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Why are British long-distance train fares so high?

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  • 06-01-2020 1:08pm
    #1
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,066 ✭✭✭✭


    I know that UK fares are high, but why?

    I have been looking at London KGX to Edinburgh, two months away.

    So it is an advance ticket.

    620 km approx, 4h20 is the fastest train, others are towards 5h.

    The best I can see is GBP 35, but not easy to get, I also see some GBP 43, and GBP 51.50 is widely available.

    These are non-flexible fares.


    If I look at Berlin-Munich, a similar distance, same dates, say Wed 11-Mar, I see fares like 28 euro and 36 euro.

    There is even one fare at 18 euro!!! Also 24.


    Now, AFAIK, the long-distance trains in DE are commercial, i.e. there isn't a Govt subsidy?

    And the German fares include the low VAT rate.


    Does anybody have any answers/explanations?


Comments

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    #2
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Franchising.

    The absolute worst method of privatisation possible for the consumer/government but best for shareholders; so of course the UK picked it.


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    #3
    lawred2
    Registered Users Posts: 24,268 ✭✭✭✭lawred2


    Would have thought 35 pounds London to Edinburgh was pretty reasonable myself


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    #4
    theteal
    Registered Users Posts: 7,593 ✭✭✭theteal


    lawred2 wrote: »
    Would have thought 35 pounds London to Edinburgh was pretty reasonable myself

    It's £15+ for the 35-40 minute journey from my sleepy Essex town to Liverpool Street. £35 to Edinburgh is amazing afaik!

    A lot of the cost is down to the rail companies. The line parallel to where I live, which runs into Fenchurch St, for a similar distance is about £800 less per year. That line is more reliable too.


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    #5
    mikemac2
    Registered Users Posts: 2,926 ✭✭✭mikemac2


    I´ve seen Manchester - London at 110 pounds and that is only a single. Not even first class

    I was expecting a similar example

    London to Edinburgh for 35 pounds is very good value imo. I'd have no issues paying that


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    #6
    Praetorian
    Registered Users Posts: 3,711 ✭✭✭Praetorian


    A friend of mine in the UK spends 60 quid + per day! Insane.


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    #7
    Geuze
    Registered Users Posts: 13,066 ✭✭✭✭Geuze


    lawred2 wrote: »
    Would have thought 35 pounds London to Edinburgh was pretty reasonable myself

    Yes, GBP 35 or 42 euro is good, yes.

    But not widely available on the day I checked, maybe just on 1 service.

    Whereas on DB fares like 27 euro are much more widely available.


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    #8
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,984 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    franchising + the deliberate fragmentation and all of the costs that brings, the government reducing subsidy and expecting higher and higher premiums from operators.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #9
    Marcusm
    Registered Users Posts: 10,184 ✭✭✭✭Marcusm


    L1011 wrote: »
    Franchising.

    The absolute worst method of privatisation possible for the consumer/government but best for shareholders; so of course the UK picked it.

    The prices the OP quotes are quite reasonable IMO. As regards franchising, splitting the network up into franchises was probably the only way to deal with mass strikes for, in some cases, essentially localised issues. The whole system was designed as a camel and tinkered with too often, SRA, ORR, DafT etc. It still has not bedded down, procurement of new stock was shoddily handled and, as with franchise awards, often prioritised financial metrics which were either unnecessary or unattainable. This carries on a la SWT this month. Too many consultants and too many economic theories. Too little operational resilience prioritisation.


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    #10
    scudzilla
    Registered Users Posts: 11,911 ✭✭✭✭scudzilla


    It's crazy, my hometown is Llandudno in North Wales, not that far from Holyhead.

    Say a member of my family wanted to go to London on the train and buys a return ticket. An ANYTIME return ticket (use within 1 month) costs 413euro


    A Rail and Sail, from Dublin to London costs 97Euro return and you can use any train.


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    #11
    theteal
    Registered Users Posts: 7,593 ✭✭✭theteal


    scudzilla wrote: »
    It's crazy, my hometown is Llandudno in North Wales, not that far from Holyhead.

    Say a member of my family wanted to go to London on the train and buys a return ticket. An ANYTIME return ticket (use within 1 month) costs 413euro


    A Rail and Sail, from Dublin to London costs 97Euro return and you can use any train.

    Sail and Rail has gone up. It's been a while!

    Yeah I've come across some some mental prices like that before. There's a split ticketing website (possibly a few) to help people avoid such ridiculousness.


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    #12
    end of the road
    Registered Users Posts: 28,984 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Marcusm wrote: »
    The prices the OP quotes are quite reasonable IMO. As regards franchising, splitting the network up into franchises was probably the only way to deal with mass strikes for, in some cases, essentially localised issues.

    i believe sectorisation already dealt with that issue.
    as i understand, while staff were working for 1 brand, they could not get involved in issues not localised to them, but only across the board issues.
    Marcusm wrote: »
    The whole system was designed as a camel and tinkered with too often, SRA, ORR, DafT etc. It still has not bedded down, procurement of new stock was shoddily handled and, as with franchise awards, often prioritised financial metrics which were either unnecessary or unattainable. This carries on a la SWT this month. Too many consultants and too many economic theories. Too little operational resilience prioritisation.

    agreed but it was always unworkable and was always going to be massively costly and inefficient.
    i think that keeping the national operator and allowing open access earlier probably would have been the best option as it would have allowed competition where viable, much earlier, would have kept costs down, would have kept a lot of the skill now lost which has to be bought in at great cost, possibly would have allowed more needed projects to be done.
    all a mute point now of course as it is what it is.

    ticking a box on a form does not make you of a religion.



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    #13
    josip
    Registered Users Posts: 13,637 ✭✭✭✭josip


    I can't see the long distance rail fares normalising in the next generation if they have to cover the increasing cost of this.

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jan/20/hs2-costs-government-review-west-midlands-manchester-leeds

    For a country that invented railways and opened up affordable transport for the masses, they've lost the plot a bit.


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    #14
    Tired Gardener
    Closed Accounts Posts: 456 ✭✭Tired Gardener


    The train prices are utterly ridiculous in the UK. I lived there for most of my life and rarely used the trains due to the price. A train from Leeds to Manchester Airport would be about €38 for an hour journey. I can get from Dublin to Sligo for about €18, and that is a 3 hour journey.

    Cheapest long distance transport in the UK is National Express Coaches (while a longer journey) far more reasonable.

    Biggest shock was when visiting Italy, very cheap, very fast, and punctual service.


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    #15
    theteal
    Registered Users Posts: 7,593 ✭✭✭theteal


    Tired Gardener wrote: »
    The train prices are utterly ridiculous in the UK. I lived there for most of my life and rarely used the trains due to the price. A train from Leeds to Manchester Airport would be about €38 for an hour journey. I can get from Dublin to Sligo for about €18, and that is a 3 hour journey.

    Cheapest long distance transport in the UK is National Express Coaches (while a longer journey) are far more reasonable.

    Biggest shock was when visiting Italy, very cheap, very fast, and punctual service.

    I used to know a bloke (well a friend of a friend) who travelled from Dundee to London on a Megabus. It cost about 4p but you'd really want to hate your life to do that to yourself.


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    #16
    Tired Gardener
    Closed Accounts Posts: 456 ✭✭Tired Gardener


    theteal wrote: »
    I used to know a bloke (well a friend of a friend) who travelled from Dundee to London on a Megabus. It cost about 4p but you'd really want to hate your life to do that to yourself.

    Ah Megabus. Used them for a trip down to London once. Paid a pound and I still think I was robbed.


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    #17
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Tired Gardener wrote: »
    The train prices are utterly ridiculous in the UK. I lived there for most of my life and rarely used the trains due to the price. A train from Leeds to Manchester Airport would be about €38 for an hour journey. I can get from Dublin to Sligo for about €18, and that is a 3 hour journey.

    If you are buying tickets in the UK then buy them from the operators website, do not buy them from a third party website such as Trainline or others because you will end up paying more, as they charge fees and various little extras.

    Also booking your ticket in advance if possible, will save you a lot of money, for example, when I went Manchester Airport to Leeds last year, I paid £12.40 for an advance Airport ticket and that's not even the lowest tier of tickets. It's valid for up to three hours after booked time.


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    #18
    Lewis_Benson
    Registered Users Posts: 1,881 ✭✭✭Lewis_Benson


    lawred2 wrote: »
    Would have thought 35 pounds London to Edinburgh was pretty reasonable myself

    I would even say that's dirt cheap.


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    #19
    dowlingm
    Registered Users Posts: 5,309 ✭✭✭dowlingm


    Absolute cheapest/restricted midweek fare Toronto-Montreal return (5hr+, 542km) is equivalent to 91 pounds. Fastest train speed is 95mph where track permits.


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    #20
    LuckyLloyd
    Registered Users Posts: 36,125 ✭✭✭✭LuckyLloyd


    Privatisation didn’t work. A failed ideological folly.


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    #21
    theteal
    Registered Users Posts: 7,593 ✭✭✭theteal


    Sagats_knee wrote: »
    I’m on TFL (transport for London) and spend about 110 a month going to work on the tube. The missus spends 290 and her journey is half mine, but into zone 1 so figures.

    Moving out of London to save money on rent can mean paying 5-11k a year (each) to get to work in London. So no point.

    At the extreme end of the scale It’s possible to live in Leicester and work in London, only 1 hour on the train which is incredible. However a season ticket is around 11k last time i checked. A more common journey is Reading to London which is about 4 k. Still madness.

    I though the very same once upon a time. Amazing what an expanding family and a change of priorities can do.

    I'm out in the Essex badlands, 30-35 minute train to Stratford, if I got the ticket with the full zones it would be closer to 5k. It's worth it for the fresh air, better quality of life, bigger house, smaller mortgage, lack of knife crime etc. Thankfully I work from home a fair bit these days so my annual train costs are probably just over half that of the annual ticket.


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    #22
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,865 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Are commuting rail costs from a similar distance in Ireland cheaper than similar distance in UK.(Annual card).Sorry I obviously haven't done any research, but I just wondered. The only thing I know about is TaxSaver. But still wonder.


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    #23
    Sagats_knee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭Sagats_knee


    theteal wrote: »
    I though the very same once upon a time. Amazing what an expanding family and a change of priorities can do.

    I'm out in the Essex badlands, 30-35 minute train to Stratford, if I got the ticket with the full zones it would be closer to 5k. It's worth it for the fresh air, better quality of life, bigger house, smaller mortgage, lack of knife crime etc. Thankfully I work from home a fair bit these days so my annual train costs are probably just over half that of the annual ticket.

    I hear you. I do think the rail fairs are ridiculous but I still plan on moving out of London and commuting in when it comes to the time to buy a house, I’m just trying to find the right town. I was looking at Essex. The Colchester line seems to have a few nice towns.


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    #24
    Sagats_knee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭Sagats_knee


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Are commuting rail costs from a similar distance in Ireland cheaper than similar distance in UK.(Annual card).Sorry I obviously haven't done any research, but I just wondered. The only thing I know about is TaxSaver. But still wonder.

    In my experience yes, much cheaper. Not sure about annual prices but I used to do Dublin to Kildare every day which was capped at 20 euro a week including buses (5-6 years ago).

    That’s roughly the same distance as Ealing (West London) to Slough. A weekly ticket costs 51 pounds. (Around 60 euro). That’s not including buses.

    Another comparison is on the tube within TFL zones (Transport for London), a similar distance being Ealing to Liverpool St. is 33 pounds a week (around 39 euro). Not including buses.

    So either way you’re looking at between double and triple the price in the south east for rail travel.


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    #25
    theteal
    Registered Users Posts: 7,593 ✭✭✭theteal


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Are commuting rail costs from a similar distance in Ireland cheaper than similar distance in UK.(Annual card).Sorry I obviously haven't done any research, but I just wondered. The only thing I know about is TaxSaver. But still wonder.

    Is that basically an annual ticket that you don't pay tax on?

    Most companies over here will do a season ticket loan for an annual rail ticket but the repayments come from your wages after tax.

    Sagats_knee wrote: »
    I hear you. I do think the rail fairs are ridiculous but I still plan on moving out of London and commuting in when it comes to the time to buy a house, I’m just trying to find the right town. I was looking at Essex. The Colchester line seems to have a few nice towns.

    We have friends in Kelveden along that line, a bit far out but definitely a nice place. Chelmsford is good too, decent for a night out. Colchester itself, not so much.


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    #26
    Das Reich
    Registered Users Posts: 736 ✭✭✭Das Reich


    I remember when I lived in Italy, from Rome to Milan it was about 30 € many years ago. Now is about 95 € with the same sh*t service, only one time I arrived in time. In Germany I thought prices would be good but its about same prices, no point on traveling on trains.
    Tired Gardener wrote: »
    Biggest shock was when visiting Italy, very cheap, very fast, and punctual service.

    Editing my post as I read this. You must had a very lucky experience, general opinion about trains services there are the opposite, expensive, slow, never in time, dirty, and the worse of all, many people that I can't tell the origin that never pay a ticket traveling around and looking for opportunity to make their day so you have to be all the time awake watching for your belongings.


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    #27
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 11,586 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Das Reich wrote: »
    Editing my post as I read this. You must had a very lucky experience, general opinion about trains services there are the opposite, expensive, slow, never in time, dirty, and the worse of all, many people that I can't tell the origin that never pay a ticket traveling around and looking for opportunity to make their day so you have to be all the time awake watching for your belongings.

    Not sure on what trains you were going on, but I was in Italy last year and was on the Frecciarossa and Italo services on major routes and never paid more than €40 for a ticket and that was in Prima/Business.

    Appreciate though that someone who lives in the country would use different services to a tourist though so my experience might not be typical.


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    #28
    Sagats_knee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 91 ✭✭Sagats_knee


    theteal wrote: »
    We have friends in Kelveden along that line, a bit far out but definitely a nice place. Chelmsford is good too, decent for a night out. Colchester itself, not so much.

    I was looking at Kelveden, looks like a nice area but like you say a bit far out. Any commuter lines you'd recommend to look along?


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    #29
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users Posts: 15,865 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    theteal wrote: »
    Is that basically an annual ticket that you don't pay tax on?

    It is a salary sacrifice thing. So you pay for your ticket through payroll. The price of your ticket is reduced by the amount of tax you would have paid on salary. Obviously more attractive to those on the higher tax rate.


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    #30
    theteal
    Registered Users Posts: 7,593 ✭✭✭theteal


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    theteal wrote: »
    Is that basically an annual ticket that you don't pay tax on?

    It is a salary sacrifice thing. So you pay for your ticket through payroll. The price of your ticket is reduced by the amount of tax you would have paid on salary. Obviously more attractive to those on the higher tax rate.

    Ok thanks, yeah nothing like that here, it's just a loan from the company, you pay it back from your salary after tax


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    #31
    theteal
    Registered Users Posts: 7,593 ✭✭✭theteal


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »

    It is a salary sacrifice thing. So you pay for your ticket through payroll. The price of your ticket is reduced by the amount of tax you would have paid on salary. Obviously more attractive to those on the higher tax rate.

    Ok thanks, yeah nothing like that here, it's just a loan from the company, you pay it back from your salary after tax


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