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The Vandeleur Evictions

  • 04-11-2019 10:20pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭


    resized_battering-ram-eviction-national-library-ireland.jpg

    One of the most famous evictions took place in July, 1888, on the Vandeleur Estate near Kilrush, Co. Clare. Photographs from the evictions are held at the National Library of Ireland and the Clare County Library. The photos were not taken by locals but by tourists visiting from America, there is some suggestion that the tourists were really activists of Clan na Gael and had been a Canadian Fenian.

    In the decades after the Great Famine in Ireland, absentee landlords showed little mercy on their tenant farmers and their families. Instead, landlords would hike rent without regard to their tenants’ ability to pay, and would have their tenants evicted when they could not pay.

    Evictions on the Vandeleur estate in Co. Clare, which was owned by an absentee landlord, Captain Hector S. Vandeleur, lasted two weeks, families were forcibly removed from their homes and new evictions carried out day after day. The authorities had strength in numbers and a battering ram, which they used to destroy many houses.

    In response, there was a campaign of civil resistance and unrest as tenants refused to leave, preventing the authorities from removing them from their homes, resisting by whatever means necessary, pouring boiling water on the officers, setting fires to create barriers, or barricading themselves inside. In most cases, the goal was not to prevent being evicted but to put up a fight.

    Secret societies also formed throughout Ireland, such as the Molly Maguires, who used more forceful tactics frequently against land agents, middlemen, and tenants. Merchants and millers were often threatened or attacked if their prices were high. Landlords’ agents were threatened, beaten, and assassinated while new tenants on lands secured by evictions also became targets. There is also strong evidence of Molly Maguire activity in Liverpool, U.K and famously in Pennsylvania’s coal mining district, where similar tactics were used against mining companies in the miners strikes in the 1860′ & 1870’s.

    The Molly Maguires were portrayed in a movie in the 1970’s starring Sean Connery & Richard Harris, the story was based on true events, the Pennsylvanian Miners Strikes of the 1860’s & 70’s, they also featured in a song by the Irish folk band, The Dubliners.

    With Irish immigration into the U.S at high rates many immigrants also set up societies in their new homeland, such as the Ancient Order of Hibernians, who’s purpose was to act as guards to protect Catholic churches from anti-Catholic or Nativist forces in the mid-19th century, and to assist Irish immigrants, especially those who faced discrimination or harsh coal mining working conditions.

    Another such group was the Fenian Brotherhood, a group made up of almost 10,000 Amercian Civil war veterans. The Fenian Brotherhood forces invaded Canada from the US between 1866 & 1871, the goal was to hold Canada hostage in order for the return of Ireland from the British. There were 5 major raids into Canada however there was some brief success but eventually they they all ended in failure. Eventually the Fenian Brotherhood was dissolved and replaced by Clan na Gael.

    Going back to the Vandeleur Evictions, it wasnt uncommon for large crowds to gather to watch evictions at the time, hundreds sometimes thousands were in attendance to watch. The evictions began on the 18th July 1888

    The Clare Journal described the procession as follows:

    First came an outpost of four Hussars in single file, behind them was a car-full of Emergency men. At their rear came one Hussar. Two Hussars followed, and then came Colonel Turner, D.M., behind who was a police orderly. The succeeding car contained Mr. T.W.Russell, M.P.: Mr. H. Studdert, the agent on the estate, and Captain E. Croker, the sub-sheriff. After these came a large body of police, and then a small crowd of Emergency men. After them came the battering ram on a cart- a powerfully constructed engine, the beam being about 30 feet long, heavily shod with iron. Following it came the chief body of the troop of Hussars, and a company of the Berkshire Infantry Regiment, with a store wagon: then a second detachment of police, followed by still more Hussars, a further section of police, and then cars of visitors and all sorts, many of them being Englishmen and Americans….

    The first family that was to be evicted was that of Patrick McInerney at Dysert, McInerney himself was not present and his wife and family offered no resistance. About an hour after the McInerney’s house the party moved on to the house of James Finnucane at Clooneylissaun. Here the entrance was stuffed with bushes and heavy pieces of bog-deal. These were quickly cleared away and very little opposition was offered.

    The crowds which included the evicting parties, army, police and onlookers was now 1¼ miles long, and next went to the house of Michael Cleary, near Moneypoint. Cleary, had strongly barricaded the house and was clearly prepared to resist. A cordon of police and soldiers were set up around the house, but at some distance. The only people allowed within this circle, apart from officials, were journalists and some English and American visitors.

    The first action taken by the eviction party was to put a ladder against the side of the house and block the chimney with straw. Possession was then demanded-and the only reply heard was a laugh from some girls inside. The police were now ordered to fix their bayonets, while the bailiffs got to work with crowbars and hatchets, but there was little effect. An attack on the door moved it only slightly and hot water was thrown out from those inside. The tripod and battering ram were then brought up and after a long time eventually made a breach in the wall. A shower of hot water was thrown out through the breach.

    Finally, a large section of the wall crashed down to a cheer from the Emergency men. Two girls and their two brothers who were in the house were arrested by the police and a court held in the field at which they were remanded until the following Monday, the girls were granted bail. The house was then knocked to the ground. When this had been done it was four o’clock and the procession returned to Kilrush, where every shop had put up its shutters for the day.

    The following morning evictions took place again, there were now about 500 military and police taking part in the operation and they to evict Patrick Spellissy of Moyadda. Here the battering ram had to be used. There were just two further evictions on this day, both of them involving men named Madigan at Carnacalla. After some resistance, including the throwing of boiling water at the evictors, the battering ram did its work. It was estimated that about 10,000 people were present at the Thursday afternoon evictions.

    The evictions took a short break and resumed again on the 24th & 25th of July. The eviction that got most of the attention and the one that became a turning point in the campaign came on the morning of the 26th of July. The house of Matthias McGrath of Moyasta, was scheduled for eviction. The house was firmly barricaded and the battering ram was used. When the first breach was made in the wall, a shower of filth was thrown out which narrowly missed one of the magistrates, Mr. Roche. Finally, the police got into the house and overpowered Patrick McGrath, son of the owner.

    The Clare Journal reported.

    The struggle was for the moment dreadful. McGrath laid about him with extraordinary vigour. He had stones and missiles of all sorts around him, but he struck out with his fists and fought with the courage of a lion, but the numbers against him were more than a dozen such men could cope with, and he was at last pulled violently, still resisting, through the breach over the rubbish, when he was thrown to the ground for the purpose of having the handcuffs put on him. He presented a shocking appearance as he lay gasping for breath under the weight of several policemen, with the blood pouring from his battered head, while to add to the frightfulness of the scene, his mother was filling the air with her shrieks and lamentations…

    The photographs taken throughout these evictions were published in two newspapers in New York and on in Canada in 1889 and in an American magazine called The Gael which were published in 1901.

    Visit the website for more images:
    https://theirishmob.com/the-vandeleur-evictions/


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Very lightweight stuff. I really don’t see the point of these posts – other than to drive traffic to your website. Much of the content is ‘cut & paste’ from other sites or is highly superficial and ahistorical. Quoting the film ‘The Molly Maguires’ is akin to referencing ‘Braveheart’ or ‘The Patriot’ as representative of historic events. There is some serious content out there on evictions, for e.g. Dr. Ciaran Reilly’s project that is both worthwhile and original.

    The above post is just candyfloss.


  • Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭all_names_gone


    Very lightweight stuff. I really don’t see the point of these posts – other than to drive traffic to your website. Much of the content is ‘cut & paste’ from other sites or is highly superficial and ahistorical. Quoting the film ‘The Molly Maguires’ is akin to referencing ‘Braveheart’ or ‘The Patriot’ as representative of historic events. There is some serious content out there on evictions, for e.g. Dr. Ciaran Reilly’s project that is both worthwhile and original.

    The above post is just candyfloss.

    Don't like them, don't read them. I'm sure if there was a problem with the posts, someone with a bit of authority, would delete them. Next


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,609 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    Generally threads in the history forum drive some kind of debate; yours read like an essay.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭all_names_gone


    pinkypinky wrote: »
    Generally threads in the history forum drive some kind of debate; yours read like an essay.

    See below


  • Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭all_names_gone


    pinkypinky wrote: »
    Generally threads in the history forum drive some kind of debate; yours read like an essay.

    Well if they are in the wrong place please move them and point me in the right direction as to where they go. I wasn't aware I was breaking any rules by posting


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Don't like them, don't read them. I'm sure if there was a problem with the posts, someone with a bit of authority, would delete them. Next
    If something is posted on this (or any) forum it is open to be challenged. That is what this forum is for and it is a requirement when a post – such as yours - is grossly inaccurate, unrepresentative and misleading. Unchallenged posts turn the forum into a blog, which is not what we are here for. If you don’t want to be challenged go stick with your blog.

    Critically, your post fails to quantify the number of the 1888 evictions (about 20 families if I recall correctly), a drop in the ocean of evictions in West Clare since 1845. Plus you ignore the reasons why these happened.
    Photographs from the evictions are held at the National Library of Ireland and the Clare County Library. The photos were not taken by locals but by tourists visiting from America, there is some suggestion that the tourists were really activists of Clan na Gael and had been a Canadian Fenian
    The photograph you use is not by an American tourist – it, and most of the photos of that event, were taken by a photographer named French who worked for the Lawrence brothers of Dublin. (It also is in copyright, NLI, do you have their permission to publish it here?)
    In the decades after the Great Famine in Ireland, absentee landlords showed little mercy on their tenant farmers and their families. Instead, landlords would hike rent without regard to their tenants’ ability to pay, and would have their tenants evicted when they could not pay.
    Wrong. The cost of the rent was determined by the local demand, with prospective tenants bidding against each other for land. There also were other controls including a review system and judicial review.

    In addition to ignoring the Gladstone Land Act of 1881, you fail to mention the key and critical influences that directly led to these evictions– the ‘Plan of Campaign’, the Land League and the very important role of Catholic Church, up to and including the Pope. Nor do you detail why the tenants were evicted – they were ordered to withhold their rent. Furthermore, you have ignored the state of local finances. Vandeleur, for example, owned a row of houses in Kilrush which had an annual rental income of £11 – all in arrears – yet his Rates bill under the Poor Law was £22 annually on that property.

    Most tenants on the Vandeleur Kilrush estate owed more than two years rent, hundreds owed up to six years arrears. Vandeleur was prepared to write-off two years arrears and reduce rent by one third; the tenants wanted a reduction of about a half. A priest tried to mediate, Vandaleur acquiesced to his proposals but the tenants still refused to pay. Evictions were inevitable.

    Now tell me where I’m wrong.


  • Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭all_names_gone


    If something is posted on this (or any) forum it is open to be challenged. That is what this forum is for and it is a requirement when a post – such as yours - is grossly inaccurate, unrepresentative and misleading. Unchallenged posts turn the forum into a blog, which is not what we are here for. If you don’t want to be challenged go stick with your blog.

    Critically, your post fails to quantify the number of the 1888 evictions (about 20 families if I recall correctly), a drop in the ocean of evictions in West Clare since 1845. Plus you ignore the reasons why these happened.


    The photograph you use is not by an American tourist – it, and most of the photos of that event, were taken by a photographer named French who worked for the Lawrence brothers of Dublin. (It also is in copyright, NLI, do you have their permission to publish it here?)


    Wrong. The cost of the rent was determined by the local demand, with prospective tenants bidding against each other for land. There also were other controls including a review system and judicial review.

    In addition to ignoring the Gladstone Land Act of 1881, you fail to mention the key and critical influences that directly led to these evictions– the ‘Plan of Campaign’, the Land League and the very important role of Catholic Church, up to and including the Pope. Nor do you detail why the tenants were evicted – they were ordered to withhold their rent. Furthermore, you have ignored the state of local finances. Vandeleur, for example, owned a row of houses in Kilrush which had an annual rental income of £11 – all in arrears – yet his Rates bill under the Poor Law was £22 annually on that property.

    Most tenants on the Vandeleur Kilrush estate owed more than two years rent, hundreds owed up to six years arrears. Vandeleur was prepared to write-off two years arrears and reduce rent by one third; the tenants wanted a reduction of about a half. A priest tried to mediate, Vandaleur acquiesced to his proposals but the tenants still refused to pay. Evictions were inevitable.

    Now tell me where I’m wrong.

    Hey, I'm not going to challenge your superior intellect. You should write your own post, I'd gladly read that


  • Registered Users Posts: 180 ✭✭jucko


    If something is posted on this (or any) forum it is open to be challenged. That is what this forum is for and it is a requirement when a post – such as yours - is grossly inaccurate, unrepresentative and misleading. Unchallenged posts turn the forum into a blog, which is not what we are here for. If you don’t want to be challenged go stick with your blog.

    Critically, your post fails to quantify the number of the 1888 evictions (about 20 families if I recall correctly), a drop in the ocean of evictions in West Clare since 1845. Plus you ignore the reasons why these happened.


    The photograph you use is not by an American tourist – it, and most of the photos of that event, were taken by a photographer named French who worked for the Lawrence brothers of Dublin. (It also is in copyright, NLI, do you have their permission to publish it here?)


    Wrong. The cost of the rent was determined by the local demand, with prospective tenants bidding against each other for land. There also were other controls including a review system and judicial review.

    In addition to ignoring the Gladstone Land Act of 1881, you fail to mention the key and critical influences that directly led to these evictions– the ‘Plan of Campaign’, the Land League and the very important role of Catholic Church, up to and including the Pope. Nor do you detail why the tenants were evicted – they were ordered to withhold their rent. Furthermore, you have ignored the state of local finances. Vandeleur, for example, owned a row of houses in Kilrush which had an annual rental income of £11 – all in arrears – yet his Rates bill under the Poor Law was £22 annually on that property.

    Most tenants on the Vandeleur Kilrush estate owed more than two years rent, hundreds owed up to six years arrears. Vandeleur was prepared to write-off two years arrears and reduce rent by one third; the tenants wanted a reduction of about a half. A priest tried to mediate, Vandaleur acquiesced to his proposals but the tenants still refused to pay. Evictions were inevitable.

    Now tell me where I’m wrong.


    great post!!


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,639 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Hey, I'm not going to challenge your superior intellect. You should write your own post, I'd gladly read that
    /mod note, please respond in a more measured fashion to engage with the points made by other posters.


  • Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭all_names_gone


    Manach wrote: »
    /mod note, please respond in a more measured fashion to engage with the points made by other posters.


    Just as a point of interest. Am I required to engage with people? I just ask I haven't read that in the forum rules, I thought I just had to reply respectfully


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  • Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭all_names_gone


    Manach wrote: »
    /mod note, please respond in a more measured fashion to engage with the points made by other posters.

    I just ask that as someone previously said they didn't see the point of my posts, so if there no requirements to engage with someone who doesn't see the point of my posts, I don't really see what the issue is


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,609 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    Why would you post on a message board if you don't want to engage?

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users Posts: 71 ✭✭all_names_gone


    pinkypinky wrote: »
    Why would you post on a message board if you don't want to engage?

    I never said I didn't want to engage, I asked was it a requirement to engage with someone who clearly states they don't see the point in my posts.

    Therefore if they don't see the point of the posts, why engage in the first place, and commented a few times after.

    Seems like trolling or flaming for want of better words.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Just as a point of interest. Am I required to engage with people? I just ask I haven't read that in the forum rules, I thought I just had to reply respectfully
    A guy comes along to the pitch, runs on, picks up the ball on the fly, hops it off his hurley a few times as he runs down the pitch and then smashes it into the back of the net. When the ref says (a) that is an ‘own goal’ (b) that style of play is not allowed and (c) we are playing hockey here, so the rules are ours. The player moans, whines and says he has that he not read the rules. And again moans and whines.

    Here are a few excerpts from the charter
    No links to personal blogs
    If you disagree with someone it would be a lot better to convince them to your way of thinking through logical debate
    If you cannot provide a source or reason for holding a controversial opinion then it may be better to keep it to yourself


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,875 ✭✭✭Edgware


    I just ask that as someone previously said they didn't see the point of my posts, so if there no requirements to engage with someone who doesn't see the point of my posts, I don't really see what the issue is
    I thought your post was very interesting. Having recently visited the Famne Museum in Strokestown I was able to realise waht happened in the mid 1800s and how it impacted on land clearance, emigration sponsored by landlords etc. The treatment endured by the native Irish from their landlords created the situation where Irish Americans never forgot and would support Clan na Gael etc


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,181 ✭✭✭bobbyss


    Edgware wrote:
    I thought your post was very interesting. Having recently visited the Famne Museum in Strokestown I was able to realise waht happened in the mid 1800s and how it impacted on land clearance, emigration sponsored by landlords etc. The treatment endured by the native Irish from their landlords created the situation where Irish Americans never forgot and would support Clan na Gael etc


    Is the Museum worth a visit?


  • Registered Users Posts: 12,363 ✭✭✭✭Del.Monte


    bobbyss wrote: »
    Is the Museum worth a visit?


    Apparently it is, and there's a fine restaurant there too where you can stuff yourself while thinking of all those who starved to death.

    https://www.strokestownpark.ie/


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,609 Mod ✭✭✭✭pinkypinky


    Del.Monte wrote: »
    Apparently it is, and there's a fine restaurant there too where you can stuff yourself while thinking of all those who starved to death.

    https://www.strokestownpark.ie/

    I absolutely don't mean to make light of famine deaths, but I always like to think that those people would have eaten their fill if they could have and wouldn't want to deprive others.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • Registered Users Posts: 5,181 ✭✭✭bobbyss


    Del.Monte wrote:
    Apparently it is, and there's a fine restaurant there too where you can stuff yourself while thinking of all those who starved to death.


    OK. Might be worth a go. Bit of a low profile. Should be pushed more. Thanks.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    bobbyss wrote: »
    OK. Might be worth a go. Bit of a low profile. Should be pushed more. Thanks.
    Low profile? It's been highlighted in the media for years, a stop-off point on the main tourist trails, a place to bring many visiting dignitaries and it has been on the school tour circuit since it opened.:confused:
    However, it has absolutely zero relevance to this thread; the Vandeleur evictions were decades after the Famine and were for political reasons not simply crop failure/inability to pay the rent. A bit like talking about Arnhem in a discussion of the Somme.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 5,181 ✭✭✭bobbyss


    Low profile? It's been highlighted in the media for years, a stop-off point on the main tourist trails, a place to bring many visiting dignitaries and it has been on the school tour circuit since it opened. However, it has absolutely zero relevance to this thread; the Vandeleur evictions were decades after the Famine and were for political reasons not simply crop failure/inability to pay the rent. A bit like talking about Arnhem in a discussion of the Somme.


    Low profile for me certainly. I can't remember the last time I saw on TV, radio or the press in general any mention of it at all. There may very well have been some publicity campaign at some stage or other but I must have missed it. I can't recall seeing much coverage of visiting dignitaries' visits. Again however I may have missed those.

    But a digression. Back to thread topic.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    If something is posted on this (or any) forum it is open to be challenged. That is what this forum is for and it is a requirement when a post – such as yours - is grossly inaccurate, unrepresentative and misleading. Unchallenged posts turn the forum into a blog, which is not what we are here for. If you don’t want to be challenged go stick with your blog.

    Critically, your post fails to quantify the number of the 1888 evictions (about 20 families if I recall correctly), a drop in the ocean of evictions in West Clare since 1845. Plus you ignore the reasons why these happened.


    The photograph you use is not by an American tourist – it, and most of the photos of that event, were taken by a photographer named French who worked for the Lawrence brothers of Dublin. (It also is in copyright, NLI, do you have their permission to publish it here?)


    Wrong. The cost of the rent was determined by the local demand, with prospective tenants bidding against each other for land. There also were other controls including a review system and judicial review.

    In addition to ignoring the Gladstone Land Act of 1881, you fail to mention the key and critical influences that directly led to these evictions– the ‘Plan of Campaign’, the Land League and the very important role of Catholic Church, up to and including the Pope. Nor do you detail why the tenants were evicted – they were ordered to withhold their rent. Furthermore, you have ignored the state of local finances. Vandeleur, for example, owned a row of houses in Kilrush which had an annual rental income of £11 – all in arrears – yet his Rates bill under the Poor Law was £22 annually on that property.

    Most tenants on the Vandeleur Kilrush estate owed more than two years rent, hundreds owed up to six years arrears. Vandeleur was prepared to write-off two years arrears and reduce rent by one third; the tenants wanted a reduction of about a half. A priest tried to mediate, Vandaleur acquiesced to his proposals but the tenants still refused to pay. Evictions were inevitable.

    Now tell me where I’m wrong.

    I have no idea if the detail you have supplied on the Vandeleur evictions is accurate or not. I'll take your post at face value. What I question is the generalized description of the situation from 1847 to 1888. OP mentioned that "in the decades after the Famine etc." to which you replied "Wrong. The cost etc." Are you describing a countrywide process that was uniformly applied across the country 1847-1888? OP has made a wide ranging statement and like all such is open to correction by local variations. I am unclear if your description claims an equally general applicability and if so the source for such would be good to see.

    My next concern with your post is the absence of a narrative strand on the whole raison d'etre of the Land League which gave rise to the Plan of Campaign i.e. the land of Ireland for the people of Ireland. To my mind your narrative reads as a factual description of the events devoid of context. Being so devoid it, by absence, wittingly or unwittingly, reads as if Vandeleur was a model of rectitude and a reasonable man. In much the same way a kidnapper might be made to seem reasonable by describing the negotiations where he reduces the demand. I know perfectly well there is a school of history that regards facts as its meat and potatoes. There is to my mind a better history which contextualises things: the context is missing from your post.

    The OP is posting in History and Heritage. No doubt the definition of "heritage" in the forum is probably quite academic but I think the post was welcome to show how heritage is broader that what might be usually thought so.

    A question then on the RIC. Is that one of them in the picture? It might be of benefit to the current Minister for Justice to reflect on their presence at such evictions and the effect of that.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    bobbyss wrote: »
    Low profile for me certainly. I can't remember the last time I saw on TV, radio or the press in general any mention of it at all. .......


    Correct there - it is run by a charitable trust and while it does get some help from the Dept. of Heritage, there's not much available to advertise heavily!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    KWAG2019 wrote: »
    I have no idea if the detail you have supplied on the Vandeleur evictions is accurate or not. I'll take your post at face value. What I question is the generalized description of the situation from 1847 to 1888. OP mentioned that "in the decades after the Famine etc." to which you replied "Wrong. The cost etc." Are you describing a countrywide process that was uniformly applied across the country 1847-1888? OP has made a wide ranging statement and like all such is open to correction by local variations. I am unclear if your description claims an equally general applicability and if so the source for such would be good to see.

    My next concern with your post is the absence of a narrative strand on the whole raison d'etre of the Land League which gave rise to the Plan of Campaign i.e. the land of Ireland for the people of Ireland. To my mind your narrative reads as a factual description of the events devoid of context. Being so devoid it, by absence, wittingly or unwittingly, reads as if Vandeleur was a model of rectitude and a reasonable man. In much the same way a kidnapper might be made to seem reasonable by describing the negotiations where he reduces the demand. I know perfectly well there is a school of history that regards facts as its meat and potatoes. There is to my mind a better history which contextualises things: the context is missing from your post.

    The OP is posting in History and Heritage. No doubt the definition of "heritage" in the forum is probably quite academic but I think the post was welcome to show how heritage is broader that what might be usually thought so.

    A question then on the RIC. Is that one of them in the picture? It might be of benefit to the current Minister for Justice to reflect on their presence at such evictions and the effect of that.


    If (by your own admission) you don’t know much about the Vandeleur evictions, and if you have to ask if they were an example of a countrywide process that was uniformly applied across the country 1847-1888, there is little point in a debate with you. Twenty families were evicted on the Vandeleur estate due to a very particular set of circumstances. Those evictions are representative of that corner of Clare at that point in time, nothing else, and certainly cannot be used as a general representation of evictions, least of all of those in the Famine period. I have repeatedly stated in posts made over several years that ‘context’ is critical in assessing history - if you need 'context' please do your own homework. Volumes and PhD theses have been written on evictions, including those on the Vandeleur estate. Read some of them, get up to speed and I’ll be happy to debate.
    PS Your comment on the RIC/Minister for Justice does somewhat give your game away.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 834 ✭✭✭KWAG2019


    If (by your own admission) you don’t know much about the Vandeleur evictions, and if you have to ask if they were an example of a countrywide process that was uniformly applied across the country 1847-1888, there is little point in a debate with you.

    It needs to be spelt out. OP made a remark covering decades. You described a process. I asked you, yes you, if you are claiming that was a uniform countrywide process during those decades and if so to supply a source. You ran away from the question. Simple enough to say yes and give a source. But no answer is rather more interesting.
    I have repeatedly stated in posts made over several years that ‘context’ is critical in assessing history - if you need 'context' please do your own homework.
    PS Your comment on the RIC/Minister for Justice does somewhat give your game away.

    It's not about me "needing" context, its about you leaving it out. And admitting you know the importance of it and leaving it out makes your post look even shabbier.

    I don't have a game. I'm curious about the figure in uniform. Could be part of the occupying army. Could be part of paramilitary colonial police force that enforced British law in Ireland. The minister considers the killing of these during the War of Independence "murder". Reading the history of evictions alone would give reason to understand why they were killed. You may consider that a "game". I think OP contributed to a forum which didn't prove very gracious.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Why continue to attack the man, not the ball? You’ve added nothing to this debate, nothing but a whine for ‘context’ – the context is there, in sufficient headline words for anyone to research if unaware of the facts. You have detracted from the debate with your effort to bring it off-topic with remarks on ‘colonial police’ and references to present-day politicians.

    In efforts to promote his own blog the OP has initiated yet another thread, again with a post made up of his cut/paste of swathes of text from sites such as the American ‘Irish Central’ (not exactly renowned for its lack of bias!). For example his text - 'landlords showed little mercy on their tenant farmers and their families, who had just defied all odds with their survival. Instead, these landlords, many of them absentee, would hike rents without regard to circumstance or their tenants' ability to pay, and then call upon authorities to have their tenants evicted.' is straight from HERE

    Contrary to your assertion, most see this forum as welcoming to those with a knowledge of history & heritage or a genuine interest in it. What is unwelcome, because it is killing this forum are posts by those who use it to troll or to promote an agenda. You, for example, have some audacity to POST in a heritage forum “It galls me to see money found for restoration of the big house” and “Memorialising colonial piles is quite frankly obscene.” Are old Norman castles not ‘colonial piles’? Clearly you have no idea of what constitutes heritage or how it is ‘funded’ by the State and dropped out of that thread rather quickly.

    The majority of those interested in the history of Co. Clare are fully aware of the excellent Clare County Library website which has a worthwhile article on the Vandeleur episode HERE. Read it and you will get all the context you require.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13 Shawnee Poole


    Low profile? It's been highlighted in the media for years, a stop-off point on the main tourist trails, a place to bring many visiting dignitaries and it has been on the school tour circuit since it opened.:confused:
    However, it has absolutely zero relevance to this thread; the Vandeleur evictions were decades after the Famine and were for political reasons not simply crop failure/inability to pay the rent. A bit like talking about Arnhem in a discussion of the Somme.

    Arnhem where decendants of the Vandeleur family saw action. Lt Col JOE Vandeleur and Lt Col Giles Vandeleur.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,108 ✭✭✭pedroeibar1


    Arnhem where decendants of the Vandeleur family saw action. Lt Col JOE Vandeleur and Lt Col Giles Vandeleur.

    Yes. Giles and Joe were second cousins, their grandfathers were brothers. Michael Caine played one, Michael Byrne the other in ‘A Bridge Too Far’. Like Caine, Byrne has played several military film roles. He is one of those ‘jobbing actors’ that pops up everywhere, from Indiana Jones to Bond to Gangs of New York to Harry Potter. He also played the officer who tried to rape Mel Gibson’s wife in ‘Braveheart’. (Somewhat off-topic, but it is history!);)


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