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Why we can't have nice things anymore

  • 29-05-2019 8:24am
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭


    Festivals, marts, creches, play centres, outdoor parks, and other small businesses around the country are closing down due to exaggerated insurance claims and corresponding insurance costs.

    One of the biggest adventure playgrounds in the country had to remove two trampolines from its grounds after its insurance was hiked by €25,000 ........ just for the two trampolines alone. And that's after no claims on those trampolines in the last 15 years. 61 play centres have been threatened with closure this year alone. (From the Irish Independent piece this morning: They're going to close down the country).

    Looking at the problem, we have judges awarding ludicrous, non-justifiable awards to claimants; many of whom are serial claimants.
    We have an inept Government minister Michael D'Arcy, who for the last 2 years have repeatedly told us ad nauseum on various television programs that he is making great progress in targeting insurance costs.
    We have an obvious insurance cartel in this country, who are exacerbating the problem so much that the EU had to send in a team to investigate their practices. Unfortunately, the Insurance cartel know that this formal antitrust investigation will take years to complete, and will gleefully money grab from us while they still allowed to do so.

    And then we have the fraudsters, which without a shadow of a doubt, make up the vast majority of claimants in this country.
    Case in point (From the examiner this morning): A study has found 100% of Irish whiplash patients attending a spine specialist pursued lawsuits — but the visits almost always stopped once the legal action was settled. Only 3% continued with follow-up treatment when litigation ended. That fact alone speaks volumes.

    Since the government is like a deer in the headlights tackling this issue and just watching businesses closing down (and people losing jobs) around the country due to insurance costs, and since Judges will not change their "ways" of awarding payouts that are multiples greater than other parts of Europe, let's have a referendum to drive down these compensation pay-outs.
    It is obvious that the current government and solicitor firms do not want this problem solved, so let the people decide .............. in a referendum.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭TuringBot47


    Kivaro wrote: »
    Case in point (From the examiner this morning): A study has found 100% of Irish whiplash patients attending a spine specialist pursued lawsuits — but the visits almost always stopped once the legal action was settled. Only 3% continued with follow-up treatment when litigation ended. That fact alone speaks volumes.

    Not volumes... a "spine specialist" might've been needed for credibility in court, but a normal physio might be enough to treat them on a longer term basis.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 12,592 Mod ✭✭✭✭riffmongous


    But what to actually do... The problem being the center and middle classes don't usually do anything except complain and sneer at any actual attempts to act

    Set up a petition there, and I'll sign it and share it


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,042 ✭✭✭Wabbit Ears


    Our local Sonairte closed its doors to the public because of this. Randomers suing because they had minor injuries on a woodland trail. I think its re-opened in a limited capacity since then but the truth of it all is some random judge sitting in his ivory tower decided that he should ruin it for everyone. I don't hate on the claimants, sure if the Judges are just handing out huge sums of cash on a whim why wouldn't they?

    https://www.independent.ie/regionals/droghedaindependent/news/huge-insurance-costs-leads-to-sonairte-closure-36076095.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 17,568 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Hopefully swingapalooza causes enough chaos for them that they start to properly tackles the issue


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    Kivaro wrote: »
    And then we have the fraudsters, which without a shadow of a doubt, make up the vast majority of claimants in this country.
    .

    Not a chance - the absolute vast majority of insurance claims are legit.

    Not to mention the enormous number of valid claims which aren't pursued because it just wouldn't be worth the hassle (I personally have had 2 over the years, practically everyone I know of has had at least one)

    The problem (if you ask me) is down to an insurance cartel - there's money to be made and they want to make it. It's as simple as that.

    When the government legally forces you to buy a product off a mere handful of companies - the temptation on those companies to take the piss is just too much to resist.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭TuringBot47


    The problem may be the lump sum nature of these things.
    And an insurance company wanting to know the cost up front to deduct it from their pool of money.

    Where it probably needs some form of annual payout, regular review of the injury, assessment of money lost due to job loss/etc.

    I certainly wouldn't want a measly €3k for a bad back problem potentially for life, or something that will inherently weaken my back permanently.
    Like a crashed car, your spine may never completely be as strong as before the crash, ligaments stretched, muscles damaged etc.

    So I'd say it's the big lump sum payout that is the issue here, not the idea of ongoing care for someone who had whiplash (which covers practically all forms of spinal injuries)


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Not everything can be solved by a referendum. True a referendum can be held on ordinary legislation, but there's a reason this has never happened, it's simply not needed. All that's needed is for legislation to be introduced you can do that by writing to your TD etc.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,057 ✭✭✭.......


    It can be easy to dismiss *some* claims as being fantastical until you dig a bit deeper into them.

    Someone I know sued a fast food company because he had bitten into his food and a metal washer was in it, he broke a tooth and ended up with a five digit payout. After it was in the papers I asked my dentist about it and she explained the level of dental work necessary to repair this. And how by the time he had gone through oral surgery and had an implant - he would have spent five digits AND would be left worse off than before because a dental implant requires further care and treatment throughout life and is simply never as good as the original tooth.

    Its easy to say "well yer man is grand" when you are not the one going through month of expensive dental work and the end result still being a lesser situation than the one you were in to start with.

    Same goes for orthopediac injuries. I know people who still have problems 10 years after car accidents. Sure, they are going around living a normal life, but they also have injuries that cause problems. Its not always visible to people.

    We certainly have plenty of chancers and a pretty serious compo culture at work, but there are genuine cases too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    The problem may be the lump sum nature of these things.
    And an insurance company wanting to know the cost up front to deduct it from their pool of money.

    Where it probably needs some form of annual payout, regular review of the injury, assessment of money lost due to job loss/etc.

    I certainly wouldn't want a measly €3k for a bad back problem potentially for life, or something that will inherently weaken my back permanently.
    Like a crashed car, your spine may never completely be as strong as before the crash, ligaments stretched, muscles damaged etc.

    So I'd say it's the big lump sum payout that is the issue here, not the idea of ongoing care for someone who had whiplash (which covers practically all forms of spinal injuries)


    The New Zealand model is similar to this so it's not unheard of to have an alternative approach, even in a Common Law country.


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    1 Start by addressing the issue that "it's always someone else's fault" mindset in TDs and other weaklings.

    2 If you are awarded money for a rpoblem, the money should go directly to the doctor treating you, and never to you nor your family
    There must be no incentive to make up injuries.

    3 Anyone with more than one claim in the last 15 years needs to be scrutinised.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,316 ✭✭✭Tilikum17


    My auld fella was in a small tip with a women (who has sued before). Anyway, she was suing for small tissue damage all over her body. I caught her running in a road race also attending a gym class.

    When I sent the details onto his car insurance crowd, they didn’t want to know about it & said they’d be paying out.

    Disgraceful.


  • Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭TuringBot47


    Really, the only way to tackle this is that you have to sign a legal declaration that you cannot sue a company/person for any injuries/death/loss of property before going on their property.

    God knows how that would work for drunk people in pubs/clubs, because they could claim they didn't know what they were signing.
    So you'd end up with "private pubs", where you must become a member beforehand and agree to the terms before entering.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,810 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    Not volumes... a "spine specialist" might've been needed for credibility in court, but a normal physio might be enough to treat them on a longer term basis.

    So how much did you get in your claim ?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 727 ✭✭✭InTheShadows


    Firstly you need the will of the elected government of the day to tackle the problem. They don't have that will so i can't see anything changing unfortunately.


  • Registered Users Posts: 10,684 ✭✭✭✭Samuel T. Cogley


    Really, the only way to tackle this is that you have to sign a legal declaration that you cannot sue a company/person for any injuries/death/loss of property before going on their property.

    God knows how that would work for drunk people in pubs/clubs, because they could claim they didn't know what they were signing.
    So you'd end up with "private pubs", where you must become a member beforehand and agree to the terms before entering.


    Generally that sort of declaration doesn't prevent someone from suing and neither should it in the case of negligence.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,810 ✭✭✭Hector Savage


    Not a chance - the absolute vast majority of insurance claims are legit.

    Not to mention the enormous number of valid claims which aren't pursued because it just wouldn't be worth the hassle (I personally have had 2 over the years, practically everyone I know of has had at least one)

    The problem (if you ask me) is down to an insurance cartel - there's money to be made and they want to make it. It's as simple as that.

    When the government legally forces you to buy a product off a mere handful of companies - the temptation on those companies to take the piss is just too much to resist.

    I'd love to know your claims, what do you feel you are owed money for ?


  • Registered Users Posts: 991 ✭✭✭TuringBot47


    So how much did you get in your claim ?

    Thankfully I've never had a crash nor the need for a claim.
    But I know that physios cost around €80 a visit, so I imagine a "spine specialist" is big money. No agenda with me, just an outside observer.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 40,061 ✭✭✭✭Harry Palmr


    Interestingly if insurance companies take the matter seriously things can improve.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/80-damage-to-car-led-to-215000-payout-says-aviva-as-it-ramps-up-fraud-inquiries-38158692.html
    Aviva Insurance's ten-fold increase in the number of investigators of suspected fraud it employs has contributed to the insurer winning 80pc of personal injury claims it has defended in the courts this year.
    That is according to investigations manager with Aviva Robert Smyth, who said: "It is very evident that in most cases, the courts will dismiss claims when the evidence is there to support a dismissal."

    Over the past four years, Mr Smyth has overseen the expansion of Aviva's investigation unit, with 30 officers now investigating suspected fraud, compared with three in 2015.

    and the industry has to deal with perpetually unlucky people like this
    In a separate case, Mr Smyth welcomed the dismissal of an appeal to the High Court by Ann Marie Mongans (39) of Clancy Park, Ennis, against the scale of an award she received in the circuit court.

    The €5,000 Ms Mongans received at Ennis Circuit Court in 2017 was the seventh award she had received, bringing to €110,000 the total received in all of her claims.

    The appeal was dismissed at the High Court sitting in Ennis after Ms Mongans failed to show. Mr Smyth confirmed Aviva has paid its own legal costs of €20,000 in the case.

    The May 2012 accident was the seventh accident where Ms Mongans has received compensation in a claim history spanning 29 years.

    :: Aged seven in 1988, Ms Mongans received €13,970 in compensation after being knocked down;

    :: 1998 - Ms Mongans was awarded €9,000 as a result of a road traffic accident;

    :: 1999 - Ms Mongans received compensation of €7,000 from a road accident at Clarecastle Rd, Ennis;

    :: 2004 - Ms Mongans received €11,000 from a road accident at Market Street in Ennis;

    :: 2006 - Ms Mongans received €55,000 as a result of breaking her pelvis and suffering back injuries in a road accident on Ennis's Quin Rd;

    :: 2011 - Ms Mongans received €10,000 from a road traffic accident near O'Connell Street in Limerick.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    Once the claim is paid many medical visits stop. It's like Lourdes


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    Interestingly if insurance companies take the matter seriously things can improve.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/80-damage-to-car-led-to-215000-payout-says-aviva-as-it-ramps-up-fraud-inquiries-38158692.html



    and the industry has to deal with perpetually unlucky people like this


    Some people just are unlucky


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,789 ✭✭✭2Mad2BeMad


    Interestingly if insurance companies take the matter seriously things can improve.

    https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/80-damage-to-car-led-to-215000-payout-says-aviva-as-it-ramps-up-fraud-inquiries-38158692.html



    and the industry has to deal with perpetually unlucky people like this

    Reminds me of Albert Trotter


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,825 ✭✭✭LirW


    Whenever a small business experiences trouble on their premises you can see the horror in the manager's face.
    I recent went for food in a Dublin restaurant and found a piece of glass in my dessert. I got the waiter over and told him, they reacted well and the manager took over our table. Seriously that poor man was sweating and panicking, but nothing happened to me and it was all good, we got a few freebies and I moved on from that.

    But that's it, I probably could have caused them some serious trouble and it simply baffles me how people are so ignorant to get businesses to the point of near-closure and then have the nerve to complain that it's so difficult to find X nowadays because nobody does it anymore. It really destroys small businesses that everyone hypocritically wants to support.

    That said, sometimes settlements are dragged through the media and people get mad about it where the case is genuine because the initial injury sounds ridiculous. It's hard to tell apart sometimes.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,630 ✭✭✭✭whisky_galore


    Firstly you need the will of the elected government of the day to tackle the problem. They don't have that will so i can't see anything changing unfortunately.

    For every person furious with the cost of insurance and compo culture there's another who will happily shut down their local business or playground for personal gain.
    Elected Govt only reflects the kind of people who elect them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,223 ✭✭✭✭biko


    Hairdresser Annette O’Connor, from Dublin of course; bangs knee, feels pain but bravely manage to finish her meal, gets an ice pack and a drink by staff.
    A High Court damages award to a woman who banged her knee against the leg of a table while sitting down to dinner

    O’Connor claimed she immediately felt pain and shock but had her meal before retiring to her room where staff had brought her an ice pack and a drink to settle her nerves.

    annette002.jpg


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,482 ✭✭✭Gimme A Pound


    But what to actually do... The problem being the center and middle classes don't usually do anything except complain and sneer at any actual attempts to act

    Set up a petition there, and I'll sign it and share it
    The centre and the middle classes - what?

    People need to stop buying into this anti middle-class bandwagon. It involves zero thought. And give me a centrist before an extreme right or extreme left leaning person any day. They're the one more likely to be open minded about matters like this.


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,176 ✭✭✭✭ILoveYourVibes


    Kivaro wrote: »
    Festivals, marts, creches, play centres, outdoor parks, and other small businesses around the country are closing down due to exaggerated insurance claims and corresponding insurance costs.

    One of the biggest adventure playgrounds in the country had to remove two trampolines from its grounds after its insurance was hiked by €25,000 ........ just for the two trampolines alone. And that's after no claims on those trampolines in the last 15 years. 61 play centres have been threatened with closure this year alone. (From the Irish Independent piece this morning: They're going to close down the country).

    Looking at the problem, we have judges awarding ludicrous, non-justifiable awards to claimants; many of whom are serial claimants.
    We have an inept Government minister Michael D'Arcy, who for the last 2 years have repeatedly told us ad nauseum on various television programs that he is making great progress in targeting insurance costs.
    We have an obvious insurance cartel in this country, who are exacerbating the problem so much that the EU had to send in a team to investigate their practices. Unfortunately, the Insurance cartel know that this formal antitrust investigation will take years to complete, and will gleefully money grab from us while they still allowed to do so.

    And then we have the fraudsters, which without a shadow of a doubt, make up the vast majority of claimants in this country.
    Case in point (From the examiner this morning): A study has found 100% of Irish whiplash patients attending a spine specialist pursued lawsuits — but the visits almost always stopped once the legal action was settled. Only 3% continued with follow-up treatment when litigation ended. That fact alone speaks volumes.

    Since the government is like a deer in the headlights tackling this issue and just watching businesses closing down (and people losing jobs) around the country due to insurance costs, and since Judges will not change their "ways" of awarding payouts that are multiples greater than other parts of Europe, let's have a referendum to drive down these compensation pay-outs.
    It is obvious that the current government and solicitor firms do not want this problem solved, so let the people decide .............. in a referendum.
    We need to have a word to FG about where they send their kids.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,221 ✭✭✭wally1990


    Tilikum17 wrote: »
    My auld fella was in a small tip with a women (who has sued before). Anyway, she was suing for small tissue damage all over her body. I caught her running in a road race also attending a gym class.

    When I sent the details onto his car insurance crowd, they didn’t want to know about it & said they’d be paying out.

    Disgraceful.

    Just had a weird thought ,

    Maybe I'm completely wrong but initially I was thinking surely the insurance company should take this on and stand up to these people and this will do the country better

    but their fear or excuse is they will lose and pay out even more (that's the risk, even when there is proof of no damage etc)

    OR

    They just pay out to put an end to it , avoid court , rack up insurance premiums and end up profiting more in the long run from the increased premiums v payouts to settle

    So it's a win win for the insurance and aul Joe blogs get screwed.

    Maybe that's happening anyway , but either way it's annoying they wouldnt take your evidence nor investigate themselves


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,812 ✭✭✭✭sbsquarepants


    I'd love to know your claims, what do you feel you are owed money for ?

    I don't feel I'm owed money - I had minor car accidents, no injuries and paid to fix the car myself as claiming would have cost me more in the long rung.

    What exactly is the point of comprehensive insurance if you end up paying to fix the car yourself anyway?

    I also had a flood in my apartment and had no end of trouble getting money from the insurance (block insurance through management company) I eventually after about a year, got half of it which covered maybe 80% of the cost but only because i'd done all the work myself.


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭LeinsterDub


    Edgware wrote: »
    Once the claim is paid many medical visits stop. It's like Lourdes

    Claims should be paid in the form of a card only accepted by licensed medical professionals


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,701 ✭✭✭jam_mac_jam


    biko wrote: »
    Hairdresser Annette O’Connor, from Dublin of course; bangs knee, feels pain but bravely manage to finish her meal, gets an ice pack and a drink by staff.



    annette002.jpg

    I didn't realise that this was a Dublin only problem. How interesting.


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