Pence comment on Brexit

rock22 · 04-09-2019 8:00am #1

Pence called in Ireland and EU to negotiate with UK in good faith. Notably , he made no request for the UK to negotiate in good faith. (quote "negotiate in good faith with Prime Minister Johnson and work to reach an agreement that respects the UK's sovereignty".)

Does this indicate a bias in US position? I thought it was very pointed that he choose to make the comment here in Ireland, almost as an admonishment to Varadker.

s7ryf3925pivug · 04-09-2019 8:03am

Trump openly admires the reflection of himself that he sees at the helm of the UK. It's Trump's position but not the USA's - the Democrats have promised to torpedo any UK trade deal in the event of a hard border being set up in ireland.

Sleeper12 · 04-09-2019 8:05am

I don't see it any differently to Enda Kenny going to England a week before the vote & campaigning for Irish living there to vote against Brexit.

handlemaster · 04-09-2019 8:06am

Like the US negotiates in good faith, come on can you take anything seriously from this administration.

pixelburp · 04-09-2019 8:17am

Wouldn't pay it any heed; it read like the most neutral of fluff to come across as peacemaker. In fact I'd go one further and say that it has been obvious that the current administration does not have Brexit or Ireland as a priority or ... diplomatic partner? Indeed the EU by Trumps own words is a rival and enemy of the US so can't expect calming words from there. Then again, Brexit has been a self inflicted wound, there wouldn't be much even George Mitchell could provide at this time. This is a period of emotional populism, a yearning for an era past, the need for diplomats has passed.

Congress seems more switched on and relevant however - and have said quite plainly that they wouldn't ok a trade deal with the UK if Brexit endangered the GFA. They're the rule makers here and the ones to listen to, especially as it's a majority of the opposite party to the admin.

In any case, the current administration has been shockingly under informed when it comes to international current affairs, particularly Brexit, so if anything Pence was likely attempting to appear a voice of calm deliberation - against the whirlwind of empty braggadocio that defines the President.

toleratethis · 04-09-2019 10:31am

I'm not 100% sure I caught it accurately but didn't Leo or Govt call Pence "a friend of Ireland" afterwards?

If so, that's worse than the original comment from Pence. He and his administration aren't our friends.

We do have friends in the USA but they ain't it.

osarusan · 04-09-2019 10:41am

toleratethis wrote: »

I'm not 100% sure I caught it accurately but didn't Leo or Govt call Pence "a friend of Ireland" afterwards?

If so, that's worse than the original comment from Pence. He and his administration aren't our friends.

We do have friends in the USA but they ain't it.

What do you expect him to say though?

They all just use a lot of stock phrases to express meaningless platitudes most of the time.

toleratethis · 04-09-2019 10:51am

osarusan wrote: »

toleratethis wrote: »

I'm not 100% sure I caught it accurately but didn't Leo or Govt call Pence "a friend of Ireland" afterwards?

If so, that's worse than the original comment from Pence. He and his administration aren't our friends.

We do have friends in the USA but they ain't it.

What do you expect him to say though?

They all just use a lot of stock phrases to express meaningless platitudes most of the time.

They do, which is what turns most people off them and paints politicians as disingenuous. I'd expect him to call Pence out on it. The Danish were quick to do so with Trump over Greenland.

Franz Von Peppercorn II · 04-09-2019 10:59am

I don’t think this was a stock phrase, if it is as reported here. He’s asking the EU and Ireland to negotiate in good faith, implying they aren’t and respecting the sovereignty of the U.K. is opposing the backstop which puts a border in the Irish Sea.

osarusan · 04-09-2019 12:59pm

Franz Von Peppercorn II wrote: »

I don’t think this was a stock phrase, if it is as reported here. He’s asking the EU and Ireland to negotiate in good faith, implying they aren’t and respecting the sovereignty of the U.K. is opposing the backstop which puts a border in the Irish Sea.

My comment about the stock phrase was about the 'friend of Ireland' comment to Pence.

s7ryf3925pivug · 04-09-2019 1:24pm

osarusan wrote: »

What do you expect him to say though?

They all just use a lot of stock phrases to express meaningless platitudes most of the time.

I guess he can say it but while he does he should rub his back, a little slowly, and not stop.

screamer · 04-09-2019 1:25pm

Not surprising Pence definition
plural pence\ ˈpens\ : a coin of the United Kingdom equal to ¹/₁₀₀ pound

s7ryf3925pivug · 04-09-2019 1:26pm

screamer wrote: »

Not surprising Pence definition
plural pence\ ˈpens\ : a coin of the United Kingdom equal to ¹/₁₀₀ pound

he could have used that to make a pun.

ancapailldorcha · 04-09-2019 1:33pm

screamer wrote: »

Not surprising Pence definition
plural pence\ ˈpens\ : a coin of the United Kingdom equal to ¹/₁₀₀ pound

Kalani Purple Wrongdoing wrote: »

he could have used that to make a pun.

Mod: Serious discussion only please.

ChikiChiki · 04-09-2019 10:27pm

I'm thought it showed strong bias towards the British side and was certainly a not so subtle dig. I'm not very impressed considering how strong his Irish roots are.

Mr.Nice Guy · 05-09-2019 12:14am

I liked Miriam's Lord take on it:

“Like pulling out all the stops for a much-anticipated visitor to your home and thinking it has been a great success until somebody discovers he shat on the new carpet in the spare room, the one you bought specially for him.”

Pence showed his twee, dear old Ireland flattery is just an act; unlike, say, Brendan Boyle, who has a serious, personal interest in what happens to Ireland.

mrbrianj · 05-09-2019 8:40am

Pence comes over for the photo op to secure his Irish American vote. Hopefully his Irish American vote will punish him for giving us the two fingers.

Really annoying that he paints the picture its us not negotiating in good faith, when in fact the opposite is clear as day!

Always Tired · 05-09-2019 8:50am

Definitely seemed like Pence was making clear how fond the Trump administration is of Boris Johnson.

I actually dislike Pence more than Trump (and I don't like Trump) but to me he is much more sinister, one of those holy joes that are pure evil underneath. He's got the extreme lack of personality and empathy you only see in a psychopath. The video of him looking on coldly at the men in the migrant camp begging for showers was awful.

The Republicans seem to have a pattern of putting a buffoon up front while the real nasty piece of work pulls the strings as VP. And I feel like Pence is even worse than Cheney was.

RobertKK · 05-09-2019 2:28pm

It was not a wise comment to make in Ireland, and he doubled down on it by repeating it while here.
One thing Irish people do not like is being told they should work to help a British leader like Boris Johnson. A leader who wanted to be PM so he could say he is PM rather than have any big plans that might actually work.
Trump has latched himself onto a leader who has a record of failure, and Pence implying Ireland and the EU have not acted in good faith up to now is ridiculous, he would have gotten away with it if he had included the UK with those comments.

jm08 · 05-09-2019 6:50pm

Interesting interpretation in the comments section of the Financial Times (behind paywall) about Pence's visit to Ireland:

Sanjeevs 11 hours ago

Given the drama in the UK one of the less publicised events was VP Pence being dispatched to Ireland. Pence's mission from Trump was to beg Ireland to give his mate Johnson something, anything which would help him out the hole he has dug. And Varadkar told him to sod off. Remarkable.

It got 211 recommends!

https://www.ft.com/content/110207f2-cea2-11e9-b018-ca4456540ea6

BluePlanet · 05-09-2019 7:41pm

Well it's looking like they have backed the wrong horse as BoJo is a total flop by most measurements.

Once he falls on his own sword, or creates a major constitutional crisis in the UK, there will be blow-back on Pence and Trump for supporting him.

fly_agaric · 05-09-2019 9:33pm

He was just reflecting Trump's policies.
Pro-Brexit and anti-EU. The EU as an organisation is to be viewed as an obstacle to US geopolitical goals, a strategic enemy.
IMO the goal is to foster acrimony and discord between European states and then treat with them individually as weakened US clients.
Very similar to Russia in many ways + total reversal of US policy towards Europe (both political parties) since WW2.

The thing is, I think these may now be mainstream ideas within the Republican party itself, and that is going to endure long after Trump has left office.
I don't think politicians in Europe have woken up to what this could mean really and how big a deal it is; may not even be on the radar here anyway.

edit: I suppose it is not something politicians here in Ireland can do anything about... Given how deeply embedded we are in the EU + how much we also depend on US investments and connections we have could be in a lot of trouble if US foreign policy becomes hostile to the EU each time a Republican president is in office.

cryptocurrency · 06-09-2019 12:28am

mrbrianj wrote: »

Pence comes over for the photo op to secure his Irish American vote. Hopefully his Irish American vote will punish him for giving us the two fingers.

Really annoying that he paints the picture its us not negotiating in good faith, when in fact the opposite is clear as day!

They don't read what our papers say in any numbers worth even talking about. They watch Fox like everyone else and know he was in Ireland and now the UK...that is it, that's all they ever know..or care

cryptocurrency · 06-09-2019 12:31am

fly_agaric wrote: »

He was just reflecting Trump's policies.
Pro-Brexit and anti-EU. The EU as an organisation is to be viewed as an obstacle to US geopolitical goals, a strategic enemy.
IMO the goal is to foster acrimony and discord between European states and then treat with them individually as weakened US clients.
Very similar to Russia in many ways + total reversal of US policy towards Europe (both political parties) since WW2.

The thing is, I think these may now be mainstream ideas within the Republican party itself, and that is going to endure long after Trump has left office.
I don't think politicians in Europe have woken up to what this could mean really and how big a deal it is; may not even be on the radar here anyway.

edit: I suppose it is not something politicians here in Ireland can do anything about... Given how deeply embedded we are in the EU + how much we also depend on US investments and connections we have could be in a lot of trouble if US foreign policy becomes hostile to the EU each time a Republican president is in office.

No, they know the EU is a protectionist block like the UK does. The EU "makes all these trade deals" on terms for certain powerful groups like french agri but the UK doesn't care about its protection as it wants to pump its services out globally and the US think all areas should open for competition.

US is sick of trying to do a deal with the EU on trade as they know the EU is dragging it out endlessly

jm08 · 06-09-2019 12:51am

cryptocurrency wrote: »

No, they know the EU is a protectionist block like the UK does. The EU "makes all these trade deals" on terms for certain powerful groups like french agri but the UK doesn't care about its protection as it wants to pump its services out globally and the US think all areas should open for competition.

US is sick of trying to do a deal with the EU on trade as they know the EU is dragging it out endlessly

The EU will never allow US agri food into the EU. And the main reason is because of hygiene standards, use of hormones and pesticides. If the US up their standards, there is every chance that some sort of a trade deal will be done.

By the way, wasn't BJ complaining to Trump at the G7 that the US will have to remove some of its protectionist barriers on financial services. Seemingly, every State has different laws.

jm08 · 06-09-2019 12:54am

Pence's twitter:

President @realDonaldTrump told me to tell Prime Minister @BorisJohnson that when Brexit is complete, we will begin negotiations on a free-trade deal IMMEDIATELY! Our message is clear: the minute the UK is Out, the US is In! &#55356;&#56826;&#55356;&#56824;

https://twitter.com/VP/status/1169728827213303808

Its going to be some fun when that starts! It will be interesting to see how Pete King responds to that message!

Peregrinus · 06-09-2019 7:03am

cryptocurrency wrote: »

No, they know the EU is a protectionist block like the UK does. The EU "makes all these trade deals" on terms for certain powerful groups like french agri but the UK doesn't care about its protection as it wants to pump its services out globally and the US think all areas should open for competition.

US is sick of trying to do a deal with the EU on trade as they know the EU is dragging it out endlessly

Greetings, visitor from planet Brexitmind! Here on planet Earth, the EU has a larger network of free trade deals, with many more countries, than the US has. And, for the rest of the world with whom it trades on most-favoured-nation terms, the EU's MFN tariffs are lower than the US's MFN tariffs. (And all this was true even before Trump came along.)

In other words, if you're going to categorise one of these two as "protectionist", it has to be the US unless you're (a) profoundly ignorant, or (b) a liar.

fash · 06-09-2019 5:05pm

Peregrinus wrote: »

In other words, if you're going to categorise one of these two as "protectionist", it has to be the US unless you're (a) profoundly ignorant, or (b) a liar.

There is also the possibility of both a AND b being true at the same time.

fly_agaric · 07-09-2019 12:28pm

cryptocurrency wrote: »

No, they know the EU is a protectionist block like the UK does. The EU "makes all these trade deals" on terms for certain powerful groups like french agri but the UK doesn't care about its protection as it wants to pump its services out globally and the US think all areas should open for competition.

US is sick of trying to do a deal with the EU on trade as they know the EU is dragging it out endlessly

Donald "trade wars are good and easy to win"/"America First" Trump is not a free-market idealist.
His philosophy (to extent he has one) is foriegn markets should be opened up to competition where US will win due to its natural strengths or it can rig the game some way so it will win. Meanwhile, the home/US market is protected.

cryptocurrency · 08-09-2019 8:01am

fly_agaric wrote: »

Donald "trade wars are good and easy to win"/"America First" Trump is not a free-market idealist.
His philosophy (to extent he has one) is foriegn markets should be opened up to competition where US will win due to its natural strengths or it can rig the game some way so it will win. Meanwhile, the home/US market is protected.

Trump and the US have been banging their head against a brick wall trying to get a EU trade deal and the EU have played every trick in the book to frustrate it to their way.

Trump has not really started the trade war with the EU yet and when he does it will hurt.

rogue-entity · 08-09-2019 2:16pm

cryptocurrency wrote: »

...the UK ... wants to pump its services out globally

Being in the EU doesn't prevent business in the UK from selling its services to citizens in third countries, unless those third countries put up barriers.

cryptocurrency wrote: »

and the US think all areas should open for competition.

That's not universally true, there are multiple sectors across the US economy with zero competition and straight up monopolies or coordinated oligopolies and they have actively worked to block and prevent any substantial effort that would affect those. The US is not unlike China - market competition is fine so long as US companies are dominant.

cryptocurrency wrote: »

US is sick of trying to do a deal with the EU on trade as they know the EU is dragging it out endlessly

No, the EU has standards and expects other countries to meet those standards, if and when the US chooses to follow suit, then deals get done.

Why should we lower our standards for the sake of American corporate profit?

fly_agaric wrote: »

Donald "trade wars are good and easy to win"/"America First" Trump is not a free-market idealist.
His philosophy (to extent he has one) is foreign markets should be opened up to competition where US will win due to its natural strengths or it can rig the game some way so it will win. Meanwhile, the home/US market is protected.

Not entirely unlike China's current position.

cryptocurrency wrote: »

Trump and the US have been banging their head against a brick wall trying to get a EU trade deal and the EU have played every trick in the book to frustrate it to their way.

Fixed it for you:

Trump and the US have been banging their head against a brick wall trying to get a EU trade deal [that requires the EU cede to US demands]and the EU have [refused to lower their standards]

The US is protectionist, your failure to acknowledge that while labelling the EU as such is disingenuous to the point of hypocrisy.

To the matter of Pence comment, Pence is reflecting the Trump Administration's view - they see the EU as an obstacle to US geopolitical and corporate interests as astutely noted by a poster before me - it really is as simple as that. And the Irish-American vote may yet punish him for it.

Pence comment on Brexit

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