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Trespass law (Merged with other)

  • 30-03-2008 9:26pm
    #1
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭


    Trespass!
    What is trespass?

    Does trespass exist as a blanket(cover everywhere) law in Eire?


    Does the presence or lack of a gate effect the validity of the trespass law.
    In other words, if one walks in to a property where no gate exists can this be considered as trespass.


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Comments

  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 14,460 Mod ✭✭✭✭johnnyskeleton


    I take it you mean trespass to land as opposed to trespass to the person (i.e. hitting someone)?

    Trespass to land is to enter onto someone else's property without their permission or other lawful authority.

    If someone entering onto a premises is not there by as of right or invitation (a visitor) nor are they there as a recreational user (i.e. to look at an area of natural beauty) then they are a trespasser in civil law under the occupier's liability act, 1995.

    Trespass is a criminal offence if it is done to cause fear in another person or in circumstances which give rise to a reasonable inference that they were there to commit an offence under the Public Order Act, 1994. Entering a premises without lawful authority intending to commit a serious offence or while there actually committing a serious offence is burglary.

    Gates make no real difference, other than in a criminal case it could be argued that the person did not know he was entering onto someone else's land.


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,218 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    There is also a provision under a recent (c. 2000) Housing Act.

    Lack of a gate is insufficient information. Is there any other boundary or marker?

    Lack of a boundary would make a criminal prosecution difficult. However, it could open the occupier up to public liability issues if the 'trespasser' couldn't be aware they were trespassing.


  • Legal Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 4,338 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tom Young


    ....and the test for trespass is? Anyone ....

    The Direct Consequences test ...


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭ivanthehunter


    Victor wrote: »
    There is also a provision under a recent (c. 2000) Housing Act.

    Lack of a gate is insufficient information. Is there any other boundary or marker?

    Lack of a boundary would make a criminal prosecution difficult. However, it could open the occupier up to public liability issues if the 'trespasser' couldn't be aware they were trespassing.
    i am only talking about trespass in general terms so i am unable to give you an specific details.
    what concerns me is the placement of signage which claims "trespassers will be prosecuted",these are to be seen everywhere and i think that they give the impression that this can only happen where such signs exist.
    In terms of boundarys, it is very rare that land is found with out boundary of sorts, i know it exists but as you have shown already it is very difficult to claim trespass and as such it would seem that only a mad man would place a sign in such circumstances.:rolleyes:
    In most if not all circumstances where a gate is found to be missing it is usually missing from a boundary of sorts say a hedge or earthen bank or dry stone wall.

    Johnyskeletion- That seemed like an exemption to the rule, that bit about viewing some place of natural beauty. A recreational user!!!
    Can you elaborate on recreational user in terms of recreations


  • Legal Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 4,338 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tom Young


    That is defined in the act: Recreational user. Its available on www.irishstatutebook.ie
    "recreational activity" means any recreational activity conducted, whether alone or with others, in the open air (including any sporting activity), scientific research and nature study so conducted, exploring caves and visiting sites and buildings of historical, architectural, traditional, artistic, archaeological or scientific importance;

    "recreational user" means an entrant who, with or without the occupier's permission or at the occupier's implied invitation, is present on premises without a charge (other than a reasonable charge in respect of the cost of providing vehicle parking facilities) being imposed for the purpose of engaging in a recreational activity, including an entrant admitted without charge to a national monument pursuant to section 16 (1) of the National Monuments Act, 1930 , but not including an entrant who is so present and is—

    ( a ) a member of the occupier's family who is ordinarily resident on the premises,

    ( b ) an entrant who is present at the express invitation of the occupier or such a member, or

    ( c ) an entrant who is present with the permission of the occupier or such a member for social reasons connected with the occupier or such a member;


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭ivanthehunter


    Tom Young wrote: »
    ....and the test for trespass is? Anyone ....

    The Direct Consequences test ...

    What is this test?

    General: It seems that one might enter land where no signs are present to advise otherwise. ie. "No Trespass" or "private property" or "trespassers prosecuted"
    Even so, if one was approached by the occupier and one was accused of trespass could one plead that one was appreciating an area of natural beauty and avoid all trespass charges??


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭ivanthehunter


    These signs are found all across Ireland and are some times posted right in ones face at scenic locations as such they often detract form an otherwise prefect view and lead to a feeling of contempt for the land law system.
    Are they of any benefit to the land owner and do they reduce his duty of care or show that he took reasonable steps to keep entrants out..

    What sort of protection does a sign of this sort really provide to a land owner and how does it relate to the trespass laws?
    Can a sign of this nature really keep out recreational users?


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,284 ✭✭✭ivanthehunter


    Tom Young wrote: »
    ....and the test for trespass is? Anyone ....

    The Direct Consequences test ...
    Q.What is it?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,632 ✭✭✭NoQuarter


    Q.What is it?

    Direct consequences test:


    Re Polemis (1921)


    [1921] 3 KB 560 (AC). The defendants negligently dropped a plank into the hold of the claimants' tanker, breaking some cans of benzine, which caught fire and did substantial damage to the vessel. The Court of Appeal held that since the defendants should have foreseen the damage which was a direct concequence of dropping the plank, they were liable for the whole extent of the damage. This was so even though they would not have been aware of the extent of the damage that was likely to be caused. This decision appeared to settle the law on the relationship between foreseeability and remoteness, but it was strongly disapproved by the Privy Council in TheWagonMound1961.



    -K zone


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11 Pyro202


    Hello, someone, a man living nearbye me drove his tractor through my land, what should i do?? can i sue him??, he drove his tractor through my field to enter his, i know this is illegal


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    See a solicitor.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11 Pyro202


    thanks for the reply, anyone elsehave a any ideas, has this happened to anyone else


  • Legal Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 4,338 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tom Young


    You can't get legal advice here.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11 Pyro202


    did i ask for legal advice you [SNIPPED] head


  • Registered Users Posts: 78,218 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Pyro202 wrote: »
    Hello, someone, a man living nearbye me drove his tractor through my land, what should i do?? can i sue him??, he drove his tractor through my field to enter his, i know this is illegal
    Is there a right of way on your land?

    Perhaps, before you go for the nuclear option, you should talk to the tractor driver. Explain that you have concerns and mention any damage caused.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭dermot_sheehan


    I could tell you about the possible remedies in damages and circuit court injunctions.

    Tell me why though I should possibly place my professional indemnity insurance on the line, viz-a-vie a claim for negligent misstatement to someone who is abusive to a fellow moderator on this board.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,769 Mod ✭✭✭✭nuac


    Pyro202

    You should consider apologising to Tom Young. Apart f rom being a moderator he has posted many helpful messages here and knows his law.

    Your neighbour may have a right of way. Most farmers in my experience do not chance their arm in such matters. Talk to your neighbour. Only invoke the law against a neighbour as a last lasr last resort. Believe me on this - 30++ years experience of such matters.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 174 ✭✭gar_29


    Tom Young wrote: »
    That is defined in the act: Recreational user. Its available on www.irishstatutebook.ie

    "recreational activity" means any recreational activity conducted, whether alone or with others, in the open air (including any sporting activity), scientific research and nature study so conducted, exploring caves and visiting sites and buildings of historical, architectural, traditional, artistic, archaeological or scientific importance;

    "recreational user" means an entrant who, with or without the occupier's permission or at the occupier's implied invitation, is present on premises without a charge (other than a reasonable charge in respect of the cost of providing vehicle parking facilities) being imposed for the purpose of engaging in a recreational activity, including an entrant admitted without charge to a national monument pursuant to section 16 (1) of the National Monuments Act, 1930 , but not including an entrant who is so present and is—

    so how come i have to pay to get into newgrange? does that mean that i can just walk in? i know you pay for the interpretive centre, but you also pay to access the monument itself....

    just wondering!!! :)


  • Registered Users Posts: 44 Brigante


    Hey Im being charged with trespassing at a Dart station, an incident Im pretty sure never happened.. Anyone know what could happen me?? :confused: I will not be paying a fine for something I didnt do


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,333 ✭✭✭Zambia


    Your pretty sure?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 9,897 ✭✭✭MagicSean


    So where did they get your name?


  • Registered Users Posts: 44 Brigante


    Zambia wrote: »
    Your pretty sure?

    No just found out Im definatley sure!! It was a night there was a beach rave in Howth. I got the dart to howth.. left my schoolbag on the train which for some reason had my passport and all my drink in it..now ive heard that afew people I know got summonsed to court for that night aswell, most just ripped it up


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 29,476 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    most just ripped it up
    Ah sure, that will make it all go away.


  • Registered Users Posts: 142 ✭✭ViP3r


    Pyro202 wrote: »
    Hello, someone, a man living nearbye me drove his tractor through my land, what should i do?? can i sue him??, he drove his tractor through my field to enter his, i know this is illegal

    Ask him to stop?:)


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,249 ✭✭✭Squiggle


    I take it you mean trespass to land as opposed to trespass to the person (i.e. hitting someone)?

    Trespass to land is to enter onto someone else's property without their permission or other lawful authority.

    If someone entering onto a premises is not there by as of right or invitation (a visitor) nor are they there as a recreational user (i.e. to look at an area of natural beauty) then they are a trespasser in civil law under the occupier's liability act, 1995.

    Trespass is a criminal offence if it is done to cause fear in another person or in circumstances which give rise to a reasonable inference that they were there to commit an offence under the Public Order Act, 1994. Entering a premises without lawful authority intending to commit a serious offence or while there actually committing a serious offence is burglary.

    Gates make no real difference, other than in a criminal case it could be argued that the person did not know he was entering onto someone else's land.

    From the Act:

    “visitor” means—


    (a) an entrant, other than a recreational user, who is present on premises at the invitation, or with the permission, of the occupier or any other entrant specified in paragraph (a), (b) or (c) of the definition of “recreational user”,


    (b) an entrant, other than a recreational user, who is present on premises by virtue of an express or implied term in a contract, and


    (c) an entrant as of right,

    while he or she is so present, as the case may be, for the purpose for which he or she is invited or permitted to be there, for the purpose of the performance of the contract or for the purpose of the exercise of the right, and includes any such entrant whose presence on premises has become unlawful after entry thereon and who is taking reasonable steps to leave.

    Does the bold text not mean that a bank has every right to call to someone's house regarding a mortgage arrears situation, even if the bank are told by the borrower that they only want written correspondence?


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,632 ✭✭✭NoQuarter


    Squiggle wrote: »

    Does the bold text not mean that a bank has every right to call to someone's house regarding a mortgage arrears situation, even if the bank are told by the borrower that they only want written correspondence?

    If somebody from the bank hasnt come around to the property and injured themselves on the property then your question is not relevant.

    That provision is about the liability of the occupier of land for the injuries of an entrant.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 6,769 Mod ✭✭✭✭nuac


    Pyro,

    Tell you what, go to the guy with the tractor and address him in the same terms as you did our esteemed TY above.

    Let us know how you got on.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭biddybops


    Squiggle wrote: »
    I take it you mean trespass to land as opposed to trespass to the person (i.e. hitting someone)?

    Trespass to land is to enter onto someone else's property without their permission or other lawful authority.

    If someone entering onto a premises is not there by as of right or invitation (a visitor) nor are they there as a recreational user (i.e. to look at an area of natural beauty) then they are a trespasser in civil law under the occupier's liability act, 1995.

    Trespass is a criminal offence if it is done to cause fear in another person or in circumstances which give rise to a reasonable inference that they were there to commit an offence under the Public Order Act, 1994. Entering a premises without lawful authority intending to commit a serious offence or while there actually committing a serious offence is burglary.

    Gates make no real difference, other than in a criminal case it could be argued that the person did not know he was entering onto someone else's land.

    From the Act:

    “visitor” means—


    (a) an entrant, other than a recreational user, who is present on premises at the invitation, or with the permission, of the occupier or any other entrant specified in paragraph (a), (b) or (c) of the definition of “recreational user”,


    (b) an entrant, other than a recreational user, who is present on premises by virtue of an express or implied term in a contract, and


    (c) an entrant as of right,

    while he or she is so present, as the case may be, for the purpose for which he or she is invited or permitted to be there, for the purpose of the performance of the contract or for the purpose of the exercise of the right, and includes any such entrant whose presence on premises has become unlawful after entry thereon and who is taking reasonable steps to leave.

    Does the bold text not mean that a bank has every right to call to someone's house regarding a mortgage arrears situation, even if the bank are told by the borrower that they only want written correspondence?

    If a person( only a tenant) adjoining your property breaks into a vacant house to erect a water supply to their own house and floods the house.
    Who is liable the tenant or the owner?


  • Registered Users Posts: 944 ✭✭✭loremolis


    nuac wrote: »
    Pyro,

    Tell you what, go to the guy with the tractor and address him in the same terms as you did our esteemed TY above.

    Let us know how you got on.

    That's 3 years ago.
    I'd hope that's sorted by now.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 1,249 ✭✭✭Squiggle


    NoQuarter wrote: »
    If somebody from the bank hasnt come around to the property and injured themselves on the property then your question is not relevant.

    That provision is about the liability of the occupier of land for the injuries of an entrant.

    Thanks - I had done a search on here about trespassing and arrived at this thread ! Does a bank, or indeed any creditor, have a right to call to a debtors property if the debtor has made it clear to the creditor that they do not have the debtor's permission to do so.


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