Roundabout Query

GreeBo · 08-01-2019 3:26pm

Seth Brundle wrote: »

If you look at that roundabout on Streetview, there is a motorcycle guard a short bit ahead of the Google car

Yeah but he is just using the roundabout to go North on the M50?

liamog · 08-01-2019 3:46pm

emeldc wrote: »

That's wrong. There are two exit lanes at the first exit. What do you suppose the second one is for. Do you even know the roundabout.

The number of exit lanes is immaterial to the rules for using a roundabout.

Traffic entering the roundabout from Dundrum where they would be taking an exit after 12 O'Clock and therefore in the inside lane on the roundabout.
The RSA get's to make up the rules of the road, not the common actions of drivers.

Wheety · 08-01-2019 3:47pm

superg wrote: »

See this all the time in Liffey Valley too at the Roundabout near B&Q when you turn right to head out onto the Coldcut road. Two lanes leading up to it from the shopping centre, both clearly marked, left hand lane for straight ahead to Tesco and B&Q, right hand lane marked for right turn to head out onto Coldcut road yet 90% of people go round the roundabout in the left hand lane so if you obey the rules of the road and stay in the right hand lane on the roundabout you most likely will have some toolbox beside you in the left lane that you need to exit into when you leave the roundabout.

Yup and I've often been coming from B&Q and turning left towards Coldcut and a taxi will come all the way around (coming from the shopping centre direction) in the left lane, not indicating and then turn off towards Coldcut too.

emeldc · 08-01-2019 4:24pm

liamog wrote: »

The number of exit lanes is immaterial to the rules for using a roundabout.

Traffic entering the roundabout from Dundrum where they would be taking an exit after 12 O'Clock and therefore in the inside lane on the roundabout.
The RSA get's to make up the rules of the road, not the common actions of drivers.

Yea whatever. I know the R/A like the back of my hand. But I wont argue with you. You entitled to be wrong if you want to :rolleyes:

realdanbreen · 08-01-2019 4:29pm

Keep it simple(and correct)
If you are taking 1st or 2nd exit you stay in left lane
If you are taking any exit after that you stay in right lane.

tom1ie · 08-01-2019 4:58pm

realdanbreen wrote: »

Keep it simple(and correct)
If you are taking 1st or 2nd exit you stay in left lane
If you are taking any exit after that you stay in right lane.

Problem being on this particular roundabout there are only two exits, straight ahead for m50 and right for grange road.
So you can’t use the left hand lane for the 2nd exit.

ILikeBoats · 08-01-2019 5:10pm

Alun wrote: »

Exactly. It's not just for roundabouts either, but also for traffic light controlled junctions. Driving through an unfamiliar area when it's busy, and the road markings are obscured by traffic is a lottery. One junction it's left lane for left only and right lane for right and straight on, and at the next one it's left lane for left and straight on and right lane is for right only.

This can be very frustrating

Tchaikovsky · 08-01-2019 5:17pm

tom1ie wrote: »

There is NO legal way to be in the left hand lane and exit the roundabout on the right hand side.

Strangely enough, I encountered a Garda car doing just that (left lane, right exit) a few months ago.

liamog · 08-01-2019 5:44pm

emeldc wrote: »

Yea whatever. I know the R/A like the back of my hand. But I wont argue with you. You entitled to be wrong if you want to :rolleyes:

So which feature of the roundabout is allowing you to ignore the keep left rule?

Is the exit after 12 O'Clock? - NO
Are there lane markings indicating that lane 2 (the right lane) can go straight? - NO
Is there a road sign indicating that lane 2 can go straight? - NO
Do traffic conditions dictate otherwise, e.g. such as a long line or road works in the left lane - Possibly

So unless #4 applies, the driver should be on the left, and by not doing so is incorrectly using the roundabout.

emeldc · 08-01-2019 5:59pm

liamog wrote: »

So which feature of the roundabout is allowing you to ignore the keep left rule?
Is the exit after 12 O'Clock? - NO

Are there lane markings indicating that lane 2 (the right lane) can go straight? - NO

Is there a road sign indicating that lane 2 can go straight? - NO

Do traffic conditions dictate otherwise, e.g. such as a long line or road works in the left lane - Possibly

So unless #4 applies, the driver should be on the left, and by not doing so is incorrectly using the roundabout.

That feature would be the two exit lanes at the first exit. It never ceases to amaze me that even when something is pointed out to someone in black and white and they still can't see it.
If everyone heading for the M50 was compelled to use the left lane only, the tailback would stretch back to cherrywood! That's why there are two exit lanes. It helps the traffic-flow. They are not there for decoration. Do yourself a favour, if you're ever on it don't use the left lane for the second exit or you might get flattened by a HGV heading for the M50. Trust me!

Edit: There actually are road markings. A dotted white line from the R/A to the ramp. Also the two cars and the cop must be in the wrong lane as well.
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2702195,-6.2425828,3a,60y,270h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snPGsY0vyyN5FGKMY-_rH2Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

liamog · 08-01-2019 6:41pm

emeldc wrote: »

That feature would be the two exit lanes at the first exit. It never ceases to amaze me that even when something is pointed out to someone in black and white and they still can't see it.
If everyone heading for the M50 was compelled to use the left lane only, the tailback would stretch back to cherrywood! That's why there are two exit lanes. It helps the traffic-flow. They are not there for decoration. Do yourself a favour, if you're ever on it don't use the left lane for the second exit or you might get flattened by a HGV heading for the M50. Trust me!

Edit: There actually are road markings. A dotted white line from the R/A to the ramp. Also the two cars and the cop must be in the wrong lane as well.
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2702195,-6.2425828,3a,60y,270h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snPGsY0vyyN5FGKMY-_rH2Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192

Why would the traffic stretch back to Cherrywood for the first exit? Drivers would then be following the rule that traffic conditions allow them to use right lane.

It appears we may have crossed wires, I'm not arguing for keep left for the 2nd exit. You should be in the right lane for that as it's clearly after 12 O'Clock. This is why the instructions for roundabouts use the O'Clock system. It doesn't really matter what number the exit, what matters is where it is on the clock face.

emeldc · 08-01-2019 10:49pm

liamog wrote: »

Offically drivers in the right hand lane shouldn't take the first exit, they should only be taking the 2nd as the exit is before 12 O'Clock and there is not a road marking to indicate that straight is allowed.

We don’t have crossed wires. Your argument is that drivers in the r/h lane shouldn’t take the first exit. I have shown you with logic and pictures that you are wrong. There is nothing more I can do here. I’m out.

SimonTemplar · 08-01-2019 11:25pm

I found this in a leaflet from the RSA on roundabout usage

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Leaflets/Leaf_booklets/Roundabouts_DL_2012_v3.pdf

So it seems the default is to use the left but the right can also be used if needed.

liamog · 08-01-2019 11:48pm

emeldc wrote: »

We don’t have crossed wires. Your argument is that drivers in the r/h lane shouldn’t take the first exit. I have shown you with logic and pictures that you are wrong. There is nothing more I can do here. I’m out.

I have said that drivers in the right hand lane should not take the first exit unless

4. Traffic conditions dictate otherwise, e.g. such as a long line or road works in the left lane

as per the RSA guidelines. Which I linked and SimonTemplar has rather helpfully snippetted to assist.

You have not been able to provide a reason using photos or logic as to why using the r/h lane is allowed. Repeating the assertion without a source does not make it true.

emeldc · 09-01-2019 12:07am

liamog wrote: »

You have not been able to provide a reason using photos or logic as to why using the r/h lane is allowed. Repeating the assertion without a source does not make it true.

Ok, I’ll try again and I suggest you read the op’s question again.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2702195,-6.2425828,3a,60y,270h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snPGsY0vyyN5FGKMY-_rH2Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
This is the first exit off the r/a in question. Please explain what you don’t understand about it.

liamog · 09-01-2019 12:15am

emeldc wrote: »

Ok, I’ll try again and I suggest you read the op’s question again.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2702195,-6.2425828,3a,60y,270h,90t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1snPGsY0vyyN5FGKMY-_rH2Q!2e0!7i16384!8i8192
This is the first exit off the r/a in question. Please explain what you don’t understand about it.

As previously stated, I'm clearly aware of the roundabout. Again I ask you the question what justification do you have for being in the right lane?

If you were 'pulled' for being in the wrong lane, what reason would you provide that is backed up by a source other than "Well shucks, other people do it Garda."

emeldc · 09-01-2019 12:20am

liamog wrote: »

As previously stated, I'm clearly aware of the roundabout. Again I ask you the question what justification do you have for being in the right lane?

If you were 'pulled' for being in the wrong lane, what reason would you provide that is backed up by a source other than "Well shucks, other people do it Garda."

Ah liamog, FFS, I can’t argue any more with you. Drive safely.

liamog · 09-01-2019 1:07am

You too emeldc.

If you ever want to discuss an interesting roundabout again with similar traffic movements
here's one I'd recommnd https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4267662,-6.3582727,202m/data=!3m1!1e3 though I supect you may want a break

realdanbreen · 09-01-2019 9:06am

SimonTemplar wrote: »

I found this in a leaflet from the RSA on roundabout usage

http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Leaflets/Leaf_booklets/Roundabouts_DL_2012_v3.pdf

So it seems the default is to use the left but the right can also be used if needed.

That whole '12 O'clock ' rule has a bolox made of the whole thing.
Much simpler (and safer) to keep in left lane if taking 1st or 2nd exit, otherwise use right lane.

GreeBo · 09-01-2019 10:39am

realdanbreen wrote: »

That whole '12 O'clock ' rule has a bolox made of the whole thing.
Much simpler (and safer) to keep in left lane if taking 1st or 2nd exit, otherwise use right lane.

Not at all, as the roundabout in question aptly demonstrates!

Seth Brundle · 09-01-2019 11:12am

realdanbreen wrote: »

That whole '12 O'clock ' rule has a bolox made of the whole thing.
Much simpler (and safer) to keep in left lane if taking 1st or 2nd exit, otherwise use right lane.

...but that doesn't suit so many roundabouts e.g. https://www.google.com/maps/@53.2704102,-6.2427049,204a,35y,270h/data=!3m1!1e3 where anyone coming from Ballinteer Rd to M50 N should be able to use both left and right lanes. If you were to visit this, you would see that they do use both lanes in this scenario.

Dravokivich · 09-01-2019 1:18pm

tom1ie wrote: »

The overriding rule at roundabouts is
Left lane: left turn and straight on.
Right lane: right turn only UNLESS the road straight ahead is a dual lane road. In this case you can use the right lane to go straight on.

There is NO legal way to be in the left hand lane and exit the roundabout on the right hand side.

It doesn't matter how many lanes are on the exit. If there's 2 entering and the right isn't marked explicitly to go around, both can exit straight ahead.

If unmarked you can legally go around the round about entering from the left lane. Its just advised not to.

tom1ie · 09-01-2019 2:27pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

It doesn't matter how many lanes are on the exit. If there's 2 entering and the right isn't marked explicitly to go around, both can exit straight ahead.

If unmarked you can legally go around the round about entering from the left lane. Its just advised not to.

Your telling me that on an unmarked roundabout you can enter on the left and exit on the right?
How long have you your driving licence, or have you got one?

Alun · 09-01-2019 2:38pm

tom1ie wrote: »

Your telling me that on an unmarked roundabout you can enter on the left and exit on the right?
How long have you your driving licence, or have you got one?

The key word in the statement is "legally". AFAIK there's nothing in any SI that prohibits it, only what's in the ROTR which are guidelines and not legally binding.

Deise Vu · 09-01-2019 2:44pm

liamog wrote: »

Markings on the road override the standard rules.

For instance you cannot use the right lane to use an exit before 12 O'Clock unless there is a lane marking indicating otherwise. Except in the case where traffic conditions e.g. a queue of cars heading left at the first exit.

If for some reason the leftmost lane had a right arrow, then you would be allowed to use the left lane to turn right. Though in reality this would be a terrible design and should probably be fixed by the relevant authority.

You should check out the roundabout at Waterford Train Station at the northern end of Rice Bridge, it has exactly that configuration when you approach from the Sallypark (M9) direction. Helpfully, the road signs tell you to stay in the left lane when turning right if going towards The Quay and use the right lane turning right if going up Bridge Street. Because every driver in the world passing through Waterford knows whether he is going up Bridge Street or down the Quay.

Waterford is full of roundabouts with variations on the standard left lane for left / straight ahead. Some of the major ones such as the Hospital (handy that!) have left lane / left only and left lane / left or straight ahead depending on which direction you approach the Roundabout. It generally works great but you need to be very aware that the person beside you probably hasn't noticed the signs. The one's completely in the wrong are also always the first on their supercharged car horn.

liamog · 10-01-2019 2:07am

Dravokivich wrote: »

It doesn't matter how many lanes are on the exit. If there's 2 entering and the right isn't marked explicitly to go around, both can exit straight ahead.

You are correct re the number of exit lanes not mattering, however if the straight ahead exit is at or before 12 O'Clock and the entry lanes are unmarked. Only the left lane should be used for using that exit, unless traffic conditions, such as their is a large queue of traffic taking an exit prior to straight exit.

Dravokivich · 10-01-2019 12:54pm

tom1ie wrote: »

Your telling me that on an unmarked roundabout you can enter on the left and exit on the right?
How long have you your driving licence, or have you got one?

It doesn't matter how long I've been driving for. I know the difference in context between an action that's legal and an action that's suggested.

I don't recall reading anything in the Road Traffic Acts, about explicit use of lanes on a round about based upon entry / exit. It's just as with anywhere else on the roads, Road Markings take precedence. If it's unmarked, you are required to try and use it as safely as you can.

liamog wrote: »

You are correct re the number of exit lanes not mattering, however if the straight ahead exit is at or before 12 O'Clock and the entry lanes are unmarked. Only the left lane should be used for using that exit, unless traffic conditions, such as their is a large queue of traffic taking an exit prior to straight exit.

tom1ie is arguing a legal need to not use the left lane, to go further. As opposed to turning off earlier from a right lane. I don't recall seeing anything that states that, other than advice on how to approach round abouts.

liamog · 10-01-2019 1:13pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

tom1ie is arguing a legal need to not use the left lane, to go further. As opposed to turning off earlier from a right lane. I don't recall seeing anything that states that, other than advice on how to approach round abouts.

Is there a general requirement to obey road markings and signage? The act of using the right lane is not specifically illegal, but ignoring the road markings and failing to keep left may have caused an offence?

TheChizler · 10-01-2019 1:33pm

liamog wrote: »

Is there a general requirement to obey road markings and signage? The act of using the right lane is not specifically illegal, but ignoring the road markings and failing to keep left may have caused an offence?

The only road marking I can think of on a roundabout that can really dictate where you exit is a continuous white line. Otherwise you can just make a lane change (safely) if you need to.

The only references I can find to arrows in legislation say they dictate the direction you must take at a junction to join the flow of traffic, so going by that a left arrow just means join the roundabout by going left (clockwise) but says nothing about what exit you take since a roundabout is just a series of junctions on a one way road, and a right arrow would technically mean go right when you join the junction, this would be anticlockwise and is directly contradicted by the only law mentioning roundabouts, so does this mean arrows entering roundabouts are meaningless legally and just suggestions? Discuss...

Now if there was a left arrow coming onto a roundabout but the line markings implied you could go left or straight there might be confusion, maybe you might be guilty of dangerous driving depending on how you handled it.

Spook_ie · 10-01-2019 1:53pm

liamog wrote: »

You too emeldc.

If you ever want to discuss an interesting roundabout again with similar traffic movements
here's one I'd recommnd https://www.google.com/maps/@53.4267662,-6.3582727,202m/data=!3m1!1e3 though I supect you may want a break

It has spiral markings what's the problem?

Roundabout Query

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