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Ireland has the highest proportion of under occupied dwellings in the EU.

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  • #32
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Graham wrote: »
    70% of the population live in under occupied dwellings.
    70% of the population are not septuagenarians.

    Exactly.

    I think it's how this statistic it's measured. When you look at the details it's weighted to favor poorer economies and or highly density in cities and urbanisation in general. Also a long history of same. I don't think Ireland ticks any of these boxes.


  • #33
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    I see no weighting

    under-occupied dwellings meaning that the dwellings were deemed to be too large, in terms of excess rooms and more specifically bedrooms, for the needs of the occupant household.


  • #34
    Nobelium
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭Nobelium


    Is it any wonder when the monocity policy is to close down as much as possible in the rest of Ireland and move everyone and everything to Dublin.
    And then people wonder why there is a Dublin housing crisis.
    Not good for Dublin or Ireland.


  • #35
    BarryD2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    There's plenty of unoccupied or under occupied dwellings in rural parts of Ireland, including many small towns and villages. Are these slanting the statistics? Though rural parts of say France are also becoming sparsely populated.

    Still in relation to Ireland, no reason why there shouldn't be a more rigorous resettlement policy for people who require LA housing.


  • #36
    Sonny noggs
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,523 ✭✭✭Sonny noggs


    Not helped by social housing being allocated for life. Couple with kids given 3 or 4 bedroom house, kids move out in their 20’s, couple remain in the house for decades.


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  • #37
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Much of the under occupancy is in Dublin and not in Social housing.

    This is by no means a social housing issue.

    It's a housing issue.


  • #38
    Nobelium
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,093 ✭✭✭Nobelium


    BarryD2 wrote: »
    Still in relation to Ireland, no reason why there shouldn't be a more rigorous resettlement policy for people who require LA housing.

    That's treating symptoms not the cause, something we already do too much of.
    Cause and effect. We should be directing most of our efforts to addressing causes, not effects.


  • #39
    margo321
    Registered Users Posts: 185 ✭✭margo321


    I'd like to see the house or rather houses owned by politicians. how they can afford them should be highlighted. fat cats. cheek of them to tell normal people how to.live.


  • #40
    BarryD2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,732 ✭✭✭BarryD2


    Graham wrote: »
    Much of the under occupancy is in Dublin and not in Social housing.

    There are swathes of the city between the canals which could be cleared in favour of apartment blocks. Regeneration seems to be part and parcel of cities in North America, why not here? Who has the will to do it?


  • #41
    TSQ
    Registered Users Posts: 283 ✭✭TSQ


    Nobelium wrote: »
    That's treating symptoms not the cause, something we already do too much of.
    Cause and effect. We should be directing most of our efforts to addressing causes, not effects.

    Not understanding what you mean.. surely 3 bed family home over time becoming 3 bed elderly widow’s home = under occupancy = cause/contributes to lack of supply for families in high demand areas (and with social housing, the rent also reduces in line with the occupancy rate, unlike in the real world). Failure to move the social tenant to a small flat means even more 3 bed social homes would have to be built, rather than recycling the existing supply in a rational manner.


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  • #42
    lalababa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,726 ✭✭✭lalababa


    Our 4 biggest cities especially Dublin are just humungous suburbs. When the kids fly the nest youre left with just mom & dad. Alot of these moms & dad's especially if they are comfortable have a holiday home in the country.Terrible planning in the cities Joe....ha..ha. I live in Cork where it can take an hour just to drive across the river, and even MORE suburbs are spouting like mushrooms on the outsirts. The 'plan' seems to be build more suburbs and be damned.Many smaller towns in Ireland are ' dying on their feet' especially anything away from coastal tourism. You know the typical one long street of misery towns. Nobody is moving into the town houses. Most I know either try for a LO house or build a new big house in a field if they have a decent income. I'm not sure what they have against the old town houses.?? Down in West cork & Kerry I was doing abit of canvassing type work a few winter's ago and the amount of unocuupied holiday homes was an eye-opener. I'm sure things are similar all along the coast.
    What's to be done. ??


  • #43
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    TSQ wrote: »
    Not understanding what you mean.. surely 3 bed family home over time becoming 3 bed elderly widow’s home = under occupancy = cause/contributes to lack of supply for families in high demand areas

    Applies to all types of housing.


  • #44
    Grab All Association
    Registered Users Posts: 3,917 ✭✭✭Grab All Association


    Sonny noggs wrote: »
    Not helped by social housing being allocated for life. Couple with kids given 3 or 4 bedroom house, kids move out in their 20’s, couple remain in the house for decades.

    It’s the councils own making here. Let’s take the council estate up the road from me as an example of what should be done to combat this. Btw they were built in the 1970s.

    2 bedroom homes which were allocated to the mid-aged to elderly single/couple and 3-4 bedroom houses built for couples with children. When the children would move out and upon the death of an aged neighbour, the couple would move over to occupy the smaller house, reducing their weekly rent and freeing up a 3/4 bedroom house. rThis is still happening to this day.

    Vs

    LA Housing estates built since the 1980s are a minimum of 3 bedrooms with no option to downsize or any 2 bed houses in the locality. It’s unreasonable to expect people in these estate to move out of the area.


  • #45
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,008 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Long retirement doesn't provide a incentive to trade down, because a 100k lump sum would only provide maybe 300/mo in annuity income.

    The main incentive is cashflow, and that would be helped by a chunky property tax and more active management of social housing.

    The problem with any attempt to tackle this issue is that 70% don't want it so it's electoral suicide. So we get hand wringing and inaction.


  • #46
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭[Deleted User]


    People don’t want to live in shoe boxes and are fully entitled to live in houses that are the size they wish. I really think some here are on a different planet sometimes when they appear to think otherwise. Just because there isn’t someone full time in a room doesn’t mean it’s not needed. A lot of people need rooms for when family call home, grand kids call or other visitors call for example.

    Planning our own build at the moment at we would be planning in at least one and most likely two rooms above what will be occupied at anyone time due to wanting lots of space for my wife’s family who are from a few hours away and will want to be able to come and stay regularly.

    It’s similar for most homes where the children have moved out too, if they aren’t living local their children and/or grandchildren will want to come and stay regularly so the space is needed if if not fully occupied. On top of that why on earth would someone want to sell their family home and downsize after spending years getting it to the way they want and all the memories it’s holds.

    These type of stats are meaningless imo as they totally ignore the reality of how people want to live. Any suggestion at trying to tax people out of their home should be met with a very solid brick wall and I’d hope people would be on the streets protesting at even the suggestion of it.


  • #47
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    lalababa wrote: »
    Our 4 biggest cities especially Dublin are just humungous suburbs. When the kids fly the nest youre left with just mom & dad. Alot of these moms & dad's especially if they are comfortable have a holiday home in the country.Terrible planning in the cities Joe....ha..ha. I live in Cork where it can take an hour just to drive across the river, and even MORE suburbs are spouting like mushrooms on the outsirts. The 'plan' seems to be build more suburbs and be damned.Many smaller towns in Ireland are ' dying on their feet' especially anything away from coastal tourism. You know the typical one long street of misery towns. Nobody is moving into the town houses. Most I know either try for a LO house or build a new big house in a field if they have a decent income. I'm not sure what they have against the old town houses.?? Down in West cork & Kerry I was doing abit of canvassing type work a few winter's ago and the amount of unocuupied holiday homes was an eye-opener. I'm sure things are similar all along the coast.
    What's to be done. ??

    When I was trying to find house to rent in that area, so many holiday rentals lying empty all winter as you have seen. They say it is easier and more profitable doing this than renting the year round.


  • #48
    Graces7
    Registered Users Posts: 32,634 ✭✭✭✭Graces7


    TSQ wrote: »
    Not understanding what you mean.. surely 3 bed family home over time becoming 3 bed elderly widow’s home = under occupancy = cause/contributes to lack of supply for families in high demand areas (and with social housing, the rent also reduces in line with the occupancy rate, unlike in the real world). Failure to move the social tenant to a small flat means even more 3 bed social homes would have to be built, rather than recycling the existing supply in a rational manner.

    Old folk are not chess pieces.


  • #49
    STB.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    Graham wrote: »
    Who said people were selfish?

    The fact is we have the highest rates, if not the highest rate of under-occupancy in the EU. There's no point pretending otherwise.

    What that tells us is we're using property inefficiently.

    FYI under occupancy is also a significant issue in LA housing.

    Is that what it tells us Graham?

    The bolded part above - is this statement in relation to social housing or the lack of affordable housing or both ? Because that's not what those statistics tell you.

    We are now at the point that we believe statistics in isolation without context. Are we now at the stage where we believe these headlines or are they a smokescreen for years of bad planning and inertia. What are the differing factors that these stats don't account for ?

    The historic culture (the desire to want to own a home) is different in Ireland vs those that don't (the vast majority of Europe).

    Population centres and housing density. Outside of Dublin we have situations whereby the large majority of land is traditionally agricultural, with one off housing etc. We are an island.

    Overcrowding is actually a huge issue in some parts of Europe (one sixth) as a result of the differing culture and environment.

    The stats are meaningless comparatively, but I do understand how and why these figures are leaked into the media as some form of answer to a housing crisis that is not caused by "inefficiency" by those supposedly living in dwellings that are too big for them! The ability to buy a home is dictated by a market and ones income.

    I'd also like to see figures specifically for Dublin alone.


  • #50
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,008 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    Graces7 wrote: »
    Old folk are not chess pieces.
    It's a reasonable condition of having other people pay for your housing.


  • #51
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    A couple of years old but these figures show why it's not a social housing issue.

    Less than 10% of housing is social housing.

    1,147,552 | owner occupied
    143,178 | local authority
    326,493 | private rented

    Given that 70% of the population are not retired, it's not an 'old people' issue.

    Those looking in the direction of social housing/elderly may have to start to look closer to home.


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  • #52
    Lumen
    Registered Users Posts: 31,008 ✭✭✭✭Lumen


    How is under occupation defined?

    My last house was a 125sqm "4" bed but the box room was used as an office.

    Does that count as under occupied?


  • #53
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    STB. wrote: »
    I do understand how and why these figures are leaked into the media

    they weren't 'leaked' anywhere. It's part of the publicly available Eurostat publications.

    As part of the statistics there are pretty clear explanations for over-occupied/under-occupied.


  • #54
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Lumen wrote: »
    How is under occupation defined?

    For statistical purposes, a dwelling is defined as under-occupied if the household living in it has at its disposal more than the minimum number of rooms considered adequate, and equal to:

    one room for the household;
    one room per couple in the household;
    one room for each single person aged 18 or more;
    one room per pair of single people of the same gender between 12 and 17 years of age;
    one room for each single person between 12 and 17 years of age and not included in the previous category;
    one room per pair of children under 12 years of age.


  • #55
    seasidedub
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭seasidedub


    Are the so called "under occupied houses" deemed to be so by virtue of number of rooms or by square metres?

    In Ireland a "bedroom" can be so small you can barely fit a small single bed into it never mind storage space of any description.

    I live in a 4 bed house of 130 sqm, my previous home was a 2 bed flat of 110 sqm. The point being you might have 3 beds and be one person or a couple, but the other rooms would be needed for storage. Irish houses are still not being build with good storage. I'm in the process of moving and even brand new houses I view have little or no storage. Nowhere to put shoes or coats in the typical narrow halls. Master bedrooms with one wardrobe - most people have far more clothes than one half of a shared wardrobe these days.

    Never mind adult kids/grandkids wanting to stay from time to time, never mind people not wanting to leave a community etc.

    If you own the house and can pay the bills, it's nobody's business and certainly not the government's. If people really want to go down that road of government determining how many rooms you need is be wary. If it's a social house, then yeah, you haven't paid for it so you should be downsized.


  • #56
    overkill602
    Registered Users Posts: 267 ✭✭overkill602


    mortgage paid homes are not benefited by the state....
    under occupied social housing should be of more prominence they are free most with rent paid by sw and close to service and supports it is here we should try to properly maximize for those who want more/bigger free homes that will need those same service supports.
    gifts are harder to take back so the social gravy train will not be stopped only for those who manage to board.


  • #57
    STB.
    Registered Users Posts: 5,380 ✭✭✭STB.


    Graham wrote: »
    I see no weighting

    under-occupied dwellings meaning that the dwellings were deemed to be too large, in terms of excess rooms and more specifically bedrooms, for the needs of the occupant household.


    I know that government policy has been to abdicate its social housing responsibilities and push more and more controls onto private dwelling owners.


    Are we now at the stage whereby the government should dictate what size homes people should live in. Surely this are private decisions dictated by means and the property market.

    Or should we adopt some form of urban housing strategy that you might find in a communist country ?

    Or how about the Prague model ?

    1920px-Panel%C3%A1ky_Ko%C5%A1%C3%ADk.jpg
    Graham wrote: »
    they weren't 'leaked' anywhere. It's part of the publicly available Eurostat publications.

    As part of the statistics there are pretty clear explanations for over-occupied/under-occupied.

    Who provides the statistics to Eurostat and how are Irish figures compiled ?

    The relevance of this story appearing in the press at a time when we have a housing crisis is suspect. There is no context to the article.

    Statistically speaking what percentage of governmental advisory and press staff these days are ex journalists ? :)


  • #58
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    seasidedub wrote: »
    If you own the house and can pay the bills, it's nobody's business and certainly not the government's.

    Discussion isn't about government, government proposals or government policy.

    There is something amiss with how we plan, build and utilise housing.

    Crying about 'housing crisis' while pretending abnormally high under-occupancy (across housing tenures) are not part of the problem would be a bit daft.


  • #59
    seasidedub
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭seasidedub


    And by the way - this idea that the desire to own ones home is unique or special to Ireland is rubbish. I've lived in several European countries and never met a single person who did not express a desire to at some stage own their own home. They may rent for longer etc, but most eventually buy. You can look at eurostats home ownership statistics and see a number of EU countries with higher levels of home ownership than Ireland.

    Vienna in the news recently a lot, about social housing there. Doesn't mention that loads of Viennese even the ones renting from the city own a house in the mountains or by a lake and often retire there, ditto Finland - they all have weekend homes, but may have a "city" apartment on cheap local authority rent.

    You have to understand what really happens in other countries before believing the lefty hype on the radio..


  • #60
    Graham
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,642 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    STB. wrote: »
    government policy has been to abdicate its social housing responsibilities

    Social housing is less than 10% of all housing. It's not a social housing issue.


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  • #61
    seasidedub
    Registered Users Posts: 234 ✭✭seasidedub


    <MONSTER QUOTE SNIP>

    And again - is under occupancy on the basis of rooms or square metres? Makes a big difference. A bedroom I Ireland can be smaller than the legal definition of a room in, say, Germany.


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