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UK's private school students are being "persecuted akin to the Jewish people"

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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Aegir wrote: »
    I couldn't see any statistic that says that, only that 58% come from state schools. It may be the case that it is 42% of oxford students come from independent schools, but from what I can see, it is an assumption.

    The Sutton Trust report is a fascinating read. https://www.suttontrust.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/12/AccesstoAdvantage-2018.pdf

    It is indeed Aegir.

    Here's Oxford's own statistics that offer a clearer view. It seems 41.8% of all admissions to Oxford in 2017 come from independent schools.


  • Posts: 13,712 ✭✭✭✭[Deleted User]


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    What way does college selection work in the UK? CAO system here stops favoritism based on schools directly.
    UCAS. I don't know if it's changed now, but when I was applying, the application mainly consisted of a personal statement, a statement from a referee (usually a teacher), and a list of your anticipated grades, stated by each of your teachers.

    Students are then rejected or given an offer, usually on the condition that they achieve certain grades (in Oxbridge, you were required to have all A's at higher level, they might have tolerated the odd B if it wasn't relevant to your chosen field.

    It's a system that is vulnerable to bias, but I guess the UK can handle it fairly well because it has a population of 66 million. Ireland is just too small for a similar system (or the humans operating it) to be trustworthy.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    That gives you some say in admissions, it doesn’t give you any say in how your taxes are spent. That’s decided by politicians, and sitting on an equality board at a University isn’t going to have all that much of an influence in who is or isn’t admitted to University when the main criteria for admissions is still those people wealthy enough to be able to afford to send their children to Universities.

    It’s the trainee politicians in the SU will be deciding in the future how much funding is given to equality and diversity programmes over how much funding is given to scientific research. That Government funded “equality board” you’re sitting on for example -


    Athena SWAN (Scientific Women’s Academic Network) is a charter established and managed by the UK Equality Challenge Unit (now part of Advance HE) in 2005 that recognises and celebrates good practices in higher education and research institutions towards the advancement of gender equality: representation, progression and success for all.

    ...

    An exploratory study of women's and men's perceptions of Athena SWAN was broadly positive and highlighted the significance of government funding being linked to SWAN awards, but it also highlighted the limitations of whether the process can change longstanding and entrenched issues in society.


    Athena SWAN


    All that being said of course, when I hear anyone come out with the expression “challenging privilege”, it’s the wealthy SU types who I was referring to such as these examples -

    White males' should be BANNED from speaking during university classes so women and transgender students are more willing to contribute to discussions, seminar suggests

    Pictured: Diversity officer who banned whites from her 'anti-racism' event at British university wiping away fake tear in front of 'no white men' sign

    Jack clearly some of those you mentioned aren't pleasant people and some even racist. You can usually differentiate those from people who really care because they just want attention.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,458 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Jack clearly some of those you mentioned aren't pleasant people and some even racist. You can usually differentiate those from people who really care because they just want attention.


    Absolutely, and one of the easiest ways to differentiate between people who really care and people who just want attention is when they start using words like “privilege”.

    It’s difficult to feel any sympathy of course for anyone in who complains that the social group they identify with are being squeezed out of Universities because other groups in society have more “privilege”. That’s not merit based equality, it’s identity politics, and Universities or Government funded bodies which employ such tactics have never given me the impression that they actually cared all that much about creating equal opportunities in education for everyone. They always appear to be more interested in how they could increase their funding to justify their existence.


  • Registered Users Posts: 410 ✭✭AlphabetCards


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    But unfortunately the studies show that private school students do worse when they get to university. You're saying that universities shouldn't seek the best students and minimise the under performers?

    That's not the metric though, is it? The question is about meeting matriculation. Any figures on the above statement?
    I know it's mad right. They feel their kids are entitled to superior treatment based on class and the ones who challenge that are labelled as discriminating against class.

    They are entitled to feel however they like. Fact of the matter is, that although the Head of Stowe is over the top with his analogy, you are literally proving his point. If state school kids do better academically for matriculation AND they struggle less at university, then were exactly is the privilege? Other than the fact that they pay for their education. If anything we should be making places for private school students and putting schemes in place to ensure that they are not finding the university experience overwhelming.

    What is it that you have against private schools anyway? The money parents pay usually goes towards sports facilities and music equipment anyway.
    I'm a member on our organisation's Athena Swan board in a UK university. We deal with gender, class and race discrimination and ensuring equality of opportunity.

    Mmmmhmmmm.


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  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    They are entitled to feel however they like. Fact of the matter is, that although the Head of Stowe is over the top with his analogy, you are literally proving his point. If state school kids do better academically for matriculation AND they struggle less at university, then were exactly is the privilege? Other than the fact that they pay for their education. If anything we should be making places for private school students and putting schemes in place to ensure that they are not finding the university experience overwhelming.

    That is his (very badly made) point. People don't get in to Oxbridge just because they went to Eton, they get in because they met the entrance criteria. The fact that coming from Eton gives them an advantage is relevant, but they still need to get straight As in their A levels.

    If you go to a Private school, there is probably more expectation on you to go on to Oxbridge and more chance of you applying, where as Crinkley Bottom Secondary modern probably doesn't push you as hard, or as displayed here, gives people the message that only toffs go to Oxford or Cambridge, so the reverse snobbery works against them.

    As Brampton Manor school demonstrated, if you make the kids think that getting in to Oxbridge is well within their grasp, then they will go for it.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/education-46900154


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,344 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    silverharp wrote: »
    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    The US system is even worse with the way it selects pupils. Such a corrupt and exclusionary model.

    Their SAT's are a reasonable approach? also the US maybe entering a peak in terms of collage attendance, its beginning to be seen as a joke and an expensive one.
    They don't use that to get into college. It is individual applications to colleges. Without extra curricular work you won't get into college. My nephews went through this and SATs are a small part of it. There is also a ridiculous scholarship model so no one truly pays full fees.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,890 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Privately educated pupils in the UK are also being accused of dominating the top jobs and stifling social mobility


    I wonder why.....

    https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/cabinet-ministers-private-education-reshuffle-public-schools-state-educated-uk-public-theresa-may-a8151106.html


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    Odhinn wrote: »

    I guess normal people, like maybe a bus driver's son, or a vicar's daughter would never make it in the UK.:rolleyes:

    Maybe they should move to Dublin, land of equality.

    Well, where kids from a Dublin fee paying school are equally likely to get in to the top universities. http://trinitynews.ie/2016/12/students-from-fee-paying-secondary-schools-are-4-times-more-likely-to-get-a-place-in-trinity/

    but **** everyone else.
    In addition, there are more first year students in Trinity from private schools in Dublin (563 pupils) than there are from all schools in the provinces of Munster, Connaught and Ulster (Donegal, Monaghan & Cavan) combined (395 pupils).

    but yeah, those nasty Brits eh nodin?


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    That's not the metric though, is it? The question is about meeting matriculation. Any figures on the above statement?

    No offence AB but it's a very dim simplification to assume the question of education boils down to who meets matriculation. It's about sending the right people to university. People who are the most academically gifted, not those who are simply pushed to passing GCSEs. The research states that private school students with the same grades as state school students won't be as academically confident when they get into university. So in other words from a scenario where we have two A scoring pupils, one state and one private, it would be better to pick the state school pupil.

    Research? Sure, there are numerous studies with the same conclusion. Here's one of my favourite, a study from Cambridge uni which actually leads back to your original erroneous assumption about matriculation:
    Students who went to a private school are significantly less likely to get a good degree than state school students with similar A-level results, says a study conducted by the University of Cambridge’s examinations arm.

    Research by Cambridge Assessment found that, in Russell Group universities, private school-leavers were about a third less likely to achieve a first or a 2:1 than state school students with similar prior attainment.

    And here:
    State schools students are more likely to become high-flying doctors because they are used to battling against the odds, a study has found.

    Medical students are nearly twice as likely to graduate top of their class if they were educated in the state sector rather than at fee-paying schools, according to research by the University of Aberdeen. It comes despite the fact students from private institutions score slightly higher in the entry tests.
    They are entitled to feel however they like. Fact of the matter is, that although the Head of Stowe is over the top with his analogy, you are literally proving his point.

    So I'm questioning the most academically able students are getting into university and you think I'm proving this lunatic's point about jews and the protocols of Zion?
    If state school kids do better academically for matriculation AND they struggle less at university, then were exactly is the privilege?

    Are you joking? Nearly half of Oxford's undergrads were from private schools. The same goes for a lot of the Russell group universities. Matriculation should be picking from the brighter students. It's not at the moment. The two-tier education system is masking true ability.
    Other than the fact that they pay for their education. If anything we should be making places for private school students and putting schemes in place to ensure that they are not finding the university experience overwhelming.

    Or we could try a crazy idea and actually let the students in who are best able for the course. You might think they're owed a place because they paid money to school but most people don't.
    What is it that you have against private schools anyway? The money parents pay usually goes towards sports facilities and music equipment anyway.

    As explained I dislike the two-tier system because it's not giving us an accurate representation of who the best students are.
    Mmmmhmmmm
    .

    Are you coming on to me?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Aegir wrote: »
    I guess normal people, like maybe a bus driver's son, or a vicar's daughter would never make it in the UK.:rolleyes:

    Maybe they should move to Dublin, land of equality.

    Well, where kids from a Dublin fee paying school are equally likely to get in to the top universities. http://trinitynews.ie/2016/12/students-from-fee-paying-secondary-schools-are-4-times-more-likely-to-get-a-place-in-trinity/

    but **** everyone else.



    but yeah, those nasty Brits eh nodin?

    Please don't turn it into Irish vs English. Not everything happens to be about that. I actually live in England and America so me commenting on these things isn't a dig at English people.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,890 ✭✭✭Odhinn


    Aegir wrote: »
    I guess normal people, like maybe a bus driver's son, or a vicar's daughter would never make it in the UK.:rolleyes:

    Maybe they should move to Dublin, land of equality.

    Well, where kids from a Dublin fee paying school are equally likely to get in to the top universities. http://trinitynews.ie/2016/12/students-from-fee-paying-secondary-schools-are-4-times-more-likely-to-get-a-place-in-trinity/

    but **** everyone else.



    but yeah, those nasty Brits eh nodin?


    Where did I single out the Brits?...you might stop projecting your nonsense onto me.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Odhinn wrote: »

    It is a valid point though Odhinn. It's also interesting that the studies suggest state school pupils do better once they leave the school environment. It sort of explains Brexit to be honest.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,458 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Or we could try a crazy idea and actually let the students in who are best able for the course. You might think they're owed a place because they paid money to school but most people don't.


    The only people who imagine it’s not fair that people are entitled to what they pay for, are people who can’t afford to pay for what everyone else is paying for.

    Permitting students entry into Universities on the basis of their academic ability rather than their ability to fund equality and diversity programmes would eventually lead to there being no funding available for those programmes which provide a means for a small few to feel better about themselves by funding someone else’s education with someone else’s money.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    The only people who imagine it’s not fair that people are entitled to what they pay for, are people who can’t afford to pay for what everyone else is paying for.

    Permitting students entry into Universities on the basis of their academic ability rather than their ability to fund equality and diversity programmes would eventually lead to there being no funding available for those programmes which provide a means for a small few to feel better about themselves by funding someone else’s education with someone else’s money.

    Jack that isn't anything at all like how funding works. I don't get you point to be honest. Students in the UK get loans for their education anyway. As do Americans.


  • Posts: 0 [Deleted User]


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Please don't turn it into Irish vs English. Not everything happens to be about that. I actually live in England and America so me commenting on these things isn't a dig at English people.

    I wasn't having a dig at you though, it was directed at a poster who likes to regularly make snide comments.
    steddyeddy wrote: »
    No offence AB but it's a very dim simplification to assume the question of education boils down to who meets matriculation. It's about sending the right people to university. People who are the most academically gifted, not those who are simply pushed to passing GCSEs. The research states that private school students with the same grades as state school students won't be as academically confident when they get into university. So in other words from a scenario where we have two A scoring pupils, one state and one private, it would be better to pick the state school pupil.

    What you are proposing is the exact opposite of what is happening now. Instead of preference being given to kids from private schools, kids from state schools are given preference. How does that solve anything?
    steddyeddy wrote: »
    It is a valid point though Odhinn. It's also interesting that the studies suggest state school pupils do better once they leave the school environment. It sort of explains Brexit to be honest.

    how does it explain Brexit?


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,458 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Jack that isn't anything at all like how funding works. I don't get you point to be honest. Students in the UK get loans for their education anyway. As do Americans.


    It’s exactly how funding works! Where do you imagine the money is coming from to pay for the education of students you would rather see admitted to University seeing as they generally can’t afford to pay for their own University education?


  • Registered Users Posts: 410 ✭✭AlphabetCards


    a study from Cambridge uni which actually leads back to your original erroneous assumption about matriculation:

    You've read me wrong, I agreed with you.
    So I'm questioning the most academically able students are getting into university and you think I'm proving this lunatic's point about jews and the protocols of Zion?

    Again, you've read me wrong. I've pointed out he was a bit hysterical with the way he went about it, but my point (which agrees somewhat with Aegir) is that nothing is solved by incorrectly using data to discriminate against any group of students.
    The research states that private school students with the same grades as state school students won't be as academically confident when they get into university. So in other words from a scenario where we have two A scoring pupils, one state and one private, it would be better to pick the state school pupil.

    Or, why don't we take them in equal measure and provide help to the ones who need it? If this was about women, BAME students or LGBT struggling in a similar manner you would not be as fast to suggest we just take on students who would handle it better.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    You've read me wrong, I agreed with you.



    Again, you've read me wrong. I've pointed out he was a bit hysterical with the way he went about it, but my point (which agrees somewhat with Aegir) is that nothing is solved by incorrectly using data to discriminate against any group of students.



    Or, why don't we take them in equal measure and provide help to the ones who need it? If this was about women, BAME students or LGBT struggling in a similar manner you would not be as fast to suggest we just take on students who would handle it better.

    Actually I would. I don't agree with quotas, but right now we're having a situation were students are being selected based on a system which doesn't take school into account. All the evidence points to the fact that school matters.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    It’s exactly how funding works! Where do you imagine the money is coming from to pay for the education of students you would rather see admitted to University seeing as they generally can’t afford to pay for their own University education?

    Well with the loan systems students pay back the cost of their own education.


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  • Well, if I were paying €40,000 per annum* in fees for my child's education I'd probably feel persecuted if some pleb had the temerity to say they should no longer have a privileged place in English society either. It's bad enough losing the right to send all the cadet branches to far flung corners of the Empire to lord it over the native savages, but losing that place at home in England over the English plebs? Enough is enough!

    Approximately 85% of all Irish students, on the other hand, can legitimately claim to have been educated in private schools without paying fees at all. Let's all thank that private institution known as the Roman Catholic Church for that bragging right.

    *Stowe's boarding fees are a comparatively small €14,500 per annum, which is close enough to the crèche fee per child per annum for many Irish parents so I'm decidedly unimpressed with this "elite" talk.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,458 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Well with the loan systems students pay back the cost of their own education.

    I’ve yet to hear of students from impoverished backgrounds qualifying for student loans, and those students who do manage to qualify for student loans often finish their education in deep debt with no means to pay back their loans.


    UK student loan debt soars to more than £100bn


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    No offence AB but it's a very dim simplification to assume the question of education boils down to who meets matriculation. It's about sending the right people to university. People who are the most academically gifted, not those who are simply pushed to passing GCSEs. The research states that private school students with the same grades as state school students won't be as academically confident when they get into university. So in other words from a scenario where we have two A scoring pupils, one state and one private, it would be better to pick the state school pupil.

    Research? Sure, there are numerous studies with the same conclusion. Here's one of my favourite, a study from Cambridge uni which actually leads back to your original erroneous assumption about matriculation:



    And here:





    So I'm questioning the most academically able students are getting into university and you think I'm proving this lunatic's point about jews and the protocols of Zion?



    Are you joking? Nearly half of Oxford's undergrads were from private schools. The same goes for a lot of the Russell group universities. Matriculation should be picking from the brighter students. It's not at the moment. The two-tier education system is masking true ability.



    Or we could try a crazy idea and actually let the students in who are best able for the course. You might think they're owed a place because they paid money to school but most people don't.



    As explained I dislike the two-tier system because it's not giving us an accurate representation of who the best students are.

    .

    Are you coming on to me?

    I find that so hard to believe based on my experiences in an Irish university. The private school students were bursting with confidence, notably moreso than state schoolers. And did well too.

    Being blunt, steddyeddy, you kinda have a chip on your shoulder about this topic and I’m not sure you approach the research objectively.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    I find that so hard to believe based on my experiences in an Irish university. The private school students were bursting with confidence, notably moreso than state schoolers. And did well too.

    Confidence doesn't equal ability. The best student in our group lacks confidence but she's the most capable. Confidence can be built. No offense either but "belief" doesn't really cut it.

    [/quote]
    Being blunt, steddyeddy, you kinda have a chip on your shoulder about this topic and I’m not sure you approach the research objectively.[/quote]

    Being equally blunt I think the ad hominem you often see in this debate highlights the weakness of the argument. Just like the headmaster who compared people who had a problem with it to the Nazis party. It's all to common in this debate and again, to be blunt I don't think you've added anything to it other than belief.

    I might have missreprented my role in this debate earlier but I didn't conduct the research myself. To bow to elites for a minute it was Cambridge and Manchester university that did. You can read their work on the subject. You don't have to actually rely on my conclusions, your beliefs or an ad hominem in this regard.


  • Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    I’ve yet to hear of students from impoverished backgrounds qualifying for student loans, and those students who do manage to qualify for student loans often finish their education in deep debt with no means to pay back their loans.


    UK student loan debt soars to more than £100bn

    Poor students do get help to go to university in the UK Jack. It's not ideal but it's getting there.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,458 ✭✭✭✭One eyed Jack


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Poor students do get help to go to university in the UK Jack. It's not ideal but it's getting there.


    They get help to get themselves in over their heads in debt so they can be told they’re just like everyone else now, and they’re somehow supposed to be appreciative of their privilege of being saddled with crippling debt, and then they become the target of that handful of people who make it their life’s mission to “challenge privilege”. It’s not ideal eddy, and it’s only going to get worse as more and more people are convinced to attend University where they feel they don’t belong, but they’re not given much of a choice as it’s expected of them and puts them under enormous pressure to be someone they’re not.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 8,474 ✭✭✭Obvious Desperate Breakfasts


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Confidence doesn't equal ability. The best student in our group lacks confidence but she's the most capable. Confidence can be built. No offense either but "belief" doesn't really cut it.

    Being equally blunt I think the ad hominem you often see in this debate highlights the weakness of the argument. Just like the headmaster who compared people who had a problem with it to the Nazis party. It's all to common in this debate and again, to be blunt I don't think you've added anything to it other than belief.

    I might have missreprented my role in this debate earlier but I didn't conduct the research myself. To bow to elites for a minute it was Cambridge and Manchester university that did. You can read their work on the subject. You don't have to actually rely on my conclusions, your beliefs or an ad hominem in this regard.

    Like I said, they also did well in addition to being confident. I found the private school college friends I had to be very accomplished. I read the report and it was interesting but did bring up many questions in my mind. Is the report taking in all the universities in the UK? Universities vary greatly in quality in the UK. There are a lot of them. The different between state school students who achieve all As at GCSE level getting good grades and private schooled students getting all As at GCSE level getting good degrees was quite close: something like 73% to 69%, wasn’t it? And again, which universities? I’d think more of a 1:1 or 2:1 from Oxford or, say, Bristol University than one from Thames Valley University. As well as that, what proportion of state school students are getting all As at GCSE and what proportion of private school students are?

    You do have a long history of posting about this topic on boards and your view does see a little entrenched. In Ireland, where the college application process is anonymous and based solely on grades, private schools top the league tables for the percentages they send to college. There can be no accusations of direct bias there. I acknowledge that private schools here confer advantages on their students that help them prepare better for exams. And going to college is much more an expectation in private schools. The question isn’t “Are you going to college?”, it’s ”Which college are you going to?”. But the report you reference that shows that state school students do better at university does throw up questions, as I mentioned above. I’d like to see an analysis of each university in the UK because the quality of institutions varies so much.

    And I say all this as somebody from a low income background who went to state school and who also a good college degree. I’m just interested in the data being interpreted properly and thoroughly.


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