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Violent Protests In Hong Kong.

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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 11,215 ✭✭✭✭Suckit


    You know the government serves the people right? And not the other way around.

    Do you believe that the majority of people in Hong Kong do not want universal suffrage?
    I remember a couple of years ago a poll was taken and it was largely the minority that wanted independence from China, the (large) majority were against it.

    Not sure how that translates 2 or 3 years later and with the protests though.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,343 ✭✭✭dwayneshintzy


    Saying the police have been "too restrained" is ridiculous. There's plenty of evidence they've been anything but. The protests have been a widely popular movement, there were millions peacefully demonstrating on the streets. They were ignored by Carrie Lam until the protests starting becoming more radical and violent.

    HK people don't support the police in this, they are not restrained nor are they widely popular. They're widely seen as dishonest and out of control, in fact. Their actions at CUHK last night only added to this feeling.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 310 ✭✭BlackandGreen


    I'm more in tune with what is going on there than you, my friend. So don't call me ignorant. I've lived in Hong Kong for 3 years and have spent plenty of time in mainland China too. I speak and read Mandarin and have passable spoken Cantonese. I'm still in touch with friends and colleagues from HK on Linkedin. Now they do all have jobs and are above the age of 40, so perhaps not surprising that they don't like what these protests have become.


    Tell me young man, what is your experience of HK? No doubt a 2 week holiday and a few student buddies who share plenty of fake news with you? Fly in and eat some Dim Sum, duck and curry fish balls and you think you're some kind of expert. A visit to Mong Kok doesn't make you an expert buddy.



    Almost all of what you have posted is bullsh*t that you have read on some telegram group.

    But the police have to react to violent protestors with force. They have been too restrained and let things get too far out of control in my opinion. If there were six months of violent protest in most western nations the government would have cracked down and restored order.

    People want to get back to business and a load of smelly radical students won't hold up a whole city. The time has come to clean them up.




    Ah yes. All bull****.
    Pregnant woman pepper sprayed in the face.

    https://old.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/dv5b3q/hong_kong_police_attack_pregnant_woman/


    Collaborating with Triads.


    Do I even need to post video evidence of this? Not just the main Yuen Long attack, but prior to it the dozens upon dozens of videos of police filmed talking/briefing with the triads, arming them, the videos of the police leaving the station and closing the gates, the delayed response time.

    Is that bullshít yeah, or have you totally forgotten about Yuen Long.


    Assaulting non violent people and non violent protestors.
    https://twitter.com/wooboo230/status/1194600109851283456


    https://old.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/dur5ap/this_is_the_most_important_video_of_today_if_you/


    Business workers, shoppers etc
    https://old.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/dunp29/lunch_time_tear_gas_in_queens_road_central/


    Schoolkids hassled and threatened, schools being teargassed.
    Babies and families who have been so relentlessly subjected to tear gassing that their apartments are polluted.

    LlZ3TML.jpg



    a53zkTX.jpg

    https://twitter.com/JoshTANoble/status/1194315570193321986


    Residents in their apartments pulled out and interrogated

    ijDCwE3.png


    Rape/abortion incidents


    https://news.ltn.com.tw/news/world/breakingnews/2972517


    https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/11/09/woman-files-complaint-hong-kong-police-alleged-rape-station/


    Assaulting persons in hospital
    https://old.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/cstcp0/hospital_cctv_footage_showing_police_brutality_on/


    Entering court to re-arrest people cleared of wrongdoing
    https://www.hongkongfp.com/2019/11/05/hong-kong-govt-prosecution-spelling-error-forces-police-rearrest-defendants-court/


    The mosque incident
    https://old.reddit.com/r/HongKong/comments/dkhegn/birds_eye_view_of_hk_police_shooting_blue_tear/


    As for the deaths. Well you're aware of the incidents surrounding the deaths, some suicides, some under very suspicious circumstances at the hands of the police.





    And theres worse stuff I could be posting. If you didn't have your head buried in the sand you would be witnessing the hourly videos that are on twitter.

    And it's already confirmed the police from the mainland are already in the HKPD ranks, weapons and gear have been spotted and found for months now.

    In recents weeks its become far more obvious.



    If you want to call it all "fake news" and look for the death of "spotty students", then why don't you piss over the border to Xinjiang and live the high life under Chinese dictatorship?

    The phrase "ok boomer" is very american and I doubt you're that old, but let me phrase it in a more Irish way for you.


    shut up you ould fascist bollocks.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 310 ✭✭BlackandGreen


    Some updates from the past 24 hours


    Scuffles between white collar workers and police

    https://twitter.com/antd/status/1194488303715635204?s=19
    Some opinions and a mouthy unhappy white woman. I like how she calls them "afraid" for wearing masks. Wouldn't you be afraid with all the chinese facial recognition software in use?

    https://twitter.com/laurelchor/status/1194654398254739457
    Black clad protestor fell from height, pronounced dead.

    https://twitter.com/ariahychen/status/1194657778985340928
    University semester finished and classes cancelled a month early.
    Mainland students assisted in leaving by police.

    https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-50400338

    President of Taiwan, Tsai ing-wen's comments on the increasing authoritarian actions
    nxpTsmP.jpg


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,005 ✭✭✭joseywhales


    Suckit wrote: »
    I remember a couple of years ago a poll was taken and it was largely the minority that wanted independence from China, the (large) majority were against it.

    Not sure how that translates 2 or 3 years later and with the protests though.

    But this is conflating two very different things.

    They may want to remain or not.

    That is not related to whether they want the right to choose. Right now their votes are just opinion polls and carry very little weight. I can want democracy and not want independence.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 11,215 ✭✭✭✭Suckit


    But this is conflating two very different things.

    They may want to remain or not.

    That is not related to whether they want the right to choose. Right now their votes are just opinion polls and carry very little weight. I can want democracy and not want independence.


    You could also want independence and not want democracy.

    I was just pointing out that I had read an article a few years ago that had stats from back then.

    I doubt that the people who did not want independence fought much in these protests initially, but maybe now some of their opinions are different.
    That article was written during the riots and protests a few years ago, so it was over similar circumstances.

    I think it was more focused on the 50 year rule.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,928 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    I'm more in tune with what is going on there than you, my friend. So don't call me ignorant. I've lived in Hong Kong for 3 years and have spent plenty of time in mainland China too. I speak and read Mandarin and have passable spoken Cantonese. I'm still in touch with friends and colleagues from HK on Linkedin. Now they do all have jobs and are above the age of 40, so perhaps not surprising that they don't like what these protests have become.


    Tell me young man, what is your experience of HK? No doubt a 2 week holiday and a few student buddies who share plenty of fake news with you? Fly in and eat some Dim Sum, duck and curry fish balls and you think you're some kind of expert. A visit to Mong Kok doesn't make you an expert buddy.



    Almost all of what you have posted is bullsh*t that you have read on some telegram group.

    But the police have to react to violent protestors with force. They have been too restrained and let things get too far out of control in my opinion. If there were six months of violent protest in most western nations the government would have cracked down and restored order.

    People want to get back to business and a load of smelly radical students won't hold up a whole city. The time has come to clean them up.

    the police have not been restrained at any time, they have been 100% violent right from the start, it is they who are out of control.
    there are no smelly radical students involved in the protests, there are students, workers, and all sorts involved in these vital protests to protect hk and it's way of life, culture and independence from the brutality of the evil abomination that is the communist party of china.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!



  • Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    the police have not been restrained at any time, they have been 100% violent right from the start, it is they who are out of control.
    there are no smelly radical students involved in the protests, there are students, workers, and all sorts involved in these vital protests to protect hk and it's way of life, culture and independence from the brutality of the evil abomination that is the communist party of china.

    There is an extremely nasty element involved in the protests who are quite prepared to beat the living crap out of anyone they don't like the look, or sound, of. I'd happily wager that they are much the same people I saw screaming at mothers out shopping with their kids a few years back at Sheung Shui (and they wore masks then, too). I do not see how that has anything to do with 'the brutality of the evil abomination that is the communist party of china'.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,343 ✭✭✭dwayneshintzy


    You don't see how any of these protests are against the encroachment of Communist party rule in HK???


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    You don't see how any of these protests are against the encroachment of Communist party rule in HK???

    That's not what I said though, is it? I said there is a nasty element to the protesters that has nothing to do with 'the communist party in china'.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 28,928 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    pauldla wrote: »
    That's not what I said though, is it? I said there is a nasty element to the protesters that has nothing to do with 'the communist party in china'.

    to be fair i am not sure that we can say that they don't have anything to do with the chinese government.
    it is possible that they could be infiltrators sent from the mainland to discredit the protests. i certainly wouldn't put it passed the chinese government to do that.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!





  • Yeah screw democracy and freedom, what did it ever do for us eh? We will all be better off as slaves.

    You might try living in China before making such a comment. I've been here on the mainland for 11 years, and I've seen very little brutality by the Chinese government. No slavery. In all honesty, I've seen worse from European police. Is everything in China wonderful? Nope. But then, neither is it wonderful anywhere else. And western democracy is a sham. It's falling apart at the seams.

    The transition is going to happen. Nothing is going to stop it. The Western nations are not going to intervene, and even if they did, the PRC wouldn't back down. HK is part of China and an essential piece of their national identity. The protesters are simply making the transition worse for everyone there. It was well known that the Chinese government would renege on many of their agreements. They always do. It's a matter of saving what you can, and any expectation of gaining more than that, is pure folly.
    to be fair i am not sure that we can say that they don't have anything to do with the chinese government.
    it is possible that they could be infiltrators sent from the mainland to discredit the protests. i certainly wouldn't put it passed the chinese government to do that.

    Funnily enough, that's what most Chinese people think about the protesters. That they're sponsored by the US and other nations to cause trouble for China. My students all have VPNs, and have watched western news media reports.. they still think most of the trouble is due to western agitators, and they genuinely believe in harsh treatment of the protesters who turn to violence.
    the police have not been restrained at any time, they have been 100% violent right from the start, it is they who are out of control.

    Except that, for a time, there were no violent clashes with the protesters, and the police were in control. That changed, obviously. Who is to blame? No idea. Personally I suspect the police were told to make an example, with the situation getting out of hand.... along with the protesters thinking themselves losing public opinion (which they have) and wanted to make some martyrs.
    there are no smelly radical students involved in the protests, there are students, workers, and all sorts involved in these vital protests to protect hk and it's way of life, culture and independence from the brutality of the evil abomination that is the communist party of china.

    HK independence was never going to happen. It's Chinese soil, and the Chinese will fight anyone who wants to take it away from them. If any of you really cared about the people of HK, you'd be encouraging the protesters to settle everything peacefully, and accept the merge into mainland China. If the Chinese government manage to save face on this debacle, then HK'rs may get some kind of favors that the rest of China doesn't get but they won't have them forever.

    Resistance will simply evaporate any goodwill, and the Chinese will rule HK with an iron fist, and brutal expediency. It's obvious that many posters here have never tried to understand modern Chinese culture, because you're complaining about behavior that is low key compared to their normal attitude to resistance. Further resistance will generate harsher responses from Beijing. That's a given.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,913 ✭✭✭Pintman Paddy Losty


    Well said Daisy Clean Frisbee. 100% agree with what you have posted.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,343 ✭✭✭dwayneshintzy


    The protests are not about HK independence, and while a portion of protestors may be pro-independence, that's nowhere in the five demands. I don't know where posters on here are getting their information that the protests generally lack public support, and that the HK public is behind the police. Telling Hong Kong people to "accept the merge into Mainland China" is absolutely ridiculous, though.

    I personally think that a genuinely independent inquiry into police actions, and Carrie Lam's resignation, will be enough to cause the protests to fizzle out.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,381 ✭✭✭Yurt2


    The protests are not about HK independence, and while a portion of protestors may be pro-independence, that's nowhere in the five demands. I don't know where posters on here are getting their information that the protests generally lack public support, and that the HK public is behind the police. Telling Hong Kong people to "accept the merge into Mainland China" is absolutely ridiculous, though.

    I personally think that a genuinely independent inquiry into police actions, and Carrie Lam's resignation, will be enough to cause the protests to fizzle out.


    I think the genie is out of the bottle though, with the demand for universal suffrage being particular vociferous. Lam's resignation will be followed by another handpicked stooge of Beijing.

    For me, universal suffrage is a universal value; and anyone demanding it deserves support.

    There are political solutions on the table for Beijing, they're just afraid they'll look weak if they give them to the Hong Kong people (and I think Xi's position is weaker than people from the outside would imagine - there will be different schools of thought in the party as to how he's handling this. The party is not a monolith, and many within it could well be thinking he's screwing this up).


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    to be fair i am not sure that we can say that they don't have anything to do with the chinese government.
    it is possible that they could be infiltrators sent from the mainland to discredit the protests. i certainly wouldn't put it passed the chinese government to do that.

    Well, one can say all sorts of things, but you won't do anyone any favours by presenting the protesters as noble democrats fighting off the evil brutal party. A portion of what's happening is simple prejudice against Mainlanders, which is turning very ugly and for which there most certainly is form (as I mentioned above, masked yahoos screaming at mothers with their kids at shopping centres etc)
    You might try living in China before making such a comment. I've been here on the mainland for 11 years, and I've seen very little brutality by the Chinese government. No slavery. In all honesty, I've seen worse from European police. Is everything in China wonderful? Nope. But then, neither is it wonderful anywhere else. And western democracy is a sham. It's falling apart at the seams.

    ...

    Yep. I've been here 18 years now, and I have seen people having screaming arguments with the police - and I mean the police, not the local chengguan - the likes of which would earn you a night in the station at home.


  • Registered Users Posts: 28,928 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    You might try living in China before making such a comment. I've been here on the mainland for 11 years, and I've seen very little brutality by the Chinese government. No slavery. In all honesty, I've seen worse from European police. Is everything in China wonderful? Nope. But then, neither is it wonderful anywhere else. And western democracy is a sham. It's falling apart at the seams.

    The transition is going to happen. Nothing is going to stop it. The Western nations are not going to intervene, and even if they did, the PRC wouldn't back down. HK is part of China and an essential piece of their national identity. The protesters are simply making the transition worse for everyone there. It was well known that the Chinese government would renege on many of their agreements. They always do. It's a matter of saving what you can, and any expectation of gaining more than that, is pure folly.



    Funnily enough, that's what most Chinese people think about the protesters. That they're sponsored by the US and other nations to cause trouble for China. My students all have VPNs, and have watched western news media reports.. they still think most of the trouble is due to western agitators, and they genuinely believe in harsh treatment of the protesters who turn to violence.



    Except that, for a time, there were no violent clashes with the protesters, and the police were in control. That changed, obviously. Who is to blame? No idea. Personally I suspect the police were told to make an example, with the situation getting out of hand.... along with the protesters thinking themselves losing public opinion (which they have) and wanted to make some martyrs.



    HK independence was never going to happen. It's Chinese soil, and the Chinese will fight anyone who wants to take it away from them. If any of you really cared about the people of HK, you'd be encouraging the protesters to settle everything peacefully, and accept the merge into mainland China. If the Chinese government manage to save face on this debacle, then HK'rs may get some kind of favors that the rest of China doesn't get but they won't have them forever.

    Resistance will simply evaporate any goodwill, and the Chinese will rule HK with an iron fist, and brutal expediency. It's obvious that many posters here have never tried to understand modern Chinese culture, because you're complaining about behavior that is low key compared to their normal attitude to resistance. Further resistance will generate harsher responses from Beijing. That's a given.

    irrelevant. the protests are justified.
    chinese people do not criticise their government for fear of repercussions, a very justified fear given the mass disappearences and consentration camps.
    when china do start slaughtering, it will only be the chinese government showing themselves up, and the world will have sympathy for the protesters, just like quite a lot of the public within hk have sympathy for them.
    the people are right to try and do whatever to stop the erosion of hk's status.

    shut down alcohol action ireland now! end MUP today!





  • pauldla wrote:
    Yep. I've been here 18 years now, and I have seen people having screaming arguments with the police - and I mean the police, not the local chengguan - the likes of which would earn you a night in the station at home.

    Exactly. Many westerners have a very warped view as to what life is like in China. Chinese people can get away with many types of behavior. Admittedly, most of that comes down to personal wealth and influence, but local people will often confront both official police and chengguan in public places.

    While not as obvious as Japanese culture, there is a system of behavior here. People know what they can generally get away with. There are exceptions but for the most part, I've seen very little aggressive behavior by the police or government.




  • The protests are not about HK independence, and while a portion of protestors may be pro-independence, that's nowhere in the five demands. I don't know where posters on here are getting their information that the protests generally lack public support, and that the HK public is behind the police.

    Personally, I was responding to the posters talking about independence and freedom in HK. It's part of China now. Such things are a pipe-dream.

    As for lacking support, I'm going by conversations with both 'foreigners', and Chinese nationals I know living there. They could be wrong. I suspect though that they're right about most normal people just wanting it all to stop.
    Telling Hong Kong people to "accept the merge into Mainland China" is absolutely ridiculous, though.

    The realistic alternative being? I mean, seriously... what is the alternative?
    I personally think that a genuinely independent inquiry into police actions, and Carrie Lam's resignation, will be enough to cause the protests to fizzle out.

    Not. Going. To. Happen.

    They might allow such a thing to be formed and then they'll interfere at every stage of the investigation, ultimately making the police innocent.. They might offer up a sacrificial lamb but, I doubt too many people will be impressed by that on the mainland. The fact that you're suggesting it shows that you're missing a core element of Chinese culture. Don't accept responsibility for other peoples mistakes, and don't lose face with other Chinese people.

    You're also missing the support that mainland Chinese people have for the government in dealing with this. I haven't seen such showing of support in years. Usually, they're quite skeptical of Beijing's motives, but not now.


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,124 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    the police have not been restrained at any time, they have been 100% violent right from the start, it is they who are out of control.
    there are no smelly radical students involved in the protests, there are students, workers, and all sorts involved in these vital protests to protect hk and it's way of life, culture and independence from the brutality of the evil abomination that is the communist party of china.

    They don't need to be defended, but don't smear them with untrue things that warrant factchecking.


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  • irrelevant. the protests are justified.

    Peaceful protests are justified. The moment that it turned violent (regardless of who started it), they should have disappeared, and started the protests again at a later stage. Promises were broken. That's a justification. Agreed.
    chinese people do not criticise their government for fear of repercussions, a very justified fear given the mass disappearences and consentration camps.

    Chinese people criticise their government every day. They're just careful how they do so. It's a totalitarian police state with a showpiece constitution. What? You expect me to say otherwise?

    Are you really applying western standards to China?
    when china do start slaughtering, it will only be the chinese government showing themselves up, and the world will have sympathy for the protesters, just like quite a lot of the public within hk have sympathy for them.
    the people are right to try and do whatever to stop the erosion of hk's status.

    Right. Sympathy. Gotcha. So... completely worthless then. And HK's status is what the Chinese government deems it to be. It's Chinese territory. :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,124 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Chinese people criticise their government every day. They're just careful how they do so. It's a totalitarian police state with a showpiece constitution. What? You expect me to say otherwise?
    chinese people do not criticise their government for fear of repercussions, a very justified fear given the mass disappearences and consentration camps.

    Both talking around the same bush. Chinese people do not openly criticize their government often for fear of reprisal we could all agree.




  • Overheal wrote: »
    Both talking around the same bush. Chinese people do not openly criticize their government often for fear of reprisal we could all agree.

    Not really. Chinese culture is... layered. You have the culture from the peoples congress through to 1978, and then modern Chinese culture. And then too, there is the link to Ancient Chinese culture, which while, severed in many ways by the cultural revolution, retained many attributes/behaviors.

    One of those behaviors is... Silence. Not involving yourself in other peoples affairs. Gossiping is extremely common here among very close friends and family, but public discussion is extremely frowned upon (unless it's about foreigners). That's been the case going back to the various dynasties. You'll see people shouting at each other on the streets, and such, but matters of importance are rarely aired publicly unless there's a definite purpose in mind. An object lesson of sorts. (It's one of the reasons why relationship breakups and engagements are often done in public places.)

    Which is why comparing the western manner of criticizing government policy with the Chinese lack of the same is... well.. ignorant of their culture. The common reason put forward is fear of the government. That's certainly a factor for some... but for others, criticism happens within their circles, and then passed to an authority figure who, then passes it through the friendship network of alliances and marriages to a more official personage. The danger is in making your objections too public before it's been "approved" by someone on the inside.. not necessarily a government official but someone who knows the system well.

    China is just different. The power dynamics are incredibly different to a western nation especially once culture and history is factored in. They're a brutal regime at times. That's definitely true, but then so too, was every other government the Chinese ever had. Those that weren't failed very quickly.


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    Not really. Chinese culture is... layered. You have the culture from the peoples congress through to 1978, and then modern Chinese culture. And then too, there is the link to Ancient Chinese culture, which while, severed in many ways by the cultural revolution, retained many attributes/behaviors.

    One of those behaviors is... Silence. Not involving yourself in other peoples affairs. Gossiping is extremely common here among very close friends and family, but public discussion is extremely frowned upon (unless it's about foreigners). That's been the case going back to the various dynasties. You'll see people shouting at each other on the streets, and such, but matters of importance are rarely aired publicly unless there's a definite purpose in mind. An object lesson of sorts. (It's one of the reasons why relationship breakups and engagements are often done in public places.)

    Which is why comparing the western manner of criticizing government policy with the Chinese lack of the same is... well.. ignorant of their culture. The common reason put forward is fear of the government. That's certainly a factor for some... but for others, criticism happens within their circles, and then passed to an authority figure who, then passes it through the friendship network of alliances and marriages to a more official personage. The danger is in making your objections too public before it's been "approved" by someone on the inside.. not necessarily a government official but someone who knows the system well.

    China is just different. The power dynamics are incredibly different to a western nation especially once culture and history is factored in. They're a brutal regime at times. That's definitely true, but then so too, was every other government the Chinese ever had. Those that weren't failed very quickly.

    Nail on head. As a society it can be a hell of a lot more subtle, and a hell of a lot more nuanced, than can first seem to the eye.


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,124 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    My OH reads piles of translated Chinese pulp on the internet and yeah she's told me before they seem to be a lot different going by the culture in their novella. Lots of silent judging of people, paranoia, and everyone seems to have ulterior self-motives - but I always just dismiss that as the drama she likes to read :P




  • Overheal wrote: »
    My OH reads piles of translated Chinese pulp on the internet and yeah she's told me before they seem to be a lot different going by the culture in their novella. Lots of silent judging of people, paranoia, and everyone seems to have ulterior self-motives - but I always just dismiss that as the drama she likes to read :P

    The paranoia is a throwback to the cultural revolution... families turning against each other. It's not really a factor in most Chinese people today, except for the older people. Still, anyone with major power in China will be extremely paranoid... and very silent. Young people will refer to the paranoia as a way to remember that all the changes are only on the surface. A superficial change, and a reminder to be careful.

    The judging... yup. Definitely. Standards of behavior are very important here. But then, while homosexuality is illegal, people are openly gay in universities. It's a strange mix of flouting laws and obeying tradition.

    As for ulterior self-motives, again, yes. Every relationship involves some kind of profit. It could be monetary, influence, being associated, learning a language, etc. Chinese people are generally very practical.. and even with friends I have for over a decade, I couldn't say I trust them completely. They can turn on a needle point. (topics like Taiwan are the easiest way to see someone change from being reasonable, to hostile in a very emotional way)

    I have a friend who paints, and she became very popular quickly. She hasn't released a painting in over a decade. She makes money by making friends. They pay her for the associated legitimacy and cultural association she brings them. There's nothing sexual in it. It's just a profitable relationship.

    This is something I find most westerners who have never lived here fail to understand. They apply western attitudes to friendship, and trust to Chinese people, simply assuming they're universal. They're not. Same with the idea of speaking in public or a host of other behaviors.

    The interesting thing is that I feel more free in China than I do in Europe. European countries are so regulated and controlled. You need a qualification to do anything or hire someone with the necessary qualification. Food must be approved as being safe, as does so many other facets of lifestyle. Sure, it's healthier, but.. not terribly free either. IMHO westerners ignore that their own lives are heavily regulated, and pretend that their system is so much better than others. I used to think that Ireland was better because I could buy the land there when I bought my house, then realized that if I didn't pay the host of taxes, I wouldn't retain the land. We blind-sight ourselves to so much when we stay within western culture all the time, and don't look from the outside in.

    And before anyone jumps in.. Yes, China is a totalitarian regime with brutal tactics. European countries aren't. :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,343 ✭✭✭dwayneshintzy


    Personally, I was responding to the posters talking about independence and freedom in HK. It's part of China now. Such things are a pipe-dream.

    As for lacking support, I'm going by conversations with both 'foreigners', and Chinese nationals I know living there. They could be wrong. I suspect though that they're right about most normal people just wanting it all to stop.



    The realistic alternative being? I mean, seriously... what is the alternative?



    Not. Going. To. Happen.

    They might allow such a thing to be formed and then they'll interfere at every stage of the investigation, ultimately making the police innocent.. They might offer up a sacrificial lamb but, I doubt too many people will be impressed by that on the mainland. The fact that you're suggesting it shows that you're missing a core element of Chinese culture. Don't accept responsibility for other peoples mistakes, and don't lose face with other Chinese people.

    You're also missing the support that mainland Chinese people have for the government in dealing with this. I haven't seen such showing of support in years. Usually, they're quite skeptical of Beijing's motives, but not now.
    When you say Chinese nationals, are you referring to HK locals or mainland citizens you know living in HK?


    Your persepctive on this seems very, very mainland focused. Which is fair enough, if that's where you live and what you're hearing every day. I'm speaking as someone who lives in HK, and the notion that there isn't support for the protests, or that there isn't a generally high level of anger towards the police, isn't something I'd agree with or see every day. You're right, the view that HK will be subsumed into being just another mainland city and that HK citizens should just put up with it IS a generally held mainland view. I don't think that means it's something HK people should simply welcome in resignation as a result.


  • Registered Users Posts: 81,124 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I have a friend who paints, and she became very popular quickly. She hasn't released a painting in over a decade. She makes money by making friends. They pay her for the associated legitimacy and cultural association she brings them. There's nothing sexual in it. It's just a profitable relationship.

    That's fascinating, so they are basically her Patrons?

    I mean in the west we kinda have Patreon now :P but not this "hey look my friends a painter" self-aggrandizement gig




  • When you say Chinese nationals, are you referring to HK locals or mainland citizens you know living in HK?

    Locals born in HK who consider themselves to be Chinese nationals.
    Your persepctive on this seems very, very mainland focused. Which is fair enough, if that's where you live and what you're hearing every day.

    Yup. Indeed I am. I visit HK sometimes, and I've lived in Shenzhen before, but I haven't spent any extended periods in HK. My knowledge of HK is second hand.
    I'm speaking as someone who lives in HK, and the notion that there isn't support for the protests, or that there isn't a generally high level of anger towards the police, isn't something I'd agree with or see every day. You're right, the view that HK will be subsumed into being just another mainland city and that HK citizens should just put up with it IS a generally held mainland view. I don't think that means it's something HK people should simply welcome in resignation as a result.

    Fair enough... but there's a difference between welcoming and accepting.

    This is what I don't get about this thread. The assumption that there are some other options or that the protests will create a different positive situation. There isn't and they won't. It goes everything that the Chinese government and Chinese culture stands for. Acceptance and working within the system to change things is the only real possible process. Bribery, and gaining favors which might lead to better conditions. HK had political capital with Beijing, but they're losing it rather quickly, because they're not using it the way Chinese people would. Instead it's being squandered in protests and superficial gestures of western solidarity.

    Being an economic center is a favorable factor, but even if HK was like Northern Ireland, they'd take it back without hesitation. The Chinese economy will absorb any loss in revenue should HK lose it's financial status, and TBH the attitude here is that China would be better served focusing on Asian relationships rather than pandering to western nations or western corporations.

    HK locals should realise that their essential importance died with the takeover. Beijing is looking forward to Taiwan now, and they're not going to waste time negotiating for something they already have, unless they can offer something that encourages Taiwan to join with China. (this debacle with HK has basically screwed the peaceful way for Taiwan to return)

    Someone earlier spoke about Xi being weak, and that other elements within the Chinese government might take advantage. It won't happen because Xi has the backing of the military and they're the true power in China. Xi promised the return of Taiwan.. peacefully or by force. So, that's the focus now.

    Hk is a sideshow to Beijing.. although it could quickly become an embarrassment... which would be very unfortunate for anyone living there. Especially if they're seen as the reason for China losing Taiwan (being a convenient scapegoat for responsibility)


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  • Overheal wrote: »
    That's fascinating, so they are basically her Patrons?

    I mean in the west we kinda have Patreon now :P but not this "hey look my friends a painter" self-aggrandizement gig

    Yup. They gain credibility because she introduces her friends to him. She's often seen with men who have loads of money, but might come from the countryside. Money but no class or city based connections. She makes very good money, and also gains many types of protection.

    The Chinese have a mistress culture here. Most times it's a sexual relationship between a wealthy man and a younger woman (or rich woman, younger man). Other times though it's based not on sex but some other quality that the man can receive. A male friend of mine is happily married, loves his wife, and has two mistresses. One is particularly beautiful and he takes her to Business dinners. The second is a daughter of a very high party official in Xi'an. He takes her to State/Party meetings or dinners. To my knowledge, he's never had sex with either one, being more of a father to them. He gives them both money, an apartment each, car with driver, security, etc. However, that kind of situation is less common, and more in line with older generations. Most such relationships are sexual in nature, and about gaining respect by 'owning' a beautiful woman..

    It's a bizarre culture at times. Very interesting though.


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