that makes sense. Especially with the nixers. Fair play for doing the extra work!

    Medicine isn't that intellectually demanding, it's mostly rote learning and pattern recognition.

    Is the profession going to morph into Dr Google ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 31 Pierre_Robin


    Avatar MIA wrote: »
    Is the profession going to morph into Dr Google ?

    I'm not quite sure what you mean.

    There's some exciting stuff being done with machine learning and diagnostic radiology, though it's a while off replacing radiologists.

    I probably simplified what I meant by pattern recognition. A lot of medicine is having seen a similar case previously, or perhaps more correctly, having seen tons of one type of presentation and so recognising the subtle difference in a new case. Or at least I've found that.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2 Katiecoffey555


    I am selling Gold Standard GAMSAT books if you are interested in taking it. My dad did GRADMED when he was 37 and never looked back. Go for it


  • Registered Users Posts: 48 Sgro


    I am selling Gold Standard GAMSAT books if you are interested in taking it. My dad did GRADMED when he was 37 and never looked back. Go for it

    37 fairplay!

    I'm currently in the midst of studying and grappling with doubting myself - could you tell us a bit more about your Dad? What was his career before, is he still working as a Doctor now?
    Could use a good motivational story tbh :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭APower79


    che oh wrote: »
    If you want to do it then do it- I started GEMS last September aged 35 with a 2 year old and a 6 month old- I have no science background and I have no money- But I’m there and I love it-If you think you’ll regret not doing it then give it a go and sure if it doesn’t work out that’s fine too

    Well done you! I’m 39 with young kids and would really love to do it. Am I crazy though?! I think those around me would say I am. But I think I will regret it if I don’t try


  • Registered Users Posts: 415 ✭✭milhous


    APower79 wrote: »
    Well done you! I’m 39 with young kids and would really love to do it. Am I crazy though?! I think those around me would say I am. But I think I will regret it if I don’t try

    Early thirties, science degree. Thought about going back, but looked at the costs and decided against it. I'm not inherently a good person who just wants to help people, whilst it would be a perk I'd really be in it for the money. Going without my salary for 4 years, plus the 15k a year fees and living expenses..

    I would recoup it eventually (even though Drs are not outreagously well paid at a lot of levels), however by intern year I'd be midthirties, another 10years of nchd posts that are manic.. I'd miss a large part of my kids early years and end up working myself to ****.. wish I had the sense to do it 10years ago though


  • Registered Users Posts: 988 ✭✭✭brendanwalsh


    milhous wrote: »
    Early thirties, science degree. Thought about going back, but looked at the costs and decided against it. I'm not inherently a good person who just wants to help people, whilst it would be a perk I'd really be in it for the money. Going without my salary for 4 years, plus the 15k a year fees and living expenses..

    I would recoup it eventually (even though Drs are not outreagously well paid at a lot of levels), however by intern year I'd be midthirties, another 10years of nchd posts that are manic.. I'd miss a large part of my kids early years and end up working myself to ****.. wish I had the sense to do it 10years ago though

    Honestly, you made the right choice. Medicine is just a job, with a sh1t salary and horrible work life balance. You lose the best years of your life working for a company that knifes you in the back at every chance they can. Medicine in this country is dead. It's emigration or leave clinical medicine for most people. Our system is propped up by doctors from 3rd world countries but even they are starting to fight back.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 415 ✭✭milhous


    Honestly, you made the right choice. Medicine is just a job, with a sh1t salary and horrible work life balance. You lose the best years of your life working for a company that knifes you in the back at every chance they can. Medicine in this country is dead. It's emigration or leave clinical medicine for most people. Our system is propped up by doctors from 3rd world countries but even they are starting to fight back.

    In fairness my wife was smarter and went straight to medicine from school, training was tough (hours/jobs/ and as you mentioned all the stuff that docs generally ought not to be doing, but it never seemed to bother her, just another job to be done whilst you haven't slept in two days ) but pretty amazing.
    Gradmed at my age with my commitments and current salary is a no go. Medicine in ireland still has great opportunities and if one can travel even better. If I could go back in time, yes. Now.. no.


  • Registered Users Posts: 346 ✭✭Celestial12


    APower79 wrote: »
    Well done you! I’m 39 with young kids and would really love to do it. Am I crazy though?! I think those around me would say I am. But I think I will regret it if I don’t try

    No you're not crazy to try.

    I don't think there's a right answer to this question, and it varies from person to person. What matters is whether or not you think you're too old, because it's you who's going to be putting in the work and making the sacrifices. If you got into GEM this year, you'd have your degree and intern year finished by the age of 45. You'd then have 20+ years working as a doctor. That may not be as long as other people, but there's still plenty of time for you to be a doctor.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭TallGlass


    Interesting thread. Few questions too.

    I have considered it however. On paper I am an idiot. LC is a disaster area, 230/240 points, no degree or college. However in IT work and on decent pay.

    But like someone said, I would rather a job with more satisfaction and helping people so to speak.

    However, fitting in an entire LC repeat to aim for 600 odd points is a mental challenge, I would pick up on the Biology, Chem, Phys and Maths in about a very and more than likely come in with good results at HL. However, English, Irish and another language is just unworkable (maybe not English).

    Are there other options for me to consider here?

    Also, just out of interest, if you went the LC route, does the state 'pay' for your training and you pay the college fees or are you saddled up to 100k debt also?

    I'm 28 now, so if I wrapped this up in 5 years or made headway on it and was settled in a role at 35 I could make progress and have a nice enjoyable career until my 70's that I would (hopefully)enjoy.

    My problem at present is my paperwork, is LC route the only option here without a degree?

    I wonder sometimes, is it a case of the grass is always greener on the other-side? I spent a month in hospital previously (with a catheter from a few places!), so I seen how hard everyone works. It's been on my mind a few years now and I have tried LC work, but get overwhelmed with the amount of content to cover :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 39 Recap


    TallGlass wrote: »
    Interesting thread. Few questions too.

    I have considered it however. On paper I am an idiot. LC is a disaster area, 230/240 points, no degree or college. However in IT work and on decent pay.

    But like someone said, I would rather a job with more satisfaction and helping people so to speak.

    However, fitting in an entire LC repeat to aim for 600 odd points is a mental challenge, I would pick up on the Biology, Chem, Phys and Maths in about a very and more than likely come in with good results at HL. However, English, Irish and another language is just unworkable (maybe not English).

    Are there other options for me to consider here?

    Also, just out of interest, if you went the LC route, does the state 'pay' for your training and you pay the college fees or are you saddled up to 100k debt also?

    I'm 28 now, so if I wrapped this up in 5 years or made headway on it and was settled in a role at 35 I could make progress and have a nice enjoyable career until my 70's that I would (hopefully)enjoy.

    My problem at present is my paperwork, is LC route the only option here without a degree?

    I wonder sometimes, is it a case of the grass is always greener on the other-side? I spent a month in hospital previously (with a catheter from a few places!), so I seen how hard everyone works. It's been on my mind a few years now and I have tried LC work, but get overwhelmed with the amount of content to cover :(

    28 is very young indeed. Please don't listen to people telling you that you're too old or that life will be tougher than if you were younger. Medicine is tough and the sacrifices you make are unlike any you make in the majority of other careers. You will work A LOT and medical school requires a lot of focus and discipline. You can have a life outside of academics but in order to do well, you need to work a lot.

    The life of a doctor isn't easy either: the healthcare systems across Europe are ridden with bureaucracy and underfunding and as a result you'll be doing more than you should be for little financial reward. But you know what? If despite all this, you still know that working in medicine is for you, then do it. I personally know the sacrifices I'm making and I don't regret it one minute. Medicine has been the most satisfying thing I have done to date. I work hard and challenge myself but the personal rewards outweigh anything I ever felt in my last career.


  • Registered Users Posts: 39 Recap


    APower79 wrote: »
    Well done you! I’m 39 with young kids and would really love to do it. Am I crazy though?! I think those around me would say I am. But I think I will regret it if I don’t try

    No, it's not crazy. I know a girl who went into medicine (6-year course) at 39 and is now excelling. She's happier than she ever was and wouldn't change it for anything. She left a VERY well paying job to do medicine as well. Just be sure you know what medicine entails and what working for a national health service means in terms of salary, pressure, etc...


  • Registered Users Posts: 988 ✭✭✭brendanwalsh


    Recap wrote: »
    No, it's not crazy. I know a girl who went into medicine (6-year course) at 39 and is now excelling. She's happier than she ever was and wouldn't change it for anything. She left a VERY well paying job to do medicine as well. Just be sure you know what medicine entails and what working for a national health service means in terms of salary, pressure, etc...

    Is it fair to get the government to fund you to train until you are 50 and then only provide 15 to 17 years of benefit back to the country before retiring?
    I'd argue the states coffers would get more value training a person in their 20s.


  • Registered Users Posts: 39 Recap


    Is it fair to get the government to fund you to train until you are 50 and then only provide 15 to 17 years of benefit back to the country before retiring?

    One could use the very same logic and suggest that it's not fair to train a doctor until he or she is 30 and then for said doctor to move to Australia.
    I'd argue the states coffers would get more value training a person in their 20s.

    Again, the value is lost if the person leaves Ireland (which multiple reports are suggesting is the case). Fixing a shortage is to find multiple options, including incentivising older doctors who have more of a reason to stick around (mortgage, spouse, etc...)

    Health policy should not be based on logic or what we 'feel' makes the most sense. Statistics and reason are far better tools.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭TallGlass


    Has anyone any ideas on pathways into medicine? Bad LC, No degree and in different field (IT). Is it stricly LC only?


  • Registered Users Posts: 415 ✭✭milhous


    TallGlass wrote: »
    Has anyone any ideas on pathways into medicine? Bad LC, No degree and in different field (IT). Is it stricly LC only?

    Need LC and hpat or level 8 degree and gamsat


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,935 ✭✭✭TallGlass


    milhous wrote: »
    Need LC and hpat or level 8 degree and gamsat

    Is it any level 8 degree? Is there any difference doing one route over the other. The LC stuff, I am just really struggling with Irish for starters, haven't even looked at another EU language, English is a mountain too but achievable.


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