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RTE Announce FTA Saorsat service

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  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Dish..

    The Satellites are 22,500 miles above the equator.

    A perforated Sky dish is no good for Ka.
    Zone 1 is too small for Ireland, except maybe Waterford.

    Satellite Internet is not a replacement for UPC, phone line Broadband or Metro
    . It has minimum latency of about 790ms. It's instead of unreliable 3G Mobile, VSAT (satellite two way) is only when real Broadband is not available. It uses a special dish/feed arrangement. Not a Triax dish and multifeed bar.

    If you Don't have Tooway Internet, just satellite TV:

    134102.png
    Sky/Freesat - - - Astra 19 -- Hotbird 13 - 9E
    All are Ku Quattro. The 9E needs swapped for a Ka-LNBF. A Ka-LNBF is smaller internally but can be in standard mount. (Ka is approx 1/2" waveguide instead of approx 3/4" waveguide of Ku)
    The 90/95cm Dish is aligned on 16E and Triax Multifeed bar is re-drilled about 1/3 distance to allow 28E further out.

    The LNBs feed a EMP-Centauri 16+1 in 16 out multiswitch. Ka will only need one feed to one Multiswitch input as all signals are same band and polarisation. Two of the remaining inputs of those four could be L & R or H &V of C-Band.

    No, the bush is not in the way, nor these trees (yet) :(
    134104.png

    (The motorised dish is 110cm Triax using Motek SG2100, many years ago from Tony, www.satellite.ie)


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,473 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    FRIENDO wrote: »
    A regular Triax feed bar and regular 80cm solid dish for 28E and 9E,
    I understand the above for Freesat and Saorsat.
    In relation to internet will this mean I can recieve Internet through 9E without a phone line coming into the house.
    Thanks

    Ka-Sat will primarily provide a two-way broadband service over Europe with an appropriate dish/LNB and satellite modem without a phone line.

    Eircom are offering such a service (but its not cheap) - http://www.eircom.ie/cgi-bin/bvsm/bveircom/bladerunner/showContent.jsp?BV_SessionID=@@@@0119252257.1289171185@@@@&BV_EngineID=cccgadelmdmmiglcefeceiedffndffg.0&cid=BroadbandSatelliteRes&site=Res&chanId=-536889573
    Discussion here - http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056081234

    A satellite broadband provider could also bundle the Saorsat service as part of a satellite broadband package.

    This from Conor Hayes last July
    Mr. Conor Hayes: No. DTT will not be able to provide broadband per se. We always argued with the commercial operators, such as the One Vision consortium, which included Eircom, that DTT allowed a triple play option. For example, the operator could go to my mother in Mitchelstown and provide her with telephone and broadband via landline, stick in a DTT box for television services and provide triple play on the one bill. This would have allowed commercial operators to compete with the satellite operators or UPC in Dublin.

    Our satellite option would operate on the Ka band as opposed to the Ka band. The Ka band is typically used for telecommunications purposes or contributions between broadcasters. The Ka band is used by the single largest pay television operator in the US, DirecTV, which uses it to deliver high definition television. It works on a consumer basis and is a proven product in weather conditions.

    People are offering satellite services over broadband. If one has a broadband service over satellite, one is capable of offering telephony or voice over IP, VoIP. If we are up there in the clear, some bright spark might offer people broadband, telephony and Irish channels - RTE, TG4, TV3 and so on - without their needing to spend much money.

    http://debates.oireachtas.ie/DDebate.aspx?F=MAJ20100714.xml&Node=H2&Page=3


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    However while so-called Satellite "Broadband" is much better than so-called Mobile "Broadband" on reliability, jitter, packet loss, always on, speed and controlled contention if a decent package, neither are Broadband (Satellite Latency too high for games/real time and awkward for VOIP/Skype), especially not Mobile. Mobile has the value of being Mobile.
    Different kinds of Internet Access: http://www.techtir.ie/forums/internet-faq
    (Imagine WiMax is almost unique being really a Mobile system, but disadvantaged by wrong band for Mobile and no National Licence, so some situations worse than 3G mobile and others better).

    Why even 21Mbps Mobile can be worse than 1Mbps DSL (phone line): http://www.techtir.ie/comms/mobile-vs-fixed
    Mobile is best (only solution) when you need Internet on the go.
    Satellite (VSAT) is best when there is no other broadband available. A better subsitute than Mobile and very like Broadband if you don't need VOIP/Skype or Gaming/Poker or eBay sniping.

    Ka-Sat is primarily designed for European, Middle East and North Africa Interent Use, with 1000x capacity of earlier VSAT systems. Largest capacity ever. It just happens to be launching at the "right time" for Irish Digital Television with a few things to make it cheapest ever platform for Irish FTA satellite TV.
    • About x10 to x20 inherently lower cost per Mbps of bandwidth (Price will not be so low
    • Irish dedicated spot, 80+ spots with polarisation/band reuse further limits coverage (solves rights issues, makes it cheap)
    • No Ku, so no demand for existing @9E TV platform makes it cheaper
    • A spot is all one polarity & Band making single LNB output distribution possible.
    • Prices aimed at competing with cheaper European Broadband, so TV carriage cheap.
    • Uses DVB-S2, so less MHz needed per Mbps of data
    • "Virtual Transponders", so can "create" two transponders with copy of terrestrial Mux MPEG-TS, allows for cheap DTT site backup and Community DTT, hotel and Apartment feeds converting via ASI from DVB-S2 to DVB-T with inexpensive off the shelf gear.
    • Allows very small boxed "dish" that doesn't look like a dish, for existing Sky or Freesat users, beating the "one dish rule"
    • Will actually work to edge of North East N.I., but essentially not in mainland UK at all (once French Spot ar Channel is active, before it is, large dish on UK West coast will work.)

    If it's successful, a similar opportunity may not exist for another 4 to 5 years.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭channelsurfer2


    ok still a bit confused with the ka and ku etc having read all the posts...especially the disqeq switch thing and the point about the humax box being able to use it..will i still need someone to put another dish up or extra lnb on the sky dish to get saorsat? anychance of an FAQ thing for people like me who have some knowledge but are not familiar with the ins and outs?


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    See http://www.techtir.ie/node/1003507#comment-1004334

    Already extensively discussed.

    A Sky dish can't even be used for a 2nd Ku LNB sensibly and can't really ever be used for Ka-Band. Just like many C-band dishes are not suitable for Ku-Band.


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  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,656 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    watty wrote: »
    There is no prize, but can you name all the EU countries and overseas territories that are NOT in Europe Geographically?
    Again no prize but does anyone know which country has the southernmost point ?

    watty wrote: »
    Iceland may apply to join EU and is only place in Europe growing bananas. Ireland is a real banana republic, having at one stage been the biggest exporter in the world :)
    Actually we were the biggest manufacturers of bananas.




    dowtchaboy wrote: »
    Most of these are military bases. The most interesting one is probably Diego Garcia where they shamefully just shifted the inhabitants out and leased the place to the US Airforce.
    Most shameful thing from an Irish perspective about Diego is that Eircom used to have a Band 13 solely for there. Which makes no sense since the US military has their own comms and everyone else had been ejected from the island, The code was used for extortionate scam calls of which eircom got a very nice slice.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,390 ✭✭✭FRIENDO


    If a satellite broadband service provider could bundle the Saorsat service as part of a satellite broadband package it would be good.

    I have no telephone line as Eircom would have to plant a number of new poles to reach my house, mobile broadband is slow in my location

    Saorsat/broadband could be a reasonably priced solution


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,325 ✭✭✭✭Tony


    what does any of this have to do with the thread topic?
    Again no prize but does anyone know which country has the southernmost point ?

    Desktop PC Boards discount code on https://www.satellite.ie/ is boards.ie



  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,150 ✭✭✭Johnmb


    FRIENDO wrote: »
    I have no telephone line as Eircom would have to plant a number of new poles to reach my house, mobile broadband is slow in my location
    Surely that's Eircom's problem, not yours. They are the universal carrier, the extra money it would cost them to get you on the network is more than offset by the the fact that they can charge the same amount to people who live next to the exchange and it costs very little to hook up.


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,102 ✭✭✭Stinicker


    Does anybody here have any idea about Ka-Sat LNBs? I wonder would a DirecTV Ka-Sat LNB from the United States work or are they on a propriety system? I have a 1 metre motorised dish and can pick up 9° East no problem on the KU Band. I have relatives that might be coming from the US for Christmas and I could get them to bring it (if it would work) saving me both shipping and VAT costs, as internal US shipping is less than $10. I'd like to begin receiving any KA tests or trials from day one with the plan to buy the Saorsat dish and receiver box later on whenever it hits the highstreet.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    No, DirecTV uses circular polarisations. 100% not suitable.

    You can use an LNB off a Tooway (US Wildblue, Tooway in Europe). It needs a little horn. I'll be publicising a solution before the time. Nothing to receive till April anyway.

    End December Launch
    Transfer orbit
    Clarke Belt positioning ( Jan)
    System testing (Feb/March)
    Operational (April)

    RTE don't get to put signals till the satellite is operational.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭Apogee




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭Apogee


    19th November 2010 afternoon local time, was the Baikonur Cosmodrome in Kazakhstan, delivered by a European telecommunications satellite KA-SAT in preparation for the delivery of the Proton carrier rocket.

    Ka-Sat satellite was constructed by EADS Astrium on the basis of an order of French satellite operator Eutelsat Communications. The contract for delivery of the Ka-Sat satellite was signed with a Russian-American company International Launch Services (ILS).

    KA-SAT will be launched in December 2010. It's already the eighth mission Proton rocket this year.

    Ka-Sat will be more than 80 transponders with many links and it will be the latest satellite in the world. The satellite will serve to develop two-way Internet Tooway.

    The new satellite will be parked at the orbital position 9 ° E (originally planned at 13 ° E). The satellite was taken on the Eurostar E3000 platform. This is the 17th satellite, Eutelsat is manufactured with EADS Astrium.

    The life expectancy is 15 years.

    Russian-English web-translation.
    http://www.rbc.ru/rbcfreenews/20101119191728.shtml


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭Apogee


    ILS Ka-Sat blog is up and running.
    ILS wrote:
    KA-SAT Campaign Begins!

    Posted by ILS Launch Team, 4:20 p.m. EDT on 19 November 2010


    Welcome to the KA-SAT launch campaign blog. Let’s do it!

    We are in full swing here in Baikonur after saying goodbye to the SkyTerra 1 team and welcoming the KA-SAT main team on Wednesday. The weather has been mild thus far, with fog greeting us in the morning only to burn off by the afternoon, so we have beautiful sunsets and night skies full of stars.

    There has been a flurry of activity since the early team arrival on 11 November. Between managing the overlap with the SkyTerra 1 team and getting the KA-SAT campaign off the ground, we’ve definitely hit the ground running. Especially our Program Integrator, since it is her first time in Baikonur, there are lots of new stuff to learn.

    Khrunichev gave us a tour of Hall 111 to see the KA-SAT launch vehicle, and Dr. Bronfman, director of programs at Khrunichev, provided us with many good stories about the history of the Proton during the tour. On Thursday, we were able to see the launch vehicle before it went to testing. It’s quite a sight to see it in a horizontal position because of its massive size.

    The good news today is that the spacecraft arrived! It was a chilly, windy day out at the airfield, so strong that it could have knocked you over. It’s been a long day, and it’s not over yet. We’ll have the fitcheck either tomorrow or Sunday. These long days keep us busy.

    We’ve taken a break from BBQs, but we’ll have a big Thanksgiving celebration, complete with turkey and all the fixings. :-)

    http://www.ilslaunch.com/ka-sat-blog


  • Registered Users Posts: 15,473 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    This from today's Broadband TV News
    Eutelsat KA-SAT ready for take-off
    By Julian Clover
    Published: November 22, 2010 11.33 Europe/London

    Eutelsat’s latest satellite, KA-SAT, has been flown to the Baikonour Cosmodrome in Kazakhstan, ahead of its December 20 launch on board a Proton rocket.

    The Astrium-built satellite weighs in at 6.1 tonnes and will form the backbone of a new European infrastructure that includes eight main gateways and two back-up gateways located across Europe and connected to the Internet by a fibre backbone ring.

    Its total capacity of more than 70 Gbps makes KA-SAT one of the world’s most powerful spacecraft. In a statement, Eutelsat said Europe’s first High-Throughput Satellite (HTS) will usher in a new era of competitively-priced satellite-delivered services.

    “KA-SAT’s multi-spotbeam design, use of Ka-band frequencies and proven systems deployed in North America by our technology partner, ViaSat, will transform the volume of bandwidth available through a single satellite and the scope and economics for new services,” said Michel de Rosen, Eutelsat’s CEO. “With this pan-European infrastructure complementing our Ku-band resources that will be progressively expanded and modernised with six new satellites, Eutelsat is uniquely positioned to further push back the boundaries of satellite-delivered services across the markets we serve.”

    KA-SAT will have pan-European coverage and offer a platform suitable for data communications, local and regional broadcasting, IPTV and emerging video applications needing ultra high-bit rates such as HD digital cinema. It will also provide a powerful new infrastructure to support the take-up of Eutelsat’s Tooway broadband service

    http://www.broadbandtvnews.com/2010/11/22/eutelsat-ka-sat-ready-for-take-off/
    .


  • Registered Users Posts: 718 ✭✭✭12 element


    Apogee wrote: »
    ILS Ka-Sat blog is up and running.



    http://www.ilslaunch.com/ka-sat-blog


    Exciting stuff! Anyone planning on getting a KA-LNB early on for this, or is there any point?


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    No point before April.

    I'll publish "simple to make" horn for a VSAT flange type ka-LNB in Feb/March.

    There is fixed polarisation on entire spot, so a fixed single polarisation rectangular feed will work.

    Unless you have a spectrum analyser and DVB-S2 BER meter, even the existing Ka you can pick up in Ireland from other positions have no TV, only data, so you have nothing for a receiver to see.

    see http://www.techtir.ie/how-to/make-sat-lnb-feed-horn

    I've run out of attachment space here!

    Probably I'll design it out of single sided PCB that can be easily cut and soldered, as that is easier than folds.

    But I'll test one made from lidl coffee tin cut with scissors and folded, as it's not very big.

    Then you pop a "flexible rubberish membrane" over the small horn to keep water and spiders out :)

    In days gone by the BBC OB people use to supply the RTE OB people... :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Astra vs Eutelsat Ka-band dispute continues

    Three weeks from now, just before the Christmas holiday, will see a Russian rocket launching Eutelsat’s Ka-Sat, a wonderful piece of satellite engineering complexity that will provide copious two-way broadband connectivity to Europe, North Africa and the Middle East. At 6.1 tonnes in weight it is one of the heaviest satellites ever launched and will be the backbone of Eutelsat’s bandwidth capacity expansion, especially in terms of internet access for the regions’ ‘unconnected’.

    But the satellite represents a major difference of view between Eutelsat and SES Astra. And the difference – politely – boiled over at a EuroConsult conference on Nov 24 in a platform discussion between Michel de Rosen, Eutelsat’s CEO, and Ferdinand Kayser, president of Astra. “Questions remain open on Ka-band,” Kayser said, explaining that its strategy was to add incremental Ka-band capacity to new satellites, as demand grew. “We are in the business of operating satellites that last for 15 years in orbit,” Kayser added. “We must be able to prove to our shareholders that these will be profitable each time we launch. We have been more prudent, or less courageous perhaps, than our competitor Eutelsat.”

    Mr de Rosen immediately interjected with an implied ‘No you haven’t!’, saying “That’s interesting, we think it’s you who are the most audacious, or courageous, by investing in a Ka-band constellation. It’s called O3b is it not?”

    De Rosen is right. While Astra’s philosophy on its European fleet has been to take a cautious approach to Ka-band capacity for broadband-by-satellite, it is nevertheless backing O3b, a low Earth orbiting satellite constellation designed to serve “the Other 3 billion” of unconnected people living more or less in the tropics in about 150 countries either side of the Equator – and representing 70% of the world’s population.

    Indeed, on November 26 investment bankers Morgan Stanley issued a note to investors suggesting an initial valuation of $4bn for the – as yet – unlaunched system – and saying that SES’ modest €150m stake in the project is worth about €3 a share for shareholders. “We expect initial demand for O3b’s Ka-band bandwidth to be very strong, particularly from telcos looking to extend 3G wireless coverage,” says the bank. “The last recorded backlog of $600m is now likely higher given several announced deals. We expect this to ramp up as the first launch in 2012 approaches. Given the provision of fibre is often prohibitively expensive O3b provides a low-cost (50-80% below current wholesale prices), faster and more practical solution for IP trunking.”

    It is, perhaps, a case of ‘you pays your money and takes your chance’. Eutelsat is backing its local market for this considerable expansion in available bandwidth, while SES is looking to participate in a significant expansion in its services and fresh coverage to new markets. Time will tell as to who’s vision is sound.
    http://www.advanced-television.tv/index.php/2010/11/26/astra-vs-eutelsat-ka-band-dispute-continues/


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Astra famously pinched 28.2 from Eutelsat at Sky's suggestion. 28.2E was for Central Europe, never for UK & Ireland.

    Since SES-Astra and Eutelsat are the biggest pair of competitors in Europe and the past history a row isn't surprising.

    Also the Budget Astra2Connect Two Way Internet has turned out to be poorer strategy than Eutelsat/Viasat partnership on Tooway (13E has a test platform).

    Last night Avanti became a Satellite operator instead of just a reseller of Astra, Eutelsat and others with successful launch of Hylas-1, part funded by ESA and Miltary.
    Maybe about 1/10th of Ka-Sat capacity.
    HYLAS1map.jpg

    http://www.arianespace.com/news-mission-update/2010/739.asp

    http://www.techtir.ie/blog/watty/hylas-launch

    Note that other than as a Internet competitor and also using Ka-Band, Avanti's Hylas 1 is nothing to do with Ka-Sat or Saorsat. The UK/Ireland Ka-Band spots are too big for RTE. This also suggests that Internet capacity for Ireland is at best 1/2 of Ka-Sat and could be a lot less. We don't know the capacity of Hylas-1 Ka-spots.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1 hawhee


    Sorry to jump back a few months, but I was looking at getting one of those wavefrontier T55 dishes, to pick up 28E, 9E, and maybe a few others from the western seaboard. I followed a few of the earlier links to some german sites and was wondering if many of the advertised Wave Toroidal T55 dishes are actually replicas? I auto-translated something german tech review on the ciao.de link that said to beware that the replicas aren't up to specs (arcs and LNB spacings were mentioned). Would like to hear if there might be anything to be cautious about with getting these dishes? Thanks.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    You don't need a Wavefrontier for 9E to 28E. only for wider difference

    See
    http://www.saortv.info/satellite-saorsat/saorsat-reception/

    They are very heavy and expensive. Only worth it if you wanted 28E to 5W or similar, and you would need the T90 for that.

    A Triax bar on a Triax TD 78 or 88 or 90/95 is cheaper and fine for 9E + 28E.

    However, it's best to not spend any money on Saorsat till April and we know the Satellite is successfully launched and commissioned:
    Progress http://www.techtir.ie/blog/watty/ka-sat-countdown


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty




  • Registered Users Posts: 3,761 ✭✭✭Apogee


    Dec. 19 Proton • KA-SAT
    Launch time: 2151 GMT (4:21 p.m. EST)
    Launch site: Baikonur Cosmodrome, Kazakhstan

    An International Launch Services Proton rocket with a Breeze M upper stage will deploy the KA-SAT communications satellite for Eutelsat to provide broadband Internet services to Europe. Delayed from November.

    http://spaceflightnow.com/tracking/index.html


  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    Khrunichev has completed the first cycle of Breeze M tests to make this Upper Stage available for rollout to the fueling shed where Breeze M’s high pressure tanks will be pressurized.

    The Breeze M unit was moved earlier today to the fueling area located in the immediate proximity to 92A-50. Tank pressurization is scheduled to begin tomorrow.

    Once fueling operations are completed, the Breeze M will be moved back to the ITF where it will be reinstalled on the test bed for the continuation of standalone check-outs.
    via http://www.ilslaunch.com/news-112510

    Also some discussion here http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1393535
    and here http://www.digitalspy.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=1298375


  • Registered Users Posts: 369 ✭✭weehamster


    Proton launch failure dooms Glonass navigation satellites
    err...not good. This will delay the Ka-Sat launch for a few months at least until they know exactly what happened. :(


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,102 ✭✭✭Stinicker


    weehamster wrote: »
    Proton launch failure dooms Glonass navigation satellites
    err...not good. This will delay the Ka-Sat launch for a few months at least until they know exactly what happened. :(

    Better it than the Ka-Sat itself, if Ka-Sat is a failure will RTE have to go FTV?


  • Registered Users Posts: 11,325 ✭✭✭✭Tony


    Stinicker wrote: »
    Better it than the Ka-Sat itself, if Ka-Sat is a failure will RTE have to go FTV?

    No theres planty of time before anlogue switch off and RTE maintain this is only for the 2% of viewers who do not have terrestrial coverage.

    Desktop PC Boards discount code on https://www.satellite.ie/ is boards.ie



  • Registered Users Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    If Ka-Sat fails they will try again in late 2012 / early 2013, fine for RTE NL.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,035 ✭✭✭rlogue


    According to What Satellite RTE are yet to sign any contract with Eutelsat on Ka-Sat.

    Peculiar since there's been such a song and dance about Saorsat being on the 9E position.

    Would Eutelsat be now in a position where they can extract what they like from RTE?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 15,473 ✭✭✭✭The Cush


    rlogue wrote: »
    According to What Satellite RTE are yet to sign any contract with Eutelsat on Ka-Sat.

    Peculiar since there's been such a song and dance about Saorsat being on the 9E position.

    Would Eutelsat be now in a position where they can extract what they like from RTE?

    The only thing I've read on What Satellite is "no deal for TV has yet been announced between RTÉ and Eutelsat".

    RTÉ have said very little about Saorsat since the 14th July last, in fact what they did announce would probably fit on an A4 page.

    A few things they did say publically is that Saorsat would not be available from 28 deg. East, Ireland will have dedicated Ka spot beam and a "hybrid" dish could be used to receive both Saorsat and freesat.

    I'd guess provisional contracts are in place and we'll see no official announcement from either party until the satellite is safely in position.


This discussion has been closed.
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