combi boiler

K.Flyer wrote: »

https://www.water.ie/our-customer-commitment/Code-of-Practice-for-Water-Supply.pdf

This extract from above says it all..... every house in the country must be in contravention of this??

2.6.13 Where electric showers and dishwasher, washing machine, heating
systems, etc. are provided in buildings, they shall not be connected
directly to Irish Water’s water supply system. They must be fed from the
storage tank located within the building. Direct feeds from Irish Water’s
water supply system shall only be to a potable water supply tap and the
water storage tank.

I'm just over 50 now and it's been like that since before that. My own dad was originally a plumber in the 50s and 60s.

I actually believed that each individual county council made their own rules on this decades ago but I may missremember that

Edit I wonder do they bring a cold supply from the attic to the kitchen for dishwasher on new builds now?

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Edit I wonder do they bring a cold supply from the attic to the kitchen for dishwasher on new builds now?

I don’t anyway. A lot of washing machines and dishwashers won’t work on gravity fed water. Simply not enough pressure. Saying that though, most new builds these days are all pressurised systems

Not so sure about houses, but most of the apartment developments I work in all the appliances are from the apartment storage tank via a pump.
Some developments have All the supplied water pumped, but taken from a break tank.
Most U.V. cylinders are done the same way, as would be combi boilers, so no regulation issues there.
For example, in one all electric development there is a direct mains feed to kitchen cold tap only. Everything else, including the u.v. cylinders, come from huge remote water storage tanks via variable speed pump stations. The same again where combi boilers are fitted and no cylinder, all from remote tanks via pumps. This is in keeping with the regulations as the break / storage tanks are in place.

blackbox wrote: »

I understood that dishwashers have to be connected to mains water for hygiene reasons. Don't want to wash dishes in water from a tank with a dead mouse in it.

But its still ok to wash and brush your teeth from it.
As you have probably already read in some of the above posts, nothing except cold kitchen tap and water storage tank allowed.

2.6.13 Where electric showers and dishwasher, washing machine, heating systems, etc. are provided in buildings, they shall not be connected directly to Irish Water’s water supply system. They must be fed from the storage tank located within the building.

DGOBS wrote: »

It's archaic in nature, and is only there as IW (and previously local authorities) cannot guarantee supply the pressure required for appliances.

It's ridiculous

I'm renovating a (very small) house at the moment and absolutely share your views and frustration on this. The Building Regs say simply that there has to be suitable water supply to the taps, WCs, etc. The technical GUIDANCE (note guidance only, not a law or regulation, and therefore able to be flexed) suggests that only the kitchen tap and CWST can be mains fed. The IW Code of Practice is only mandatory for new developments with new connections. Therefore, it is NOT mandatory for renovations where there is an existing mains connection.

Having said all that, given the wide-spread reluctance to actually understand what is mandatory and what is not (even the reluctance to understand the purpose of the guidance, which is even prefaced by a statement that alternative methods may achieve the purpose better, eg connecting directly to the mains with an appropriate back siphonage prevention valve so as to avoid any possible contamination of the mains water), it seems we are stuck in the dark ages of plumbing and having to spend a small fortune on pumps etc. Unfortunately, there's little point being right when everyone around you refuses to question their outdated assumptions.

I'm just resigned to sucking it up (literally) and installing a CWST as a break tank and then immediately pumping it again around the house and to my combi. Massive pain in the hole and waste of valuable storage space (and money).

Sleeper12 wrote: »

Just to point out that this isn't a new regulation. I'm in my 50s & this reg has been in place long before I was born. So unless the original incorrect connections to the mains were made over 70 years ago then it goes against the regs. I can't speak for the rest of the country but in Dublin DCC state that you should have 24 hours supply of stored water.


I believe the reason for the regs nothing to dowith back siphonage ( every country has this risk) but basically because our water system can't cope with everything on mains. The likes of the UK where cold water tanks aren't required have massive water pressure. 10 bar would be common. In Dublin you are lucky to get 1 bar in places. In these places pressure can drop so much at peak times that the cold water tank is no longer being filled but no one notices. It will fill again in a few hours when demand drops off. Many parts of Dublin doesn't have enough constant water pressure to run a basic mains pressure electric shower. I've heard of plenty of combi boilers not working at peak times as the pressure drops too much. The only way to be certain in Ireland is to supply the combi off a cold water tank with a pump


Until we pay for water & there is proper investment nothing will change. Irish water can increase the pressure but that would mean even more treated water would leak under the city.

The "regulations" are not for local county councils - since 2014 they were all transferred to Irish Water. IW gives guidance but these are not regulations nor laws.

Part G of the Second Schedule to the Building Regulations 1997 - 2008, provides as follows:

"Bathrooms and kitchens. G1 A dwelling shall be provided with -
(a) a bathroom containing either a fixed bath or a shower bath, and a washbasin, and
(b) a kitchen containing a sink of adequate size and a draining board, and
(c) a suitable installation for the provision of hot and cold water to the bath or shower bath, washbasin and sink.
Sanitary conveniences and G2 (1) Adequate sanitary conveniences shall be provided in a building washing facilities. in rooms provided for that purpose, or in bathrooms, and
every room or bathroom which contains a sanitary convenience shall be adequately separated from any place where food is prepared or cooked.
(2) Adequate washbasins shall be provided in -
(a) rooms containing sanitary conveniences; or
(b) rooms or spaces adjacent to rooms containing sanitary conveniences.
(3) There shall be a suitable installation for the provision of hot and cold water to washbasins provided in accordance with subparagraph (2).
(4) Sanitary conveniences shall be of such design as to facilitate efficient use of water for flushing.
(5) Sanitary conveniences and washbasins shall be of such design and be so installed as to allow for effective cleaning.
Definition for this Part. G3 In this Part, “sanitary convenience" means a water closet or a urinal."

Technical Guidance Part G "Hygiene" gives *guidance* on how to satisfy these regulations. This is guidance only, not mandatory. The intro on page 2 even says specifically "the adoption of an approach other than that outlined in the guidance is not precluded provided that the relevant requirements of the Regulations are complied with".

As you can see from the Regs, this is about hygiene, not demand on the water supply.

IW connection terms and conditions specifically state that the internal reserves of water are for the home owner. They recommend (again not mandate) 24 hours worth of storage. But this is a risk that should be for the home owner to determine. The Technical Guidance suggests 200+ litres would be appropriate.

There may be perfectly valid reasons to keep a cold water tank etc and I completely agree with you on that - it may be sensible to provide for the fact that IW supply can be a bit rubbish. However it is incorrect to state that these are regulations. They are mere guidance.

References in case anyone wants to check what I'm saying (I would post links but Boards won't let me):

- Technical Guidance Part G - building regs and (non-mandatory) guidance
- Irish Water Code of Practice - Note this is mandatory for new connections, NOT mandatory for existing connections
- Number 6 of 2013. WATER SERVICES ACT 2013 - established IW and transferred powers from local authorities to IW
- Irish Water new connection General Terms and Conditions
- Irish Water website connections FAQs

I don't think I've missed anything in the above but please let me know if I have!

Absolutely - both should definitely be considered, I completely agree with you on that. My point is though that they are not mandatory in all cases and in some cases deviation from the CoP and technical guidance is totally fine. Better, even, from an environmental impact point of view.

The Code of Practice is mandatory for new connections, not existing ones. So if you are a developer building a new house/block of apartments, then you need to comply with the Code of Practice or IW won't allow your new connection. If you are renovating, yes you should have regard to it but it doesn't mean you are stuck only doing exactly what it says.

The CoP is not part of the Regs - the only *legal* requirement is the Building Regs, which the technical guidance explicitly says may be complied with in ways other than set out in the technical guidance. The technical guidance, as you pointed out earlier I think, has been around for decades and it hasn't been updated to account for developments in engineering/components. It would be crazy, in my view, to limit progress based on new technology just because the guidance states one way to comply with the regs is to do XYZ.

There is absolutely nothing that says Irish Water can make law - that's for the Minister to do.

That link doesn't work for me and I can't work out what the reference is - what IW document is it linking to?

In the UK its more common place to use pressure reducing valves than pumps. Says a lot about our water system but hey they want free water

Assuming it is OK to run your system directly off the mains then if, at any time IW decide to reduce the pressure as per my post #47 above, how are you going to run your power shower(s) as 1.8 bar will not IMO be sufficient.
I had a mains pressure of 2.6/3 bar for 47 years until it was reduced.

Sleeper12 wrote: »

You don't seem to understand what the building regs are all about. I understand to the homeowner or someone building their own home it can seen as an obstacle to get over & all you want is the piece of paper saying that you have met the regs. That isn't what the regs are. They are the minimum building standard. They are something tradesmen work to day in & day out. These aren't just for new builds or large extensions. Even the tiniest of jobs should meet or exceed the building regs if possible. The regs have legal meaning outside of new builds. To win a case against a tradesman all the homeowner needs to prove in court is that the job doesn't meet the current building regs.



From a plumbers point of view they should always meet Irish Waters minimum requirements & meet the current building regs. The logic of getting a cold water tank to meet regs & ripping it out once you have the compliance cert is like driving safely on your test & like a lunatic once you pass the test. It makes no sense. Tradesmen are bound by the building regs all of the time & not just on new builds.



A good plumber will always work to best practice. A good plumber will insist on a break water tank & a pump. This is the correct way to install a combi in Ireland. A plumber could ignore regs & test your water pressure & flow rate. He might be happy to install a combi on the mains despite the building regs. It might work perfectly & live a long & happy life BUT six months after installation Irish Water might reduces the flow & pressure & the combi mightn't work. A good plumber wont take this risk.






Respectfully, the above statement is an over simplified statement

You will find in the installation instructions & the warranty card that come with the combi boiler state that the installation should meet local building & water regs/requirements.

Respectfully, Sleeper12, you have completely misconstrued my analysis and interpretation.

I posted that response with the aim of being helpful to others: your reply is needlessly insulting and contradictory.

AmatureRuth wrote:

I posted that response with the aim of being helpful to others: your reply is needlessly insulting and contradictory.

What I posted is that not using a cold water break tank is against the building regulations and against Irish water regulations. Plumbers are bound by these regulations and best practice on new builds large and small extentions or just changing the boiler. This is a fact.

If you to remove your cold water tank no one will stop you. No one will know but its still wrong on just about all levels. Most plumbers won't touch it though.

AmatureRuth wrote: »

If you could point me to the Building Regs (not guidance) that says this I will eat my hat. If you could also point me to the "Irish Water Regs" that would also be great. (Neither exist.)

The technical guidance specifically says "the adoption of an approach other than that outlined in the guidance is not precluded provided that the relevant requirements of the Regulations are complied with" so please don't point me to guidance and claim that it is "law" or "regulations" because it is not.

I have explained this already. You are talking about building regulations as in getting a compliance cert. This has nothing to do with tradesmen having to follow the regs on every job, big & small



If a plumber takes out your cold water tank & installs a combi directly to the mains it might work perfectly forever. However if Irish water reduce the pressure or flow rate then you can bring the plumber to court & you will win your court case. You will win because the plumber went against Irish water stating that only drtinking water should be connected to the mains & because the plumber went against the building regs. You might think you are clever & can get around those pesky building regs but tradesmen are bound to them. Not meeting the building regs & Irish water requirements is more than enough to lose a court case.




You can do what ever you want & no one will ever know. There are thousands or 10s of thousands log cabins all over Ireland & not a single one has planning for living accommodation because not one meets the building regs but it doesn't stop people building them & living in them.





You obviously have a bee in your bonnet about this, big enough to open an account specially to push your opinion on the subject. I wont reply again as me repeating myself & you ignoring the points I make makes ugly reading. So I'll leave you to your, cold water free, tank house. :pac:

This has gone beyond ridiculous.

Can I ask the RGI members here to state if AmatureRuth is correct when she states that you can ignore the current building regulations when installing a replacement gas boiler. Can you ignore the installation instructions when it states that the installation MUST comply with the current building regulations in your area?

So question RGI members: Do you need to follow current building regs when replacing a gas boiler? Or can you ignore current building regs? Pick & choose what regs to follow on an installation?